each is to die of their own sins

Stephen63 · Jul 9, 2013

True that, RedTent. ANY activity in christianity can be done with a legalist mindset. The problem is those that do don't know they're doing it.

Revelation 2:1-5
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; [SUP]2 [/SUP]I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: [SUP]3 [/SUP]And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

This is a good example of legalism. All good works, & no love. Jesus was ready to shut them down, once & for all.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jul 9, 2013

zone said:

The Pelagian Heretik Zechariah 3:4

The angel said to Joshua, "Take off your filthy garments and purify your heart". Then he said to Joshua, "See, you have made yourself pure; Come and grovel before me and I will think about forgiving your sin."

Skinski7 · Jul 9, 2013

homwardbound said:

No they are not because what they teach omits the PURGING OF THE CONSCIENCE whereby the heart is made pure.

This is why the doctrine they uphold treats the blood as a cloak for an ongoing "struggle" with defilement.

This is why modern Pastors will assure a pornography addict that they are saved so long as they "trust in Jesus" despite the ongoing service to their addiction.

ACTUAL freedom from sin and the actual state of salvation are disconnected under this error. The cross is viewed as a "provision" one trusts in and the "crucifixion of the flesh" in repentance is simply not taught. This is why these people REFUSE to discuss heart purity. Look at all the replies to my posts and try and find a single one addressing heart purity in a Christian.

Reformed Theology teaches that the heart remains defiled due to the inherent corruption due to Total Depravity thus salvation is purely a positional in nature. For example the pornography addict who "trusts in Jesus" is POSITIONALLY RIGHTEOUS whilst in ACTUALITY his heart remains defiled.

These people cannot perceive that the cross is the means to CLEANSE ONE INWARDLY. They view the cross as a JUDICIAL LEGAL cleansing. Thus it is in "sanctification" that the heart is made clean to these people which makes an allowance for the "double-minded" service of sin AND righteousness in their doctrine.

In the Bible the ongoing sanctification of a believer unto maturity has nothing to do with the heart being made clean. It has everything to do with growing in the working and understanding of God. Thus as we learn more we are able to put into effect what we learn and thus become more and more like Christ. Our discernment and understanding grows and our ignorance and foolishness is purged out.

I think I will write an article on "having ESCAPED the corruption in the world through lust" for that seems a foundation point which is completely ignored by these people.

The more I talk with pastors, local believers as well as engage on forums like this the clearer the root of error becomes.

Basically it is HEART PURITY which is completely ignored. People don't like that subject because they know their doctrine forces them to admit that the hearts of Christian's are not pure for they teach a system of "sin you will and sin you must."

Skinski7 · Jul 9, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

The filthy garments is the defilement due sin. One cannot simply undo past rebellion. This is why it is God that has to do the washing not us.

Yet what people like you do is SNIP specific verses out of the Bible in an attempt to teach that a sinner does not in fact have to confess and forsake their sin BEFORE mercy is granted.

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

That verse above is in the Bible. So is this one...

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Two very clear examples that mercy/pardon are conditioned on forsaking wickedness.

Yet you focus on this passage...

Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
Zec 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

That passage is in perfect agreement with this...

Psa 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Zec 3:4 does not mean that Joshua came before God in an active state of rebellion, no it means his sin was not hidden.

Here is the cleansing in the New Testament...

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

It is parallel. Even this verse...

Zec 3:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

Parallels of Isaiah...

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Amos wrote about those who offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving with leave...

Amo 4:2 The Lord GOD hath sworn by his holiness, that, lo, the days shall come upon you, that he will take you away with hooks, and your posterity with fishhooks.
Amo 4:3 And ye shall go out at the breaches, every cow at that which is before her; and ye shall cast them into the palace, saith the LORD.
Amo 4:4 Come to Bethel, and transgress; at Gilgal multiply transgression; and bring your sacrifices every morning, and your tithes after three years:
Amo 4:5 And offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving with leaven, and proclaim and publish the free offerings: for this liketh you, O ye children of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
Amo 4:6 And I also have given you cleanness of teeth in all your cities, and want of bread in all your places: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
Amo 4:7 And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered.
Amo 4:8 So two or three cities wandered unto one city, to drink water; but they were not satisfied: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
Amo 4:9 I have smitten you with blasting and mildew: when your gardens and your vineyards and your fig trees and your olive trees increased, the palmerworm devoured them: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
Amo 4:10 I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
Amo 4:11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.

Now let's look at the proof text you provided IN CONTEXT...

Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
Zec 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
Zec 3:5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.
Zec 3:6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
Zec 3:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
Zec 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
Zec 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Zec 3:10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

Yet you snip and present Zec 3:4 in a manner which contradicts the sentiment presented in the entire Bible. Why?

The prodigal son LEFT the pig pen BEFORE he was restored. In your example you have Joshua coming before the Lord as a "firebrand plucked out of the fire" STILL IN REBELLION.

You continually defend being able to continue in rebellion and yet remain right with God.

Elin · Jul 9, 2013

Skinski7 said:

Your answers (here) were non-responsive.

So you are still in no position to deny penal substitutionary atonement until you address the following:

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over

(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice

at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)

Careful examination of these verses by the following questions and answers regarding them
show penal substitutionary atonement.

1) What did God "pass over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?

-----Penalty on their sin was "passed over," their sin was left unpunished. (i.e., punishment = penal)

2) The "what passed over" (penalty) consisted precisely of?

-----Punishment due on their sin at the Final Judgment.

3) How did the "what passed over" (penalty) demonstrate God's justice?

-----Justice requires a penalty for law breaking.

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

-----The law-breaking of all those who believe in his propitiation for their sin (of breaking God's laws). (i.e., his sacrifice was atonement)

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

-----He paid the penalty due for their law-breaking. (i.e., the atonement was subsitutionary)

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

-----The forgiveness of my sin, purchased by Jesus' sacrifice of propitiation paying my penalty,
is applied to me only by faith in his propitiation,
and that forgiveness is salvation, from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) at the final judgment.

7) How is God both just and the one who justifies?

-----He is just in requiring a penalty for law breaking, and he is the one who justifies by providing payment of the penalty in presenting his own Son as a sacrifice of propitiation to make reparation.

The word of God in Ro 3:25-26 clearly presents penal substitutionary atonement.

Now, if you think these answers are not consistent with the text and the rest of Scripture, you must demonstrate such with responsive answers to all the questions, answers which are consistent with the text and the rest of Scripture.

Please use the Scriptures themselves in your responses, not fallacious human conjecture.

I await your explanation, consistent with examination of the text and the rest of Scripture, that shows Jesus' substitutionary atonement was not penal.

[/QUOTE]

Elin · Jul 9, 2013

OwenHeidenreich said:

Yes, all die of their own sin, but Jesus died for sin (1Co 15:3).

So whose sin did he die for?

Skinski7 · Jul 9, 2013

Me in Green

Elin said:

Your answers (here) were non-responsive.

So you are still in no position Says who? You? to deny penal substitutionary atonement until you address the following: I do deny this 400 year old doctrine which was invented by Reformers.

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over

(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice

at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)

Careful examination of these verses by the following questions and answers regarding them
show penal substitutionary atonement.

1) What did God "pass over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?

-----Penalty on their sin was "passed over," their sin was left unpunished. (i.e., punishment = penal) Under Penal Substitution the sin is not left "unpunished." In the Bible the sins are "passed over" whilst Penal Substitution teaches that "someone else" bears the punishment. Thus sins are not "passed over" but rather "transferred."

2) The "what passed over" (penalty) consisted precisely of?

-----Punishment due on their sin at the Final Judgment. The wages of sin is death. Spiritual death now whereby one is cut off from God and being thrown into the Lake of Fire at the Final Judgment.

3) How did the "what passed over" (penalty) demonstrate God's justice?

-----Justice requires a penalty for law breaking.Or a propitiatory sacrifice. What you cannot do is provide a single scripture which teaches that "Jesus paid the penalty that the sinners owes."

Anselm in the 11th century taught that the death of Christ was the means that both "divine justice" and "divine mercy" could be upheld at the very same time. With the death of Christ being greater than all the sins of men the justice of God was thus upheld whilst sins are forgiven.

The Reformers (many of whom were lawyers) took this teaching and added a "judicial punishment" aspect to it. In their mind the justice of God required that the "wrath of God" be poured out on sin. Thus they saw Jesus as being "punished by God" in the place of the sinner whereby the "wrath was satisfied in full." Thus under this teaching Jesus "paid the literal penalty due the sinner."

Thus the major difference between Satisfaction and Penal Substitution is this...

Satisfaction = Divine Justice Satisfied (ie. paid a price to offset mercy being granted)

Penal Model = Divine Wrath Satisfied (ie. paid the literal penalty whereby it is not due anymore)

It is specifically under the Penal Model that sins are not actually forgiven. They are merely transferred to the account of an innocent and that innocent is punished instead. It is logically inconsistent for one who upholds the Penal Model to claim that God forgives sins. The debt is not forgiven, it is paid by someone else. In the parable of the unforgiving servant the debt is freely forgiven which is why when that servant goes awry the debt is reinstated. Under the Penal Model the debt CANNOT be reinstated because it has already been "paid in full" (which in turn gives birth to the notion of OSAS as well as the notion of the Atonement being limited).

This "penalty being paid in full" is taught NOWHERE in the Bible which is why no-one can provide scriptures which specifically teach it. The best its promoters can do is use cryptic rhetoric which they read onto two of three isolated scriptures thus giving the impression that their doctrine is biblical.

So how was the righteousness of God declared for the remission of sins through Jesus being sort forth as a propitiatory sacrifice whereby we have faith in His blood?

Simple. Jesus was offered (Heb 9:14) without sin (4:15) being a kinsman (Num 5:8, Rom 8:3) who had overcome sin in the flesh (Rom 8:3) whereby He was found worthy (Rev 5:12) and has thus been given all authority (Joh 5:26-27), whereby He purchased (redeemed) a people (Act 20:28) without money (Isa 52:3) that we be made the righteousness of God IN Him (2Cor 5:21) whereby in that we abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2) fulfill the righteousness of the law IN us (Rom 8:4) thus it can be said that Jesus Christ gave Himself that we be redeemed from all iniquity and made pure, zealous of good works (Tit 2:14).

Due that we approach God with a true heart (Heb 10:22) via the blood of Christ (Heb 10:19) and are washed clean (Heb 10:22) whereby our consciences are purged of dead works (Heb 9:14) and all sin (1Joh 1:7) that we serve the living God (Heb 9:14, 1Pet 4:2).

Thus the death of Christ produces PURITY IN THE HEARTS of those whom God grants forgiveness and this mercy will not be used as a means to reoffend which would be a mockery of God.

Does Penal Substition have anything to do with "heart purity" being wrought in those whom are saved? Not a thing. JUstification is rooted in a pure POSITIONAL TRANSACTION as opposed to be rooted in a FAITH THAT WORKS BY LOVE in which LOVE WORKS NO ILL.

In other words there is NO GUILE in those who have been truly cleansed of their sin.

Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

-----The law-breaking of all those who believe in his propitiation for their sin (of breaking God's laws). (i.e., his sacrifice was atonement) Atonement is actually a word coined by William Tynsdale within a Penal Substitionary context. William Tynsdale was heavility influenced by Reformers like Martin Luther and thought that the word "reconciliation" did give a broad enough emphasis on what actually happened on the cross (according to the PS view). Thus he termed "At Onement" (At One Moment) or the bringing together God and man (via the forensic legal exchange).

Jesus sacrificial death reconciled the world to God for God was in Christ (2 Cor 5:19). The world is cut asunder from God and cursed via the sin of Adam but it is through the second Adam that the kingdom of God is brought to the earth and thus the door by which sinner be reconciled to God is opened. Hence...

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Thus the restoration/change/exchange/return to favour (reocnciliation) is found IN Christ. Not is a superficial legal transaction ala Penal Substition but a REAL abiding in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ whereby the HEART IS MADE PURE.

Go read Mat 5,6 and 7 where the focus is on INWARD PURITY which is premised on having a SINGLE EYE.

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

-----He paid the penalty due for their law-breaking. (i.e., the atonement was subsitutionary) Penal Substition is purely rooted in a forensic transfer. Jesus is credited with your sin and is punished in your place and you are credited with the righteousness of Christ and God counts you as just. What an abominable methodology to do away with PURITY OF HEART.

Again the death of Christ brings RECONCILIATION via the HEART TRANSFORMATION is produces in those who have faith in the blood. A REAL FAITH in the blood, a faith whereby one dies with Christ and thus approaches God in repentance and faith with a TRUE HEART seeking mercy.

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)? Faith is the "working dynamic" whereby one is found plugged into the power of God. In other words grace is God's full provision in power and faith is ABIDING in that power. This is the WORKING DYNAMIC of how salvation is wrought in an individual.

This is the WORK OF FAITH WITH POWER.

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Look at this verse how it connects FAITH and the SPRINKLING OF THE BLOOD.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Faith in the blood produces PURITY OF HEART. Trust in a forensic legal transaction does not.

-----The forgiveness of my sin, purchased by Jesus' sacrifice of propitiation paying my penalty,
is applied to me only by faith in his propitiation, Nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus "paid your penalty." You get that doctrine from men not the Bible.
and that forgiveness is salvation, from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) at the final judgment.

7) How is God both just and the one who justifies? He is just and the one who justifies because God brings about PURITY WITHIN His people. It has nothing to do with "the penalty due sin being paid." That is a MYTH.

-----He is just in requiring a penalty for law breaking, and he is the one who justifies by providing payment of the penalty in presenting his own Son as a sacrifice of propitiation to make reparation. Only according to the fiction of Penal Substitition. You can make statements like these but you cannot show it from the Bible. Not only that but you have to IGNORE the issue of HEART PURITY IN SALVATION to do so. Salvation in your theology is purely an abstract position totally disconnected from the condition of the heart.

The word of God in Ro 3:25-26 clearly presents penal substitutionary atonement. Does it really? Does it really CLEARLY present it? If Penal Substition is CLEARLY presented in Rom 3:25-26 then why doesn't it ACTUALLY "clearly" say anything like Penal Substitition?

Now, if you think these answers are not consistent with the text and the rest of Scripture, you must demonstrate such with responsive answers to all the questions, answers which are consistent with the text and the rest of Scripture. I don't have to do any such thing because I know from experience you IGNORE what I write and twist my words into strawmen whereby you refuse to directly address the specific content. I have answered your questions today on behalf of others who may read it not due of your insistance.

Please use the Scriptures themselves in your responses, not fallacious human conjecture.

I have a question for you. Does HEART PURITY bear any relation to actual SALVATION?

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

I await your explanation, consistent with examination of the text and the rest of Scripture, that shows Jesus' substitutionary atonement was not penal.

More information...

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ood-christ-ransom-not-penal-substitution.html

zone · Jul 9, 2013

Skinski7 said:

a complete disconnect - NO EXPLANATION for why Jesus was tortured AND DIED for the sins for OTHERS, and the SUBSEQUENT gift of the washing of REGENERATION (new heart)....THE HOLY SPIRIT.

God is SATISIFED by the death of His SINLESS Son but it has NOTHING TO DO WITH the sins of the people (rebels)?

Romans 5
Peace and Hope

1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wea have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And web boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but wec also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless,

Christ died for the ungodly.

7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this:

While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

10For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

what's all this Christ dying FOR others?
what's all this BLOOD shed FOR others?
what's all this DYING FOR the UNGODLY?
what's all this WHILE WE WERE STILL HIS ENEMIES Sinless Perfect Jesus DIED for us?

WHY DID HE SUFFER AND DIE?

how did THAT satisfy God - JESUS DYING TO SATISFY - WHAT?

His wrath on SIN.

who sinned?

JESUS?

i recall you saying JESUS DID SIN.
you said Jesus experienced SEXUAL LUST.

didn't you.

Concupiscence (from the Latin: con-, with + cupi, cupid - desire + -escere - suffix denoting beginning of a process or state) is often defined as an ardent, usually sensual, longing.[1] The concept is most commonly encountered in Christian theology, where it also receives the name "Fomes peccati", as the selfish human desire for an object, person, or experience.[2] For Christians, concupiscence refers to what they understand as the orientation, inclination or innate tendency of human beings to long for fleshly appetites, often associated with a desire to do things which are proscribed.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jul 9, 2013

zone said:

IMO skinski thinks Christ suffered a torturous death as a moral example of selflessness. It truly takes a sick mind to think like that.

zone · Jul 9, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

early on his sidekick and he were debating the possibility the SIN DEBT was paid TO SATAN.
he buried that quickly.

zone · Jul 9, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

ya....you have Jesus way over THERE suffering on a Cross

God way over there SATISFIED by it, having ORDAINED IT

and way over here you have a world of sinners.

the two apparently have nothing to do with each other.

ya..oh ya.....Skinski has been trying every possible combination but that horrible OFFENSE - that CHRIST DIED FOR SINNERS...and IN HIS BODY took the DEBTS we owed and DIED AND THEY WERE BURIED WITH HIM.

skinski can't STAND the idea that God CAN and DID offer up an INNOCENT in place of the wicked.

try him on Jesus being BOTH lamb and scapegoat.
see what happens.

zone · Jul 9, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

the DeSario cult upholds Judaism's rejection of Original sin:

The doctrine of original sin is totally unacceptable to Jews (as it is to Christian sects such as Baptists and Assemblies of G-d). Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted. While there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam's sin, the dominant view by far was that man sins because he is not a perfect being, and not, as Christianity teaches, because he is inherently sinful.

Judaism’s Rejection Of Original Sin

ever wonder why jews don't think they need Jesus?

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jul 9, 2013

Denial of inherited, inherent corruption (i.e. inherited sin nature) forms the basis of all self-righteousness, IMO

SarahM777 · Jul 9, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Of course it does,if one can be righteous of their own accord what do they need Jesus for? Boiled down it comes down to "I can do enough good to out weigh the bad,and because I can do that God must see that I am good enough for Him to let the rest go or to somehow appease Him." The root of it is pride,plain and simple. The message of the cross must humble us so totally and completely to remove our self and pride. God designed it do just that. Either we will be broken on the rock or He will crush us.

Skinski7 · Jul 9, 2013

Me in green.

zone said:

a complete disconnect - NO EXPLANATION for why Jesus was tortured AND DIED for the sins for OTHERS, and the SUBSEQUENT gift of the washing of REGENERATION (new heart)....THE HOLY SPIRIT. The Bible explains why...

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

He bore our sins on his body that we "being dead to sins" should live unto righteousness.

That - G2443 -hina
Probably from the same as the former part of G1438 (through the demonstrative idea; compare G3588); in order that (denoting the purpose or the result): - albeit, because, to the intent (that), lest, so as, (so) that, (for) to. Compare G3363.

Here is how Paul put it...

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Freedom from the service of sin is intrinsically tied to the death of Jesus Christ.

Look at how both Peter and Paul use the term "dead to sin" and how it relates to serving or living unto righteousness.

Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

How do the stripes of Jesus heal? Like this...

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The blood of Christ purges the conscience of sin (2Pet 1:9) whereby our works are no longer dead and thus we can serve God acceptably.

You sin the defilement of conscience that sin produces makes it impossible for one to stand uprightly before God. Adam and Eve had to hide. The blood of Christ is the means by which we can have our past transgression completely washed away in coming clean before God and being pardoned. This is why the Bible says this...

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Which is why "ongoing transgression" after being cleanses is to trample the blood.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Thus when Paul writes...

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

He is speaking of how those who have been "raised up in Christ" are "no longer walking according to course of this world" whereby one "fulfills the lusts of the flesh and the desires of the mind." They have been "quickened together with Christ" which is accessed by faithfully abiding in the word (Rom 5:2, Joh 15:3-5).

It is not anything we did but what God did IN US in that we submitted ourselves to His will.

God is SATISIFED by the death of His SINLESS Son but it has NOTHING TO DO WITH the sins of the people (rebels)? When have I ever said that the death of Christ has nothing to do with the sins of the people? The death of Christ had EVERYTHING to do with the sins of the people because it is the MEANS by which sinners may be forgiven of those sins. There is no remission without the shedding of blood.

What did not happen was "WRATH SATISFACTION" due to Jesus "PAYING THE PENALTY DUE SIN." That is the big hoax of modern theology. The Bible says NOTHING of Jesus "paying the penalty as a sinners substitute." Jesus died on BEHALF of sinners as a sin offering to God. An offering that God finds acceptable whereby those who eat the WHOLE lamb and put the blood upon their doorposts may find reprieve. The passover lamb was not "judicially punished" with the penalty due sin.

Jesus is our passover lamb who takes away the sins of the world. How does Jesus do that? By being our sin bearer who offered Himself up to God in that we can die WITH HIM whereby our sins are may be pardoned. Why does Hebrews teach that we enter into the Holy of Holies by the blood of Christ in a NEW AND LIVING WAY?

Is the "New and Living Way" trusting in a provisional legal exchange whereby one is cloaked as righteous when they are still actually filthy? Do you honestly believe that?

Do you honestly believe that the plan of God to deliver people from the dominion and bondage of sin is a change in legal status whereby God PRETENDS that people who remain inwardly defiled are pure? That kind of doctrine is reconciling God to man not reconciling man to God.

Romans 5
Peace and Hope

1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wea have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And web boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but wec also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. Indeed it is. Amen.

6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless,

Christ died for the ungodly. Yes that is right. God took the initiative and died for us when we were yet sinners. This does not mean that one is restored to favour whilst one is still in rebellion. No, the death of Christ is the method by which God brings an individual from ungodliness to godliness. It effects a total transformation of heart.

7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this:

While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! Yes HIS BLOOD for it is by His blood they we can boldly approach God seeking reconciliation with a TRUE HEART in a NEW AND LIVING WAY. There is no other way. One cannot approach God seeking reconciliation in a defiled state. Hence the need for the cross. The heart MUST be purged of sin.

10For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

what's all this Christ dying FOR others? So that we can die WITH HIM and thereby live unto righteousness. Jesus Christ came to show us the way. His entire life was an example for us to follow INCLUDING His death and resurrection.
what's all this BLOOD shed FOR others? To cleanse the heart of all sin. Jesus purchases us with His blood so that we can leave the service of sin and take up the service of righteousness.
what's all this DYING FOR the UNGODLY? God died for ungodly people in order to bring them to godliness.
what's all this WHILE WE WERE STILL HIS ENEMIES Sinless Perfect Jesus DIED for us? Yes that is right, such is the mercy of God. He did for us what we did not deserve. Yet just because Jesus died for us while we were His enemies (thus opening the door to reconciliation) DOES NOT MEAN that God forgives you whilst you are still in rebellion. The death of Christ gives is the Ministry of Reconciliation whereby the appeal is made for us to BE RECONCILED to God.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Read verse 20 above. Paul is claiming to speak on God's behalf for people to BE RECONCILED to God. Jesus was made to be sin for us that we might be "made the righteousness of God IN Him." Thus...

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

ALL THINGS. Not some things but ALL THINGS. Are "all things" made new in someone who "trusts in a provision" yet still remains "inwardly defiled"? No they are not. See what Penal Substitition doeas? It utterly denies the internal cleansing spoken of in the Bible and it its place teaches a justification rooted in the ASTRACT. I know most people don't want to see this because it forces them to examine their own salvation and that can be an unpleasant thing if one has come into the wedding feast by another means. Better to examine these things now than be shocked at the judgment.

WHY DID HE SUFFER AND DIE?

how did THAT satisfy God - JESUS DYING TO SATISFY - WHAT?

His wrath on SIN. Where does the Bible teach that Jesus "satisfied the wrath of God." The Bible does not teach it which is why you cannot cite anything. All you can do is jump around the place with rhetoric.

who sinned?

JESUS?

i recall you saying JESUS DID SIN. I never said Jesus sinned. I have said that Jesus had the same NATURAL passions and desires of the flesh that we all have. The natural passions ARE NOT sin, yielding to them in discordance to the will of God is sin.
you said Jesus experienced SEXUAL LUST. Due not being able to directly discuss the material in my posts you have to concoct fictions like this.

didn't you. Jesus would have experienced NATURAL SEXUAL DESIRE like any man but Jesus did not let those desires RULE OVER HIM.

The Bible says this...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

James is referring to the natural passions when he uses the term lust. The corruption that is in the world is THROUGH LUST because sinners YIELD to their passions for they walk carnally.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

This is why John writes...

1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Why did Eve sin?

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Eve was drawn away by the lusts of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Jesus was not drawn away.

Concupiscence (from the Latin: con-, with + cupi, cupid - desire + -escere - suffix denoting beginning of a process or state) is often defined as an ardent, usually sensual, longing.[1] The concept is most commonly encountered in Christian theology, where it also receives the name "Fomes peccati", as the selfish human desire for an object, person, or experience.[2] For Christians, concupiscence refers to what they understand as the orientation, inclination or innate tendency of human beings to long for fleshly appetites, often associated with a desire to do things which are proscribed. Satan attempted to draw Jesus away from dependency of on God by focusing the natural fleshly appetites.

Jesus was hungry...

Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

The Jews called the natural passions the Yetzer Ra and alluded it to being the "evil inclination" not evil in and of itself. The evil inclination or "temptation" (which is what we call it) was to subdued by the Yetzer Tov which was what they called the "moral conscience."

The Bible clearly says that Jesus was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are and yet was without sin.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Temptation is COMMON TO MAN.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

God told Cain...

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

When Jesus taught on adultery of the heart in Mat 5:28 he was not speaking of "natural attraction" but of a "mind set on adultery." Thus one does not necessarily have commit the outward act to sin, one can just entertain the idea with unrestrained evil thoughts. Jesus never did any such thing for He would have brought EVERY THOUGHT into subjection to the will of God, such was the mind of Christ.

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So it is a lie to imply that I said that Jesus "sinned" due to "sexually lusting" after women. Don't twist my words to try and find some angle with which to accuse me, for that is a very cunning and deceptive approach.

Instead be honest and specifically address what I write.

Skinski7 · Jul 9, 2013

SarahM777 said:

There is no life without Jesus so no need to create a strawman of "you're teaching we don't need Jesus." It is not prideful to obey God from the heart nor it is prideful to teach that we are to obey God from the heart.

This "prideful" argument is a STRAWMAN. Paul taught this...

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Were those people who "obeyed from the heart" being prideful?

Was the Prodigal Son prideful in leaving the pig pen and confessing his sin to his father?

Was Nineveh being prideful in forsaking their rebellion?

No. You objection is pure fallacy. It is concocted in desperation in order that one write something off indirectly.

As far as needing Jesus Christ, we need Him every day for it is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ in which we walk (Rom 8:2) for without Him we can do nothing (John 15:4-5).

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

SarahM777 · Jul 9, 2013

Skinski7 said:

Skinski,

Try reading it again. What did I say?

Skinski7 · Jul 9, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

The Bible doesn't teach anywhere that a "sin nature" is inherited.

That doctrine was only accepted as orthodox through the prolific influence of Augustine in the Fourth Century. Augustine used the Latin Vulgates mistranslation of this one verse...

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (KJV)

Augustine read that verse as follows...

Rom 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned. (Latin Vulgate)

That one error of "IN WHOM" which appears in the Latin (instead of "for that" or "because all" which appears in the Greek) was to Augustine the Bliblical prooftext he needed that supported the notion of an inherited sin nature associated with the flesh (dualism) which was a position he had brought over from his involvement with Neo-platonism and Manichaeism. Thus with that one error cemented in his mind he then was able to build a fatalistic theology.

With this foundation set FATALISM was accepted into church orthodoxy and the rest is history.

Here is a documentary on the issue...

Augustine and Original Sin
[video=youtube;KVQ1t5i058Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVQ1t5i058Q[/video]

Skinski7 · Jul 9, 2013

Me in green.

SarahM777 said:

A quick one liner in an attempt to steer clear of the specifics of my response?

You agree that a denial of Augustine's doctrine of Original Sin is the basis of all self righteousness hence you stated...

Of course it does,if one can be righteous of their own accord what do they need Jesus for? A denial of being "born a sinner" does not mean one can be "righteous of their own accord" it simply means that one has the CAPABILITY to YIELD TO GOD. Thus this "being righteous of one's own accord" is a fallacy. Original Sin teaches INABILITY which is why it was the root of Augustine's view of Predestination (which the Reformers teach today). Boiled down it comes down to "I can do enough good to out weigh the bad,and because I can do that God must see that I am good enough for Him to let the rest go or to somehow appease Him." No it doesn't. The notion of ABILITY teaches that one can YIELD TO GOD via being broken in godly sorrow which works a genuine repentance. It is in this broken state that we can be cleansed by the blood of Christ and thus abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ where we can serve God in an acceptable manner as we are led of the Spirit. The root of it is pride,plain and simple. Yet instead of addressing the sentiment of my last sentence which is expressed in most of my posts allusions to "pride" are raised instead. The message of the cross must humble us so totally and completely to remove our self and pride. God designed it do just that. Either we will be broken on the rock or He will crush us.

Skinski7 · Jul 9, 2013

zone said:

the DeSario cult upholds Judaism's rejection of Original sin:

The doctrine of original sin is totally unacceptable to Jews (as it is to Christian sects such as Baptists and Assemblies of G-d). Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted. While there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam's sin, the dominant view by far was that man sins because he is not a perfect being, and not, as Christianity teaches, because he is inherently sinful.

Judaism’s Rejection Of Original Sin

ever wonder why jews don't think they need Jesus?

Have you ever wondered why the early church did not teach inherited corruption but rather upheld the free agency of man?

each is to die of their own sins

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