Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?
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How condescending.
What wall? What truth have I not accepted? ('Truth' as you proclaim it?), How did Christ affect the law besides clarify and fulfill it in our stead? I never deny faith without works as long as works=fruit of the Holy Spirit working in us in conjunction with the Gospel...not Moses. Ps 119? Yes the Word of the Lord is good converting the soul. Real truth? The Holy Spirit is not real Truth but only a counterfeit? Again, blasphemy.
I am beginning to sense that many in the H R movement are devoid of the Spirit having a form of godliness but denying it's power. Reminds me of many old Roman Catholics who revel in the commandments of men, feast days, saints, and Moses while the congregants have no clue of the Gospel or the indwelling Holy Spirit.
What wall? What truth have I not accepted? ('Truth' as you proclaim it?), How did Christ affect the law besides clarify and fulfill it in our stead? I never deny faith without works as long as works=fruit of the Holy Spirit working in us in conjunction with the Gospel...not Moses. Ps 119? Yes the Word of the Lord is good converting the soul. Real truth? The Holy Spirit is not real Truth but only a counterfeit? Again, blasphemy.
I am beginning to sense that many in the H R movement are devoid of the Spirit having a form of godliness but denying it's power. Reminds me of many old Roman Catholics who revel in the commandments of men, feast days, saints, and Moses while the congregants have no clue of the Gospel or the indwelling Holy Spirit.
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I will never understand the way people think concerning the gospel.
Paul says in eph 2. We are saved by faith apart from works. Those saved were created (new creature) for good works. in other words THEY WILL PRODUCE WORK. it is not a question of if they will do works. They WILL. why? It is Gods workmanship in us which creates the way to walk (in faith) the right way. thus it is not our good works, it is God working in us.
James agrees with paul 100 % but people want to twist james around,
James is saying, we are saved by true faith. those who have true faith WILL DO THE WORKS which paul said they would do in eph 2: 10.
If they do not show these works. They prove their faith is dead (non existatnt) and thus, were NEVER SAVED. why? Because they DID NOT HAVE FAITH. (eph 2: 8-9)
if we take these two passages together, they are in complete agreement. Thae just sound different because they are directed at two different audiences (paul speaking to the legalist, james to the licentious)
Paul says in eph 2. We are saved by faith apart from works. Those saved were created (new creature) for good works. in other words THEY WILL PRODUCE WORK. it is not a question of if they will do works. They WILL. why? It is Gods workmanship in us which creates the way to walk (in faith) the right way. thus it is not our good works, it is God working in us.
James agrees with paul 100 % but people want to twist james around,
James is saying, we are saved by true faith. those who have true faith WILL DO THE WORKS which paul said they would do in eph 2: 10.
If they do not show these works. They prove their faith is dead (non existatnt) and thus, were NEVER SAVED. why? Because they DID NOT HAVE FAITH. (eph 2: 8-9)
if we take these two passages together, they are in complete agreement. Thae just sound different because they are directed at two different audiences (paul speaking to the legalist, james to the licentious)
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2 Peter 1:5-10 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
1. You sound like you took offense to these five verses that was an addition to what RedTent had said. You are going to have to ask God what He meant if there is any implication you are connected with, for it is His Word, not mine.
2. I rehearse verses all the time. How are you connected with these five verses and what post are you referring to?
2 Peter 1:5-10 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
1. You sound like you took offense to these five verses that was an addition to what RedTent had said. You are going to have to ask God what He meant if there is any implication you are connected with, for it is His Word, not mine.
2. I rehearse verses all the time. How are you connected with these five verses and what post are you referring to?
She's good. I read most of what she posts. I'm happy that you're not jumping to conclusions. We are here to learn and build each other up. Hopefully we won't feel the need to defend our view, but rather defend the whole Truth, with a capital "T"
Even though we know that Jesus doesn't need to be defended. LOL
Jude 1:3-5 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
They didn't obey the Mosaic law in sincerity. They just went through the motions, or just said the heck with that noise. One or the other.
Isaiah 1:10-15 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
And this was before the New Covenant in Christ Jesus.
Malachi 3:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Even though we know that Jesus doesn't need to be defended. LOL
Jude 1:3-5 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
They didn't obey the Mosaic law in sincerity. They just went through the motions, or just said the heck with that noise. One or the other.
Isaiah 1:10-15 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
And this was before the New Covenant in Christ Jesus.
Malachi 3:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
I am going to try again, anyway. Only God and scripture has truth. Anything anyone says that is not of scripture has to be tossed out.
The Holy Spirit, the law as Christ clarified it, Moses, Psalm 119 is ALL the real truth, in scripture, of the same God. The HS has power, that power is of God, all scripture is of God. Feast days, and what God breathed into Moses is of God. Catholic saints who were men were men, not God. Christ changed much but not one bit of God principles.
The indwelling of the HS leads us and helps us understand. You say that you have no wall, yet you speak against things of God.
The Holy Spirit, the law as Christ clarified it, Moses, Psalm 119 is ALL the real truth, in scripture, of the same God. The HS has power, that power is of God, all scripture is of God. Feast days, and what God breathed into Moses is of God. Catholic saints who were men were men, not God. Christ changed much but not one bit of God principles.
The indwelling of the HS leads us and helps us understand. You say that you have no wall, yet you speak against things of God.
I think the differences we have in understanding goes deeper than that. You love the Lord and listen with the HS, and so do I yet we see things differently! You and I need to work it out, and you say that the HS will do it, and I say we both need the HS but we also need all of scripture.
When I set myself to carefully study the OT, the man who led the class made us follow everything to Christ and the Epistles to see how Christ fulfilled. He said that all of scripture is God breathed, it all gives the same God principles, God never changes. We can't have one scripture saying one thing and another disagreeing with it. Sometimes I cried in frustration. "We are under Grace not law" "We must obey" for instance. It all does fit together, we can understand. But I learned that we can't if we get stuck on one certain verse. So you say the HS is the real truth. That is so. But it is not the end of the story. There is also, in addition, truth in Moses. It must fit together.
When I set myself to carefully study the OT, the man who led the class made us follow everything to Christ and the Epistles to see how Christ fulfilled. He said that all of scripture is God breathed, it all gives the same God principles, God never changes. We can't have one scripture saying one thing and another disagreeing with it. Sometimes I cried in frustration. "We are under Grace not law" "We must obey" for instance. It all does fit together, we can understand. But I learned that we can't if we get stuck on one certain verse. So you say the HS is the real truth. That is so. But it is not the end of the story. There is also, in addition, truth in Moses. It must fit together.
because I have emphasized the Holy Spirit in certain posts does not mean I see God's Word any less significant after all it is God's Word that reveals Him. I work under the principals of the New Testament e.g. "The law came by Moses, grace and truth by Jesus Christ", you seem to hold the ot and this teacher of yours interpretations over the nt.
Galatians 4:4-5 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
John 18:37 (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
There is a subtle untruth that is propagated in the religious sect today, that even some ministers are unaware of as they stand behind the pulpit and minister to the congregation. This is that most of the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) are not writings in Biblical history of the New Covenant Jesus fulfilled until He said;
John 19:30 (KJV) [SUP]30 [/SUP]When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Even the entire ministry of Jesus was under the Mosaic Law, defining the truth to the individual, when since Mount Sinai, the law was given to the nation of Israel.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
John 18:37 (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
There is a subtle untruth that is propagated in the religious sect today, that even some ministers are unaware of as they stand behind the pulpit and minister to the congregation. This is that most of the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) are not writings in Biblical history of the New Covenant Jesus fulfilled until He said;
John 19:30 (KJV) [SUP]30 [/SUP]When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Even the entire ministry of Jesus was under the Mosaic Law, defining the truth to the individual, when since Mount Sinai, the law was given to the nation of Israel.
I agree with the word inaugurated. Jesus is describing at the last supper what would happen the very next day, not what had happened already.
Mark 14:22-24 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
All of the ministry of Christ, before His death, was under the Old Covenant, is what I present. I've got more when the time comes. I thought it quite interesting.
A will and testament is not in effect until the testator is dead.
Hebrews 9:16-22 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Mark 14:22-24 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
All of the ministry of Christ, before His death, was under the Old Covenant, is what I present. I've got more when the time comes. I thought it quite interesting.
A will and testament is not in effect until the testator is dead.
Hebrews 9:16-22 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
I thought we were talking about a movement to make God our Father and the principles of God something we study and are permitted to follow, so Christ is a fulfillment as opposed to that Christ wiped out much of what God taught before Christ lived as a man. Constantine taught and made laws to outlaw anything the OT taught so Christ was a new God with a new religion based on Christ only. They are against that. The movement says that Christ was always part of the world and His crucifixion grew from that, was a way for us to grow. We are talking, I thought, about that not about how each church is doing that.
I go to the Nazarene Church who believes I can't relax with a glass of wine before I go to bed. I believe I can. They think I'm wrong and I think they are wrong, but I love my church and accept most of their teaching.
If there is a church whose beliefs are against what Christ taught, then being against that is wrong. But I don't believe the movement to listen closely to God the Father as He taught is wrong.
I go to the Nazarene Church who believes I can't relax with a glass of wine before I go to bed. I believe I can. They think I'm wrong and I think they are wrong, but I love my church and accept most of their teaching.
If there is a church whose beliefs are against what Christ taught, then being against that is wrong. But I don't believe the movement to listen closely to God the Father as He taught is wrong.
Don't know. Never belonged to the movement, even though I think looking into it could be very edifying. I proclaim the good new of Christ Jesus though. Got to. I like the hope in Christ Jesus that He has offered to all who trust in Him.
I would suppose however, that the annual Passover celebration, and the last supper, was the evening (after sundown) before the crucifixion of Christ, and the annual Sabbath of Passover was observed the day after Christ was crucified. That’s why they took Him off the cross, and broke the legs of the other two guys on either side of our Savior.
John 19:31-34 (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
[SUP]34 [/SUP]But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
Calculating the days then we clearly understand that Jesus was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights as Jonah was in the belly of the big fish. The weekly Sabbath was 2 days after the annual beginning Sabbath of the Passover feast.
One other thing as long as I’m on this train of thought. I found out by studying Jonah, a couple of years ago that in Hebrew, that the name Jonah is the identical word as ‘dove’. Just thought I’d share that tidbit with you.
I would suppose however, that the annual Passover celebration, and the last supper, was the evening (after sundown) before the crucifixion of Christ, and the annual Sabbath of Passover was observed the day after Christ was crucified. That’s why they took Him off the cross, and broke the legs of the other two guys on either side of our Savior.
John 19:31-34 (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
[SUP]34 [/SUP]But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
Calculating the days then we clearly understand that Jesus was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights as Jonah was in the belly of the big fish. The weekly Sabbath was 2 days after the annual beginning Sabbath of the Passover feast.
One other thing as long as I’m on this train of thought. I found out by studying Jonah, a couple of years ago that in Hebrew, that the name Jonah is the identical word as ‘dove’. Just thought I’d share that tidbit with you.
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