Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

[eternally-gratefull]

Let me approach this a little differently, if I may.

What would a good reason Jesus would have us remember it? Think about it and pray about it, and see what you can find. What lessons or encouragement could we we gain from celebrating a telling the story of Egypt's release from slavery?

Put yourself on the other side of the table for a bit and see what you can come up with.


Matt

I come up with Nothing.

Why would I need to remember that more than the true passover (christ death). Christ did not add a new ceremony or thing to do, he replaced it.

in reality,

1. Is god going to free another nation from slavery?
2. Is not God working in induviduals today? Not nations?
3. Is it not more important that we do as God says, look at the new covenant, which the first symblolized, and not the old?

Yes we can learn by reading it. But what need of we, not even of Israel, to worship this thing with a feast?

 

[zone]

Let me approach this a little differently, if I may.

What would a good reason Jesus would have us remember it? Think about it and pray about it, and see what you can find. What lessons or encouragement could we we gain from celebrating a telling the story of Egypt's release from slavery?

Put yourself on the other side of the table for a bit and see what you can come up with.


Matt

hi matt.
we know actual ancient ISRAEL was delivered from bondage (slavery; sin) in Egypt,
delivered from service to a cruel taskmaster because of transgressions (Pharaoh, satan),
we know God raised up Pharaoh to show His Power and Glory and ability to take possession of His Own according to His Own time and Way.

He made a Way (the red sea),
He baptized them into Moses (the mediator),
He led them through the wilderness (this life)
we know they grumbled and complained about His provision (manna - life giving bread from heaven)
and gave them the Law (added because of transgressions),
which covenant they broke (by works of the Law no one will be justified, rather we become aware of our SIN),

we know throughout it all He referred back time and again to the PROMISE (Christ and His dwelling in and with them forever, beginning with Pentecost).

we know that because of UNBELIEF and a preference for Egypt; comfort; and a refusal to enter in to THE PROMISED LAND based upon HIS WORD, most perished in the wilderness...they died in sin and unbelief, not having inherited the Promise (Canaan).

and?

those were very real events.
they showed His Power, His Mercy AND His severity.
unbelief = CUT OFF.

so where does that leave us?

in Canaan?

or do you live in America in 2013?

fast forward to the release from yet another tyrannical overlord due to breaking the Mosaic Covenant - the King of Babylon.

most didn't return. they CHOSE to remain in Babylon.

the elect remnant did return...and they were THERE in place, in TIME for -

Isaiah 62:11
The LORD has made proclamation to the ends of the earth: "Say to Daughter Zion, 'See, your Savior comes! See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.'"

Matthew 21:5
"Say to Daughter Zion, 'See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.'"

Luke 24:27
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

~

does Luke 24:27 tell us that when everything reached it fulfillment in Jesus the Christ we are able to UNDERSTAND now?

 

[john832]

you know.....this is nigh on EVIL.



judaizers abound, and you appear to be teaching some other gospel and some other Christ.

how dare you twist Paul's teaching.



this is the THIRD time you've been corrected on this.
apparently you didn't read (Paul's warnings) on how serious this is.
you didn't read it - if you did, it is closed to your understanding.

probably due to profaning it.

i'll leave you to your fate on this.
God have mercy on your soul.



you're on your own.



still blind.
focused on WHAT THE FEAST SIGNIFIED AND NOT HOW HE FULFILLED IT.

once again, i'll post this for any who do not understand - as for you. do as you will.

Leviticus: Seedbed of NT Theology
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/57882-leviticus-seedbed-nt-theology.html

what i find revealing is that everytime i post this expository teaching by Elin the judaizers fall SILENT.
not one word.

interesting.
go read it...then come back and tell me about unleavened bread and passover.
actually, please don't.
i reject your doctrine.



symbols?
"method"

you are in the process of falling away. anyone who listens to you deserves what they get.

the fruit of the Hebrew Roots Movement is evident.
people will not heed the warnings the Hebrews themselves got.

no, you have gentiles who willing do what the elect Hebrews did not do.

the writer wrote he (they - the apostles) were convinced of BETTER things of those who were leaving the Old and entering into the New. you don't understand it. it's blurry letters on a page to you.

apparently the HR apostates don't care what God has said about His Son.
they like animal blood on lintels and roasted sacrifices better.
Jesus was just explaining it all so they could observe it better.
without the lamb of course....that would be over the top...wouldn't it.



the Passover was fulfilled ON THE CROSS WHEN THE LAMB WAS SLAIN, and as He was laid in that TOMB.
it's over.

unless you want to recrucify Him over and over.

you weren't in Egypt...were you?
are you fearful of the death angel?

1 Corinthians 11
The Lord’s Supper
17But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. 18For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part,d 19for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 20When you come together, it is not the Lord’s supper that you eat. 21For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. 22What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.


WHEN DO CHRISTIANS COME TOGETHER AS A CHURCH?
ONCE A YEAR?
IN JERUSALEM?

goodbye.

How often do you celebrate Xmas and Ishtar? Weekly?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

How often do you celebrate Xmas and Ishtar? Weekly?

How often do you make phony caricatures? Usually always.

Xmas and Easter are holidays. The lord's supper is a memorial. Big difference...

 

[KohenMatt]

I come up with Nothing.

Why would I need to remember that more than the true passover (christ death). Christ did not add a new ceremony or thing to do, he replaced it.

in reality,

1. Is god going to free another nation from slavery?
2. Is not God working in induviduals today? Not nations?
3. Is it not more important that we do as God says, look at the new covenant, which the first symblolized, and not the old?

Yes we can learn by reading it. But what need of we, not even of Israel, to worship this thing with a feast?

Observing and Remembering Passover (not worshipping it, as you alluded to) provides us the opportunity to put ourselves in Israel's sandals, so to speak. Zone was on the right track I think, but stopped just just short of what I'm getting at.

Passover wasn't just a historical account of the deliverance of a people and their origins as a new nation. Looking back now, that can sometimes be all we see. But in reality it was much more important than that. Passover was the salvation of God physically and spiritually. It was a rebirth, it was a new identity. It was a victory not just for a moment, but for a lifetime for Israel.

Israel was delivered from the physical bonds of slavery and the spiritual slavery that came from God forgetting them. We once were in slavery to sin with no hope of freedom, no matter how much we tried or worked.

The generation that was Passed Over had been slaves every day of their lives. That was their identity. They had never NOT been slaves. But in a day, that was completely changed. They were reborn into a free nation and people. For us, we were born into sin with no hope of freedom from it in ourselves. That is all we had ever been and all we ever would be if not for Jesus' life, death and resurrection. In that moment, we went from slaves to free men.

Israel was freed from Egypt's rule and reign on that day. They were no longer under their control. But that victory was also for their entire lives.
Exodus 14:13 "But Moses said to the people, “Do not fear! Stand by and see the salvation of the Lord which He will accomplish for you today; for the Egyptians whom you have seen today, you will never see them again forever."

It is the same for us. Not only have we been given relief and freedom from our sins and the consequences of them today, we know that it is an eternal victory. The sin we had been enslaved to all our lives is now, and forever will be gone.

Why? Because of the mercy God extended to Israel and us. How? Because of the mark of blood of an innocent lamb on Israel's house. Just like Israel was to keep a lamb for several days and THEN sacrifice it (Exodus 12), Jesus did the same thing for us. There was an innocent lamb that was kept with Israel for a season until it was then offered as a sacrifice.

So in answer to your questions, e-g,

1. Is god going to free another nation from slavery?

Physically and politically, it doesn't seem like it to me. But that's not ultimately the point of Passover.

2. Is not God working in induviduals today? Not nations?

Absolutely! God is working in us as individuals and as a Body. Jesus' Passover was for each of us as individuals and for a people.

3. Is it not more important that we do as God says, look at the new covenant, which the first symblolized, and not the old?

Yes, we are saved through this New Covenant. The Law, the Torah points us to Yeshua. We are not observing and keeping Passover because our hope is in it. Rather, it is a memorial stone for how our God has worked miracles in the past, and how He worked a miracle in us through salvation. For me, all of the Torah provides the opportunity for me to remember.

Joshua 4:21-24 "He said to the sons of Israel, “When your children ask their fathers in time to come, saying, ‘What are these stones?’22 then you shall inform your children, saying, ‘Israel crossed this Jordan on dry ground.’23 For the Lord your God dried up the waters of the Jordan before you until you had crossed, just as the Lord your God had done to the Red Sea, which He dried up before us until we had crossed;24 that all the peoples of the earth may know that the hand of the Lord is mighty, so that you may fear the Lord your God forever.”

If you focus on the memorial stone or the "shadow", or the "schoolmaster", you've missed the point. But if you focus on what each of those things were designed to point to, you're aren't worshipping them or elevating them. You're worshipping and celebrating what they're pointing to.

In a (rather large) nutshell, that is why I keep Passover. And that's why I observe as much of the Torah as I can. Not for the sake of the Torah, but as a daily reminder of who my God is, and what He is doing today in me and in others.

Blessings to all,
Matt

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Observing and Remembering Passover (not worshipping it, as you alluded to) provides us the opportunity to put ourselves in Israel's sandals, so to speak. Zone was on the right track I think, but stopped just just short of what I'm getting at.

Passover wasn't just a historical account of the deliverance of a people and their origins as a new nation. Looking back now, that can sometimes be all we see. But in reality it was much more important than that. Passover was the salvation of God physically and spiritually. It was a rebirth, it was a new identity. It was a victory not just for a moment, but for a lifetime for Israel.

Israel was delivered from the physical bonds of slavery and the spiritual slavery that came from God forgetting them. We once were in slavery to sin with no hope of freedom, no matter how much we tried or worked.

The generation that was Passed Over had been slaves every day of their lives. That was their identity. They had never NOT been slaves. But in a day, that was completely changed. They were reborn into a free nation and people. For us, we were born into sin with no hope of freedom from it in ourselves. That is all we had ever been and all we ever would be if not for Jesus' life, death and resurrection. In that moment, we went from slaves to free men.

Israel was freed from Egypt's rule and reign on that day. They were no longer under their control. But that victory was also for their entire lives.
Exodus 14:13 "But Moses said to the people, “Do not fear! Stand by and see the salvation of the Lord which He will accomplish for you today; for the Egyptians whom you have seen today, you will never see them again forever."

It is the same for us. Not only have we been given relief and freedom from our sins and the consequences of them today, we know that it is an eternal victory. The sin we had been enslaved to all our lives is now, and forever will be gone.

Why? Because of the mercy God extended to Israel and us. How? Because of the mark of blood of an innocent lamb on Israel's house. Just like Israel was to keep a lamb for several days and THEN sacrifice it (Exodus 12), Jesus did the same thing for us. There was an innocent lamb that was kept with Israel for a season until it was then offered as a sacrifice.

Agree with most everything you said, I just see it different.

1. Reading and studying it. Yes I agree.
2. Doing it (feast of unleavened bread) no. As this is not for us.
3. Remember, the people freed wandered the dessert for 40 year. they did not enter Gods rest.

The picture is they did not save themselves either. The slain lamb did. He gave his life for the first born.

So in answer to your questions, e-g,

Physically and politically, it doesn't seem like it to me. But that's not ultimately the point of Passover.

To them it was. "this is the day I freed you from slavery, and made you a NATION of my own"

The whole point was god was going to separate them as a nation, and show the world (through his work with them) his ways and his mercy.

Absolutely! God is working in us as individuals and as a Body. Jesus' Passover was for each of us as individuals and for a people.

Yes, he is the fulfillment of the symbol. So why look at the symbol and NOT the fulfillment of that symbol?

Yes, we are saved through this New Covenant. The Law, the Torah points us to Yeshua. We are not observing and keeping Passover because our hope is in it. Rather, it is a memorial stone for how our God has worked miracles in the past, and how He worked a miracle in us through salvation. For me, all of the Torah provides the opportunity for me to remember.

Joshua 4:21-24 "He said to the sons of Israel, “When your children ask their fathers in time to come, saying, ‘What are these stones?’22 then you shall inform your children, saying, ‘Israel crossed this Jordan on dry ground.’23 For the Lord your God dried up the waters of the Jordan before you until you had crossed, just as the Lord your God had done to the Red Sea, which He dried up before us until we had crossed;24 that all the peoples of the earth may know that the hand of the Lord is mighty, so that you may fear the Lord your God forever.”

If you focus on the memorial stone or the "shadow", or the "schoolmaster", you've missed the point. But if you focus on what each of those things were designed to point to, you're aren't worshipping them or elevating them. You're worshipping and celebrating what they're pointing to.

In a (rather large) nutshell, that is why I keep Passover. And that's why I observe as much of the Torah as I can. Not for the sake of the Torah, but as a daily reminder of who my God is, and what He is doing today in me and in others.

Blessings to all,
Matt

Each of those things was to show the world via a nation. I see God work in peoples lives every day, those are more powerful than remembering things which happened to some nation 4000 years ago,

Again, Why would we celebrate the symbol and not the fulfillment? that makes no sense to me, Just being honest!

 

[john832]

How often do you make phony caricatures? Usually always.

Xmas and Easter are holidays. The lord's supper is a memorial. Big difference...

How often do you celebrate the Passover?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How often do you celebrate the Passover?

why would he? the passover was for the children of Israel. not us..

 

[john832]

why would he? the passover was for the children of Israel. not us..

Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

With the twelve who would become the backbone of the New Testament church and He gave them instruction on keeping the New Testament Passover.

Luk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

What did He tell them to do? Observe the Passover with the New Testament symbols in remembrance of Him.

 

[Grandpa]

Do you see?

So why didn't Jesus or any of the disciples say that this was superceding Passover? That's kind of a big inference to make. And one that doesn't seem very strong in these Scriptures about "the Lord's Supper"?

John 14:6-7
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

It didn't seem like such a big inference to me. How many High Priests before The Lord Jesus Christ told anyone to take and eat this is my body which is given for you, during passover?

How many High Priests before the Lord Jesus Christ told anyone this cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you, during passover?

New Testament in my blood. I am the Way. What the Lord Jesus Christ says seems pretty strong to me.

This is pretty much the gist of all our goings around and around. Does the Lords Supper supercede the old celebration of passover? For those that would follow Him it sure does.

Does the way of Jesus Christ supercede the old hebrew way of keeping feasts and laws?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

With the twelve who would become the backbone of the New Testament church and He gave them instruction on keeping the New Testament Passover.

No, He did not.

He stated he had a desire to eat this (this one) passover with them, he desired to show, he was going to fulfill what the passover symbolized.

The passover was the Old covenant, he was starting a new one.

Luk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

What did He tell them to do? Observe the Passover with the New Testament symbols in remembrance of Him.

He told them. the old was going to go away, he was going to institute a new one. No longer would they remember the one from egypt (it has no bearing) but they would remember a new one.

No longer would they do it once a year remembering egypt, but now they should do it as paul said "OFTEN" in remembrance of me.

The passover remembered an animal slaughters (many animals actually)

The new covenant remembers one lamb, Slain for the sins of his people.

why do people want to be stuck on the old. When God brought in the new?

 

[john832]

John 14:6-7
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

It didn't seem like such a big inference to me. How many High Priests before The Lord Jesus Christ told anyone to take and eat this is my body which is given for you, during passover?

How many High Priests before the Lord Jesus Christ told anyone this cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you, during passover?

New Testament in my blood. I am the Way. What the Lord Jesus Christ says seems pretty strong to me.

This is pretty much the gist of all our goings around and around. Does the Lords Supper supercede the old celebration of passover? For those that would follow Him it sure does.

Does the way of Jesus Christ supercede the old hebrew way of keeping feasts and laws?

Let me ask you a question, who is this speaking?

Lev 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
...

And I won't take up a lot of bandwidth posting the entire chapter, you can read it for yourself, but who is the LORD speaking here?

 

[john832]

I come up with Nothing.

I am very tempted to comment here..., but I will refrain.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let me ask you a question, who is this speaking?

Lev 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
...

And I won't take up a lot of bandwidth posting the entire chapter, you can read it for yourself, but who is the LORD speaking here?

Isreal.

this one was given to us..

Genesis 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

 

[RickShafer]

Yes, God's work ended.
It's not like He started working on the first day of the next week.
Jesus came to fulfill the law.
When He said 'It is finished' on the cross, that didn't mean it was only finished for Him.
He IS the door, all others who try to come into the sheepcote by any other way are thieves and robbers.
Jesus fulfilled the law.
- You mustn't look at fulfilling the precepts of the law as 'doing your due diligence'.
- - Believing on Jesus Christ is your due diligence! (John 8)

 

[Grandpa]

Let me ask you a question, who is this speaking?

Lev 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
...

And I won't take up a lot of bandwidth posting the entire chapter, you can read it for yourself, but who is the LORD speaking here?

That would be God.

Now let me ask you this.

When the children of Israel weren't able to perform what they said they would, who came to save them from that Yoke of Bondage?

 

[john832]

Isreal.

this one was given to us..

Genesis 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Uh, did you read what I ask? I ask who was doing the speaking and your reply is Israel? Israel is the LORD which comes from...

H3068
יהוה
yehôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.

The Tetragrammaton. Hmmm, interesting.

 

[john832]

That would be God.

Now let me ask you this.

When the children of Israel weren't able to perform what they said they would, who came to save them from that Yoke of Bondage?

More specifically, that was spoken by the One who became Jesus Christ.

 

[john832]

That would be God.

Now let me ask you this.

When the children of Israel weren't able to perform what they said they would, who came to save them from that Yoke of Bondage?

What did He save them from? I believe the answer here is SIN.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Uh, did you read what I ask? I ask who was doing the speaking and your reply is Israel? Israel is the LORD which comes from...

H3068
יהוה
yehôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.

The Tetragrammaton. Hmmm, interesting.

Yes I read it. Lev and the laws contained there-in were given to the children of Isreal.

and you deny this?