What Is The Christian Relationship to The Old Testament Covenant?

[RedTent]

The O.T. and the N.T. is, of course one book. But we have to accept the facts of the one book of God. In the O.T God dealt with mankind differently in each time period. But, The theme that unities the one book of God, the Bible,is, God's eternal covenant of Grace. No body can read the N,T, and not see the transition from the O.T. to the N.T.. Yet the O.T. is not a closed book. there is much prophecy yet to be fulfilled. And the great trues of God are the same for us in the N.T. era. Jesus accepted the O.T. as God's word but changed the laws that we didn't need any more for the N.T.. Jesus began the New Covenant in His blood by his death. and proved it all by rising from the dead. We are under the N.C. not the O.C.. The covenant with Abraham was for ever. but parts of the cov. with Moses ,Israel, were not for ever. the Davidic cov. pointed to Christ and were for ever. The N.C. by Jesus is eternal, and is in force today and will be made with Israel at Christ 2nd coming. We are not under the Mosaic cov.. Salvation has always been by grace through faith unto good works. The eternal cov. of grace is spelled out in Rom.8:29-30. Time for me to hit the hay. good night to all.

I have read in scripture that the first covenant, the covenant with Adam is replaced, but I haven't found where the others are.

Grace was in effect when Moses was given the law. That happening is tied into the giving of the Holy Spirit in Acts. Pentecost, the date of the giving of the Holy Spirit, was also the date of first fruits that also celebrated the giving of the law to Moses.

What scripture says the Mosaic covenant is over? I have always loved the 119th psalm. If it was over, that psalm would be over, too, wouldn't it?

 

[RedTent]

I do not see how you can either vote that we need to keep the law of Moses OR the law does not save. They are both true.

 

[Grandpa]

Grace was in effect when Moses was given the law. That happening is tied into the giving of the Holy Spirit in Acts. Pentecost, the date of the giving of the Holy Spirit, was also the date of first fruits that also celebrated the giving of the law to Moses.

The Law given by Moses was because Grace was rejected. For those who would reject God's Grace the Law given by Moses is still in effect. Those with stone hearts following after the Law written on stone.

Those with the new heart of flesh follow after Life.

The giving of the Holy Spirit in Acts on Pentecost is the fulfillment of the shadow that was given by Moses. The Law given by Moses was a description of what the Holy Spirit is and does for us and in us.

The letter kills but the spirit gives life.

When Moses gave the Law on Pentecost 3000 died.
When the Holy Spirit was given in Acts 3000 people received Life.

Grace is always in effect. Not all wish to receive it.

 

[RedTent]

The Law given by Moses was because Grace was rejected. For those who would reject God's Grace the Law given by Moses is still in effect. Those with stone hearts following after the Law written on stone.

Those with the new heart of flesh follow after Life.

The giving of the Holy Spirit in Acts on Pentecost is the fulfillment of the shadow that was given by Moses. The Law given by Moses was a description of what the Holy Spirit is and does for us and in us.

The letter kills but the spirit gives life.

When Moses gave the Law on Pentecost 3000 died.
When the Holy Spirit was given in Acts 3000 people received Life.

Grace is always in effect. Not all wish to receive it.

You say people rejected grace? When God sent Moses to receive the stone tablets, the people were deep in Egyptian culture, I haven't read anything about grace entering into it. Where does it say God sent Moses because of grace?

3,000 died at that time because they worshipped the golden calf instead of God. Are you saying scripture says it was because they were given the law? Where does it say that.

I read that we are to obey law in spirit, not by the letter. You say the letter kills. Huh???

3,000 received the Holy Spirit that gave understanding, where are you reading it gave life? Forgiveness gives life not understanding.

Who do you have in mind that does not want to accept God's grace and mercy?

 

[john832]

The Law given by Moses was because Grace was rejected. For those who would reject God's Grace the Law given by Moses is still in effect. Those with stone hearts following after the Law written on stone.

Those with the new heart of flesh follow after Life.

The giving of the Holy Spirit in Acts on Pentecost is the fulfillment of the shadow that was given by Moses. The Law given by Moses was a description of what the Holy Spirit is and does for us and in us.

The letter kills but the spirit gives life.

When Moses gave the Law on Pentecost 3000 died.
When the Holy Spirit was given in Acts 3000 people received Life.

Grace is always in effect. Not all wish to receive it.

Really?

Exo 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

 

[Grandpa]

You say people rejected grace? When God sent Moses to receive the stone tablets, the people were deep in Egyptian culture, I haven't read anything about grace entering into it. Where does it say God sent Moses because of grace?

The law was given because of transgression. This transgression was rejecting Gods Grace and Provision.

3,000 died at that time because they worshipped the golden calf instead of God. Are you saying scripture says it was because they were given the law? Where does it say that.

The ministration of condemnation and death written on stone... Do you think it was just a coincidence that 3000 died when it was given?

I read that we are to obey law in spirit, not by the letter. You say the letter kills. Huh???

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

3,000 received the Holy Spirit that gave understanding, where are you reading it gave life? Forgiveness gives life not understanding.

the letter kills but the Spirit gives life... 2 Cor 3:6

Do you think it was just a coincidence that it was 3000 that received the Holy Spirit and given Life?

Who do you have in mind that does not want to accept God's grace and mercy?

Exodus 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

Those who would rather hear Moses than God.

 

[Drett]

Jesus instructions to his disciples and followers just before he ascended into heaven.

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
Matt 23:1-4

Jesus considered the law so important that after he was gone he wanted his disciples and followers to continue to follow what the teachers of the law taught.

He then later told the parable of the wicked servant who did not do what was required of him. He is to be cut to pieces and assigned the place with the hypocrites.

It is nice not to have to follow any rules but is it what Jesus instructed ?

 

[just-me]

When people referr to the Old Testament covenant, what part are they saying is gone, for there are several covenants, in the Old Testament.

 

[crossnote]

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

 

[phil36]

Hi Nicenecreed,

I think you are referring to the Mosaic covenant (That made with Moses and the people and not the Abrahamic covenant,that which was made with Abraham).

The Mosaic covenant was given to the people and the giving of the Law was a graceful act by God. There are a few important aspects to bear in mind. The background of this was the Exodus where God redeemed his people from bondage to Pharaoh (a false god) to be his people... This was an ongoing progressive work of God on the promises made to Abraham. The stipulations of the covenant where the law and the people having to keep it, remember this was by grace for God had redeemed them first before the law keeping. The important part is that of blessings and cursing's. If the people kept the law God would bless them an if not the curses... that is the loss of blessing and the promised land which God was about to lead them into. This differs from the Abrahamic covenant in that with Abraham God took on all the obligations of the covenant (Genesis 15).

The law itself points to something..one is the Holy standard of God, and how can a sinful people be right with God, all the rituals remind the people of their sinfulness and God's holiness and their sinfulness.. the day of atonement was important for it was here that we taste a foreshadow of something.. the death of one to cover the sin of all God's people.

The Temple itself self is just a foreshadow of something greater (John 1:14) ... God tabernacling with His people, just like in the Garden of Eden and later in the Solomon Temple and now in us (that's why we are the church, or temple) and in the future, the age to come God will once again tabernacle with His people, in a renewed Earth a new Jerusalem.

The tabernacle and temple are significant in that they show God's presence with his people and remind them that sin still seperates.. only once a year and only then the high priest could only go into the Holy of Holies... this also points to a time when that separation would be torn down..eventually the old testament riddle would be answered...how can God forgive the guilty and be Just?

All this progressively unfolds throughout the History of Israel.. for the OT is a progressive unfolding of God's dealing with his chosen people the Israelites in His work to fulfil the Abrahmic covenant and renew His creation for His own Glory.

All the OT points to Jesus, especially the rituals you read about in Ex, Deut and Lev... they are fulfilled in Jesus, therefore no more need for them.. however the moral still stands for it is the Holy standard of God himself and Jesus sums it up as:

Love God with all your heart and mind and love your neighbour as yourself...

Paul elaborates by telling us that the law was a holding place till Christ came..like a school master..

Just a note.. remember that the Law I the OT was not something horrible placed on the people...it was sheer grace.. fits not as if they had to keep it to be redeemed they already where redeemed (exodus), but they were to reflect God's Holy standards to their neighbour's. It changes to where in Jesus' time the religious elite had made law's around law's to help prevent people breaking the actual law.. but in doing so they placed on the people a heavy yoke that they themselves could not handle.

The good news of all this of course is that Christ fulfilled the demands of the law for us, for no one could... therefore all God's people are blessed and can look forward to living in the land once again... the New heaven and Earth, the New Jerusalem. In the Age to come.

 

[RedTent]

The law was given because of transgression. This transgression was rejecting Gods Grace and Provision.
The ministration of condemnation and death written on stone... Do you think it was just a coincidence that 3000 died when it was given?
2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
the letter kills but the Spirit gives life... 2 Cor 3:6
Do you think it was just a coincidence that it was 3000 that received the Holy Spirit and given Life?

Exodus 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

Those who would rather hear Moses than God.

I always shutter when I read your posts ranting against God's holy law. Then you even bring God's words to say that God agrees with you, that God says His law is not for our blessings. We try and try to talk you out of posting things like this but you insist. And you do it with love for the Lord in your heart! That is bewildering. I am posting some of what God says about His law in Psalm 119

9 How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to your word.
10 With my whole heart I seek you;let me not wander from your commandments!
11 I have stored up your word in my heart ,that I might not sin against you.
12 Blessed are you, O Lord; teach me your statutes!
13 With my lips I declareall the rules of your mouth.
14 In the way of your testimonies I delightas much as in all riches.
15 I will meditate on your precepts and fix my eyes on your ways.
16 I will delight in your statutes; I will not forget your word.​

 

[Grandpa]

I always shutter when I read your posts ranting against God's holy law. Then you even bring God's words to say that God agrees with you, that God says His law is not for our blessings. We try and try to talk you out of posting things like this but you insist. And you do it with love for the Lord in your heart! That is bewildering. I am posting some of what God says about His law in Psalm 119

9 How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to your word.
10 With my whole heart I seek you;let me not wander from your commandments!
11 I have stored up your word in my heart ,that I might not sin against you.
12 Blessed are you, O Lord; teach me your statutes!
13 With my lips I declareall the rules of your mouth.
14 In the way of your testimonies I delightas much as in all riches.
15 I will meditate on your precepts and fix my eyes on your ways.
16 I will delight in your statutes; I will not forget your word.​

The Law isn't for your blessing. Except in one way.

The Law is to bring you to Christ.

Christ is for your blessing. The Law describes what you can have, in Christ. In Christ Alone. Not by your works but by His Gift.

Galatians 3:10-11
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.There is a NEW TESTAMENT now. There is a NEW WAY now. The Lord Jesus Christ has given us this NEW WAY. Only in HIM are we blessed.

I suspect there were a few in the OT that knew of this New Way that was to come. I suspect they had faith in Christ looking forward, just as we have faith in Christ looking back to what He has already done.


If you read my posts you will see I am never against God's Law. I am only against people trying to work at it. That is NOT the Way that Christ has given us.

You don't realize how much I love God and Respect His Law. If I were able to come to Him by my perfect Law keeping I would be the biggest proponent for the Law you have ever seen. But He didn't bless me that way. He blessed me in spite of my failings at His Perfect Law. He blessed me because I came to Him and asked for His Help because I didn't keep His Law.

I originally came to this site to learn more of this New Way given to us by the Lord Jesus Christ that I had discovered. Imagine my surprise, as a babe in Christ, when so few even know that He Has Established a New Way and I felt compelled to teach the little bit that I actually know...

Thank God for Paul and the New Testament. Who better to show us that the Lord Jesus has established a New Way than an expert of the Old Way?

Christians all seem to know that they aren't saved by the Law. And yet most of them still work at the Law. I don't know if these men that have crept in unaware deliberately attempt to keep people under the law or if they just do it because they don't understand. I suppose most people, especially in churches, are more concerned with having a religion than knowing who Christ is and what He has done for us.

Do you find it strange that there are all these threads on the Old testament and how wonderful the law is and hardly any on who Christ is and what He has done for us? I interject Christ into the conversation and all the legalists are offended. Kind of strange for Christians to be more concerned with Law than Grace.

At some point we have to put the manual down and drive this thing around. Start to understand more about where the rubber meets the road. This is a life that is lived by the Spirit.

Otherwise you are ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[crossnote]

I always shutter when I read your posts ranting against God's holy law. Then you even bring God's words to say that God agrees with you, that God says His law is not for our blessings. We try and try to talk you out of posting things like this but you insist. And you do it with love for the Lord in your heart! That is bewildering. I am posting some of what God says about His law in Psalm 119

9 How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to your word.
10 With my whole heart I seek you;let me not wander from your commandments!
11 I have stored up your word in my heart ,that I might not sin against you.
12 Blessed are you, O Lord; teach me your statutes!
13 With my lips I declareall the rules of your mouth.
14 In the way of your testimonies I delightas much as in all riches.
15 I will meditate on your precepts and fix my eyes on your ways.
16 I will delight in your statutes; I will not forget your word.​

"We try and talk to you" ...Who's 'we'? There many more who try to talk to you and about 2 or 3 others about the supremacy of grace over the law and the work of the cross and Holy Spirit over our own efforts but some 2or 3 aren't listening.

 

[RedTent]

The Law isn't for your blessing. Except in one way.

The Law is to bring you to Christ.

Christ is for your blessing. The Law describes what you can have, in Christ. In Christ Alone. Not by your works but by His Gift.

Galatians 3:10-11
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.There is a NEW TESTAMENT now. There is a NEW WAY now. The Lord Jesus Christ has given us this NEW WAY. Only in HIM are we blessed.

I suspect there were a few in the OT that knew of this New Way that was to come. I suspect they had faith in Christ looking forward, just as we have faith in Christ looking back to what He has already done.


If you read my posts you will see I am never against God's Law. I am only against people trying to work at it. That is NOT the Way that Christ has given us.

You don't realize how much I love God and Respect His Law. If I were able to come to Him by my perfect Law keeping I would be the biggest proponent for the Law you have ever seen. But He didn't bless me that way. He blessed me in spite of my failings at His Perfect Law. He blessed me because I came to Him and asked for His Help because I didn't keep His Law.

I originally came to this site to learn more of this New Way given to us by the Lord Jesus Christ that I had discovered. Imagine my surprise, as a babe in Christ, when so few even know that He Has Established a New Way and I felt compelled to teach the little bit that I actually know...

Thank God for Paul and the New Testament. Who better to show us that the Lord Jesus has established a New Way than an expert of the Old Way?

Christians all seem to know that they aren't saved by the Law. And yet most of them still work at the Law. I don't know if these men that have crept in unaware deliberately attempt to keep people under the law or if they just do it because they don't understand. I suppose most people, especially in churches, are more concerned with having a religion than knowing who Christ is and what He has done for us.

Do you find it strange that there are all these threads on the Old testament and how wonderful the law is and hardly any on who Christ is and what He has done for us? I interject Christ into the conversation and all the legalists are offended. Kind of strange for Christians to be more concerned with Law than Grace.

At some point we have to put the manual down and drive this thing around. Start to understand more about where the rubber meets the road. This is a life that is lived by the Spirit.

Otherwise you are ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

If you could take all you say in the entire post, keep it all in your heart and mind, but after you do all you say, after Christ comes into your heart, if you could then agree to work for Him and use what is said as a good way to work for Him, we would be in sync. And never work because there is no grace, never work because you can create your own grace, but work to walk in the narrow road Christ lays out for you, we would agree. Then you would never scold your Father or Moses because He told you how to walk.

 

[zone]

work for Him in what way?
performing rituals because you need reminding of Who He is through the shadows His Person cast?
what works are those?

do you even know what good works are that God ordained we walk in?

guess what - they conform exactly to the Moral Law.

christians assemble themselves together as a body to worship God and hear His word.
Jesus Christ The Lord is exhalted.
christians asemble to themselves together as a body to worship God and hear and honor His Law.
they then confess their sins before Him,
and Jesus Christ, the propitiation for thier sins is exhalted.

christians honor His whole word by keeping and guarding it, not just for themselves and their families,
but for the sake of the Gospel, the faith delivered once for all to the saints.
for many false teachers have gone out into the world.

christians don't only use just weights and measures - they give more, and do not steal; they work for a living not just to provide for themselves and their families but to be trustworthy dentists or shopkeepers, this is serving their neighbors; christians not only honor their mothers and fathers, they honor their neighbor's mothers and fathers.

but christians, in having kept and guarded and partaken of the gift of His word conintually, know they have not kept the demands of the Law
and so when they go to the Throne of Grace, and confess their faults and sins,
they truly believe what God has said - that He is faithful to forgive and cleanse from all (all means all) unrighteousness.
and Jesus Christ is exhalted.

christians live in peace and joy, knowing Christ is exhalted, their sins are forgiven, and they are free to go and serve Him joyfully, having entered into His Rest.

and Christ the Lord, the Very real Person is exhalted.

 

[Shiloah]

The Law given by Moses was because Grace was rejected. For those who would reject God's Grace the Law given by Moses is still in effect. Those with stone hearts following after the Law written on stone.

Those with the new heart of flesh follow after Life.

The giving of the Holy Spirit in Acts on Pentecost is the fulfillment of the shadow that was given by Moses. The Law given by Moses was a description of what the Holy Spirit is and does for us and in us.

The letter kills but the spirit gives life.

When Moses gave the Law on Pentecost 3000 died.
When the Holy Spirit was given in Acts 3000 people received Life.

Grace is always in effect. Not all wish to receive it.

The law given to Moses was for those who rejected grace? Oh my. That has got to be the most bizarre concept I've seen posted here yet. :-O

 

[Shiloah]

I always shutter when I read your posts ranting against God's holy law. Then you even bring God's words to say that God agrees with you, that God says His law is not for our blessings. We try and try to talk you out of posting things like this but you insist. And you do it with love for the Lord in your heart! That is bewildering. I am posting some of what God says about His law in Psalm 119

9 How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to your word.
10 With my whole heart I seek you;let me not wander from your commandments!
11 I have stored up your word in my heart ,that I might not sin against you.
12 Blessed are you, O Lord; teach me your statutes!
13 With my lips I declareall the rules of your mouth.
14 In the way of your testimonies I delightas much as in all riches.
15 I will meditate on your precepts and fix my eyes on your ways.
16 I will delight in your statutes; I will not forget your word.​

Let's remember that David was the apple of God's eye.

 

[Shiloah]

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

And so you're thinking what God told the prophets isn't the same thing spoken to us by the Son? The Son came to live among us, to communicate with us, and to die for us. The message has remained the same. The initial plan was the same. It never changed. Our advocate simply became Christ rather than a sin offering before God, which was pointed to by way of rituals and feasts and offerings.

 

[WeStand]

Gen:49

​

And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

Gather yourselves together, and hear ,ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father.

Rueben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:

Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy fathers bed; then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch.

Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations.

O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou untied: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.

Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.

Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of your enemies; thy fathers children shall bow down before thee.

Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, who shall rouse him up?

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come: and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of the grapes:

His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

Zebulun shall etc.......................



Our Fathers language IS family and nature; it IS learned in Hebrew, using the English Bible or whatever language one understands as a textbook guide, to hear, what saith The Father about the SON. Not some man, Not any man. (this means women too)

 

[crossnote]

And so you're thinking what God told the prophets isn't the same thing spoken to us by the Son? The Son came to live among us, to communicate with us, and to die for us. The message has remained the same. The initial plan was the same. It never changed. Our advocate simply became Christ rather than a sin offering before God, which was pointed to by way of rituals and feasts and offerings.

Try looking up ALL the occurances of the word 'better' in the Book of Hebrews and then you'll begin to understand the differences are far GREATER and BETTER than what you listed.