Is it logical to assume that nothing created the universe?

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Aug 22, 2013
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Even if you believe the universe was caused by God that only
moves you to the deist position. You still have all the work
ahead of you to prove it's the God of the Bible.
 
Aug 24, 2013
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Well yeah even if it's proven that there was a prime mover, we then have to discuss Virgin Births, Miracles, heaven and hell etc.
 
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danschance

Guest
Well yeah even if it's proven that there was a prime mover, we then have to discuss Virgin Births, Miracles, heaven and hell etc.
I have no problems with Heaven, Hell, Virgin birth, miracles or anything recorded in the bible.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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... one day you will get to meet this god you do not believe in

his name is Jesus and he will expect you to account for what you did with the life He gave you
Spent too much of it playing World of Warcraft; that's a certainty. :)
 
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Tethered

Guest
Spent too much of it playing World of Warcraft; that's a certainty. :)
Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
haha - Your liberty and happiness I suppose :)
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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Even if you believe the universe was caused by God that only
moves you to the deist position. You still have all the work
ahead of you to prove it's the God of the Bible.
Yeah but at least all the deck will be cleared and ready for take-off. (i.e. no more atheistic objections, only theistic ones)
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
The First Cause Argument, or Cosmological Argument, is internally contradictory and raises the following questions: Who or what created god?, Why should a hypothetical ‘cause’ have any of the common attributes of a god?, Why is the ‘cause’ a specific god?, Why can’t the universe be causeless too? and, most importantly, Why rule out all other possible explanations?

It is fundamentally a ‘god of the gaps’ approach. Our current lack of understanding concerning the Universe’s origins does not automatically mean ‘god’ holds any explanatory value. Metaphysical and theistic speculation are not immediately justified or correct simply because we lack a comprehensive scientific model. Uncertainty is the most valid position and one can honestly say “We just don’t know yet”.

The argument ignores the fact that our everyday understanding of causality has been arrived at via a posteriori inductive reasoning – which means it might not apply to everything. Time, for instance, appears to have begun with the Big Bang, so there might not have been any ’cause’ for the Universe to be an ‘effect’ of since there was probably no time for a ’cause’ to exist in. Applying concepts like time and causality to the Big Bang might be comparable to asking “What is north of the North Pole?” –ultimately nonsensical and incoherent. Furthermore, even if causality could be established it would not immediately imply the existence of a god, much less any particular one, as the properties and nature of the ’cause’ could forever remain a mystery or be naturalistic.

In fact, something can come from nothing and we are able to observe it in the form of virtual particles and quantum vacuum fluctuations. They explain why the early universe lacked uniformity and provided the seeds for the emergence of structure. These quantum phenomena are also causeless in the sense that they are objectively and irreducibly random, a fact confirmed by tests of non-local realism and Bell’s Theorem.

Note: Theists often state “God is outside of time”. This claim does not actually make their speculation correct. Instead, it brings with it a whole host of problems and may be immediately dismissed as being without basis and a type fallacy known as special pleading.
This is copypasta.

Also, God isn't a created being and thus there is no requirement for a god creating mechanism. The Universe, however, was created. Thus, needing a creating mechanism.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
It's interesting how the rate of these supposed miracles
took a dive when the camera was invented.
Nice try at humor, but actually it decreased not long after the apostles, which is exactly as scripture said would happen. Ever read that part?
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
Well yeah even if it's proven that there was a prime mover, we then have to discuss Virgin Births, Miracles, heaven and hell etc.
Those are bumps much easier to justify, than atheism.
 
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Hoffco

Guest
I would say, my faith is based on facts. the myth of evolution is based on irrationality. The FACTS of creation and the FACT of my conversion is a fact. The Bible is based on facts, proven history. even the miracles in Jesus are proven facts. the resurrection of Jesus is a proven fact. I believe the unseen promises of GOD, because of my faith in the facts. Love for all, Hoffco
 
Aug 25, 2013
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Congrats on answering to my post and sorry you are an atheist. Maybe that can change?
You certainly are welcome to try. I expended considerable effort trying to convince myself of God's existence back in my teens. At this point it would require a direct supernatural intervention as I have lost all motivation to desire that particular outcome.

danschance said:
If you are looking for facts, I suggest you not search for them in a faith based forum. As I mentioned previously fact and faith are not exactly co-dependent. Still you are here at a Christian forum as an atheist discussing fact and faith.
A few of the atheist forums are top heavy with science types and they're good places for getting the facts when you want them, and I do visit them from time to time, but I don't get much of a charge from discussions if people always agree with me.
danschance said:
I have had 5 semesters of physics, 3 semesters of Chemistry and math classes beyond calculus in college. That doesn't make me an expert on anything but still, I have a decent grasp of science. I have always enjoyed the sciences.
Myself as well. I'm pretty much self-taught when it comes to the sciences. I do have graduate courses in astronomy and biology but my major was in history. I did take some religious courses from a Catholic college and a smattering of philosophy and psychology courses. What I find is that there is a lot of misinformation scattered about that passes for facts in the faith community, especially in regard the sciences. Has this been your observation? Is that what you meant in saying "fact and faith are not exactly co-dependent"?

danschance said:
I also, for a time was an atheist until God made it very clear to me that He is real. No, I can't prove it to you as you would simply label it as being anecdotal.
... but I'm interested all the same, if you care to share. I am always curious about why people make the move from atheism to faith, or vice versa.

danschance said:
It is a pivotal issue how the universe was formed and here is where science leaves us in the dark. Was matter and energy always here? If they were always here then they have been here infinitely long or they have an origin. Or matter and energy has an origin. The theories about the big bang and origins of the universe are complex. I am not qualified to delve too deep into this subject as I have never studied quantum physics.

Some leading physicists do in fact believe that matter can spontaneously exist and they believe this is the case based on quantum physics. The big bang theory is that space actually stretched out along with matter. Beyond this, who knows? At some point it comes down to faith. Faith in some sort of singularity which happened by itself or that something external from our space-time continuum caused it to happen.
The scientific explanation for the origin of the universe is tentative. The possible solutions offered may or may not be correct, and frankly I suspect we haven't arrived at the true picture, but I don't believe the explanation in Genesis is anywhere near reliable. In that text I think we may really be looking at a Bronze Age explanation of things. In any case my reading of the English translation of Genesis is that the waters already existed before the creative acts began.
 
Aug 22, 2013
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This is copypasta.

Also, God isn't a created being and thus there is no requirement for a god creating mechanism. The Universe, however, was created. Thus, needing a creating mechanism.
How can you say God wasn't created without providing
any evidence? Or is this just a belief many people hold?
Argument ad populum.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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How can you say God wasn't created without providing
any evidence? Or is this just a belief many people hold?
Argument ad populum.
If God was created then that 'creator' would be God. You can't have an infinite successions of 'creators'.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
Yeah because a Virgin giving birth is much easier to believe than a Virgin not giving birth.
That's not atheism. Also, yes, virgin birth is quite possible. Happens a lot in biology, actually.

Do you even think about what your saying?
No I iz cirhstian, i iz stoopid.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
How can you say God wasn't created without providing
any evidence? Or is this just a belief many people hold?
Argument ad populum.
Not argument ad populum. I'm not claiming a majority believe it therefor it is.

I'm just statin' facts. As far as your demand for evidence, evidence is kewl n' all but I don't peddle in bankrupt epistemologies.
 
Aug 5, 2013
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the joke is one day you will get to meet this god you do not believe in

his name is Jesus and he will expect you to account for what you did with the life He gave you

and you will bow your knee to him and acknowlege he has the right to judge you
Did... did you not get the joke? Are you truly unable to understand how you would react if a Muslim declared these same things to you? Do you lose sleep over the possibility of going to Muslim Hell?