Would you walk out of your church if a woman missionary came to pulpit to speak ?

[oldhermit]

And, I agree, the wife sitting next to her husband in the congregation is to be silent , or she is "disgraceful" being.
1 Cor. 14:34-35

And, I also add, the woman who is in the church, not married, is to be silent and in full submission to the pastor speaking and she is not to teach she's in authority or usurp (swallow up) the authority of the men in the church. They are the leaders.

This is Truth .

Women, who are not 'wives' and women who are not just in the church listening to the pastor, or, person speaking, DO have different roles, and, God puts them in those roles.

Again, just because you want to include 'woman' as ALL women, that still doesn't mean you can do it, oldherm, and, women who are called by God to do other work, like a woman who becomes a PASTOR, or, MISSIONARY, in the church HAVE different roles and are, obviously, not being called to be quiet when God goes and does a work through them. God wants us to us His gift (Holy Spirit) given us to bless others and help others in their faith, which is EXACTLY what a WOMAN MISSIONARY would be doing.

Be careful, bro, don't quench the Spirit and a lot of women have had God call them to missionary work and it was not to then sit on their hands and knees, it is to report back what good God did, what goodness He showed her for others to have their faiths' grown by Him through having heard this missionary woman speak . The Lord leads

This has nothing to do with husbands and wives. The issue is the presence of women - ALL women in the assembly. Their divinely appointed role in this setting is one of silence.

 

[David_1]

Yeah this thread is dumb. The whole concept is out dated.

I don't think women speaking is the problem, a lot of the men here need to shut up more.

 

[oldhermit]

Yeah this thread is dumb. The whole concept is out dated.

I don't think women speaking is the problem, a lot of the men here need to shut up more.

Do you then regard scripture as a time contingent document?

 

[GreenNnice]

This has nothing to do with husbands and wives. The issue is the presence of women - ALL women in the assembly. Their divinely appointed role in this setting is one of silence.

Yes, I agree. The normal woman of a husband, or, the single woman is to be silent and in submission as 1 Tim. 2:11 and 1 Cor. 14:34-35 both state.

However, oldherm, this does NOT apply to ALL women, it applies ONLY to those who are with a husband or who are a NORMAL WOMAN in the church congregation with NO ROLE in the church, like a Sunday School teacher, for example.
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I'm shortening this for you because when I speak longer I think you get confused, and, I don't blame you, my green brains have confused a-many a folk on c.c.

 

[oldhermit]

Yes, I agree. The normal woman of a husband, or, the single woman is to be silent and in submission as GreenNnice 1 Tim.2:11 and 1 Cor. 14:34-35 both state.

However, oldherm, this does NOT apply to ALL women, it applies ONLY to those who are with a husband or who are a NORMAL WOMAN in the church congregation with NO ROLE in the church, like a Sunday School teacher, for example.
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I'm shortening this for you because when I speak longer I think you get confused, and, I don't blame you, my green brains have confused a-many a folk on c.c.

You know GreenNnice, I think you actually know better than this. In 1 Tim. 2 Paul simply says "a woman" He does not qualify the term thus it applies to all women. In 1 Cor. 14:35 ἄνδρας is accusative masculine plural meaning simply men. It does not define what men. It could be her husband, father, brother, uncle, any men who reside in the household.

 

[GreenNnice]

You know GreenNnice, I think you actually know better than this. In 1 Tim. 2 Paul simply says "a woman" He does not qualify the term thus it applies to all women. In 1 Cor. 14:35 ἄνδρας is accusative masculine plural meaning simply men. It does not define what men. It could be her husband, father, brother, uncle, any men who reside in the household.

wife and husband are the two titles used in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, oldherm

yes, a woman , NOT a wife , is the term used in 1 Timothy 2:11-12.

Do I say different ?

 

[oldhermit]

wife and husband are the two titles used in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, oldherm

yes, a woman , NOT a wife , is the term used in 1 Timothy 2:11-12.

Do I say different ?

My point was simply that the grammar is so constructed that it applies to ALL women. You are trying to force an exception that the grammar simply will not support.

 

[GreenNnice]

My point was simply that the grammar is so constructed that it applies to ALL women. You are trying to force an exception that the grammar simply will not support.

No, you are trying to make the support for a 'woman' who is to be quiet in the church, or, place of worship, as 1 Timothy 2 outlines carrying more meaning than that.

It's not more meaning than that. A 'woman' who is in a church service, and, yes, I parallel this with 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, too. Should I not do that, oldherm?

Anyway, yes, we should do that , and, a 'woman;' in BOTH 1 Cor. 14:34-35 and also 1 Timothy 2:11-12, is EITHER a wife or a woman who is SITTING in the church, who is either way, whether of a husband or of a single status to KEEP SILENT and more than that, to be in SUBMISSION to whoever is speaking.

And, no, a woman missionary and a woman pastor would be OUTSIDE that realm of definition of 'woman' used in THE context of 1 Cor. 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:11-12, or, back up, and, include verse 10 where we further here of how a WOMAN in the church is to dress, 'adorn' herself.

Again, try as you might, you won't EVER be able to make words 'woman' and 'wife' refer to ANY WOMAN in the church, these are SPECIFIC women Paul is describing and addressing

 

[oldhermit]

And, no, a missionary and a woman pastor would be OUTSIDE that realm of definition of 'woman' used in THE context of 1 Cor. 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:11-12, or, back up, and, include verse 10 where we further here of how a WOMAN in the church is to dress, 'adorn' herself.

Again, try as you might, you won't EVER be able to make words 'woman' and 'wife' refer to ANY WOMAN in the church, these are SPECIFIC women Paul is describing and addressing

Then you will have to show me in these two text where the context of a woman missionary and a woman pastor is ever introduced, authorized, or defended. You are trying to force this into these two texts. It simply is not there.

 

[GreenNnice]

Then you will have to show me in these two text where the context of a woman missionary and a woman pastor is ever introduced, authorized, or defended. You are trying to force this into these two texts. It simply is not there.

It's in the words of 1 Cor. 14:34-35, saying a wife is to be silent and ask questions at home, or she is disgraceful to her husband.

You said too, oldherm that you don't say that 'wife' is different than 'woman' in this verse.

I beg to differ. This verse ONLY speaks to a woman who has a husband

However, in 1 Timothy 2:11-12, this is a generalzation, referring to a 'woman' who is IN a service, she is the one who is to be in submission and be quiet and not, again, be doing things of authority like saying they are to be in charge of the service. No, THESE TYPE OF 'WOMAN' are NOT in control of the service, it is the overseer or bishop or pastor in charge

 

[oldhermit]

It's in the words of 1 Cor. 14:34-35, saying a wife is to be silent and ask questions at home, or she is disgraceful to her husband.

You said too, oldherm that you don't say that 'wife' is different than 'woman' in this verse.

I beg to differ. This verse ONLY speaks to a woman who has a husband

However, in 1 Timothy 2:11-12, this is a generalzation, referring to a 'woman' who is IN a service, she is the one who is to be in submission and be quiet and not, again, be doing things of authority like saying they are to be in charge of the service. No, THESE TYPE OF 'WOMAN' are NOT in control of the service, it is the overseer or bishop or pastor in charge

γυναῖκες is the word used in both texts and can be translated as both wife or woman. In almost every English translation γυναῖκες is rendered as woman. The word is rendered as woman in verses 34 and 35 of 1 Cor 15. It is also rendered as woman in 1 Tim 2:12,14, and 15. You are trying to create a distinction that the grammar does not make in order to justify your defiance of the language of the prohibition. This is not going to work.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Do you then regard scripture as a time contingent document?

Last I recall, he doesn't even believe the Old Testament belongs in the bible.

 

[onlinebuddy]

What's your definition of 'preach?'

Yes, I put the word 'testimony' in my OP and regret it now because that's NOT really what this woman missionary is going to be doing from the pulpit.

She's using the word of God , and, in a very powerful way, I might add, to explain how God did mighty, miraculous work through her in an african village in the heart of the Congo

My point is, no matter what she's going to be saying , it's going to sound like 'preaching' to someone who is against a woman preaching, even though this woman missionary is, obviously, not a pastor of this church. Let's just say there is NO way around it, she's going to be preaching and teaching you of God by virtue of where she's been the last year and how God's spoken to her through her stories of faith in Him .

Will you listen or will you leave, knowing 'this?'

Does the mere thought of thinking you might leave beging to help you see what preaching and teaching truly is?

Do you think then, that, maybe, just maybe, your ideas behind women never allowed to preach or teach men, at the pulpit, are a bit skewed, a bit biased, a bit selective, cookie-cut to benefit your belief of a 'woman' in this way ?

And, Scripture does say a overseer or shepherd or bishop or pastor is to be the 'husband of one wife,' so that does tell us that a man is referenced. But, do you think, especially for an 'elder,' who is double-honor receiving for preaching and teaching, do you think this 'elder' could be a man or woman ?

Scripture does give the impression that a bishop (pastor) and a deacon (elder) are of the male variety, but, is there anywhere else in Scripture where a woman could be labeled a elder, or, servant, or deacon, like Phoebe, for ex. in Romans 16? Phoebe was a 'servant,' this, to me, anyway, seems like she was more than just a 'woman' submitting to a man, like, wife faithful to husband?

I keep, asking more questions. Trying to keep the scope though on the original question, so, please, work hard not to tarry tooo far from 'this' chosen thread path

And, this missionary woman is, definitely, a servant, she's answered God's call, right ? I mean, she didn't just wake up one day and say, 'I'm going to go live with a violent tribe in Africa for a year.'

Oh, you're learning more about this missionary woman now, aren't you? Oh YES ! She prayed night and day and day and night prior to going to the Congo's heart and interacting and teaching others who disliked whites and she was white. And, who disliked Christianity, too, killed people before Marie-ann came to missionary to them and she changed their lives, well, God did, working through her 'vessel' structure

I would definitely listen to what this woman has to say. I wouldn't walk out.
About elders, I am used to having both men and women (husband and wife together) serve as elders.
If God has raised a woman to lead a church, he would definitely make it clear to the congregation. Personally, I haven't come across such a situation.

 

[GreenNnice]

I would definitely listen to what this woman has to say. I wouldn't walk out.
About elders, I am used to having both men and women (husband and wife together) serve as elders.
If God has raised a woman to lead a church, he would definitely make it clear to the congregation. Personally, I haven't come across such a situation.

Well said, onlinebuddybro.

Exactly. God would make it CLEAR that He was putting a woman in charge of some office or administration of her gifts, the Lord leads. The Lord PRUNES us, too, and, a woman who would to be a pastor or sunday school teacher will teach with a humble heart and just the same way as the men, who know this is the ONLY way to please God in this office, well, that and having 'faith' that the Lord is, indeed, using a woman for the office of elder, missionary, etc., and, yes, He can even calll a woman to be a pastor, and, even if you want to believe, 'No, green, He won't.' Ok, believe that, but there are women NOW who are pastors and even IF they are in disobedience of Scripture, God IS still using them to win hearts to Him. It's just that YOU won't be listening, i guess, if you're going to walk out on them starting speaking.

 

[GreenNnice]

Since someone gave me a 'reputation' comment for my last post--God bless his dear heart, to God be the glory but be blessed, my friend who did so--I'm bumping it

The Lord leads

 

[CatHerder]

hmmmm.....The way we do our missionary presentations is after the service, the missionary or missionary team will share over lunch in part of the building. I have no problem when women present.




Now....between the two services at church, I wish more women would be quiet in the lobby....men too, for that matter. I could care less about scrapbooking or football.

 

[GreenNnice]

hmmmm.....The way we do our missionary presentations is after the service, the missionary or missionary team will share over lunch in part of the building. I have no problem when women present.




Now....between the two services at church, I wish more women would be quiet in the lobby....men too, for that matter. I could care less about scrapbooking or football.

I still can't believe some would actually walk out of the church service--as a small minority, I think, are telling me they would do-- if a woman missionary came up to the pulpit to speak . I can't believe they can't see God's ways in this doing .
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jimdig!

Better be careful when you say junk like this, it will make you look like garbage, spewing propaganda into people's thoughts, like Hitler did in winning over the people to his morale goals

Last I recall, he doesn't even believe the Old Testament belongs in the bible

GEt it? Got it ? Better The Lord leads.

I believe in the inspired Word , front to back, back to front middle to front to back, back to front to middle.....

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

This has happened at churches I have attended in the past. While I never walked out (I guess they don't train us in Australia as well as they trained some of you Americans), it did make me very uncomfortable, and I really missed hearing a proper message those Sundays, as important as the missionary testimonies might have been.

(The other thing I don't like - wouldn't it be better for single women who are missionaries to marry another missionary, and support her husband in his work? Then there would be no need for her to speak in church at all. I understand there may be situations where marriage to a Godly missionary is not possible for some women, but I believe the single woman missionary is more common than it should be).

As a Christian man, I can't accept anything a woman might preach in church as a message from God, because if she were really sent by God, surely she would be obedient to Him by being submissive and even silent during the service? As a side note, we have a lot of feminism in Australian churches, but it seems to me, the more feminist a church becomes, the weaker its doctrine and faith (the numbers might be many, but the faith and doctrines are shallow or outright false). I am convinced that women preachers are an attempt by the devil to introduce false doctrines that Godly men would not be deceived by. Has anyone else had similar experiences?

 

[GreenNnice]

This has happened at churches I have attended in the past. While I never walked out (I guess they don't train us in Australia as well as they trained some of you Americans), it did make me very uncomfortable, and I really missed hearing a proper message those Sundays, as important as the missionary testimonies might have been.

(The other thing I don't like - wouldn't it be better for single women who are missionaries to marry another missionary, and support her husband in his work? Then there would be no need for her to speak in church at all. I understand there may be situations where marriage to a Godly missionary is not possible for some women, but I believe the single woman missionary is more common than it should be).

As a Christian man, I can't accept anything a woman might preach in church as a message from God, because if she were really sent by God, surely she would be obedient to Him by being submissive and even silent during the service? As a side note, we have a lot of feminism in Australian churches, but it seems to me, the more feminist a church becomes, the weaker its doctrine and faith (the numbers might be many, but the faith and doctrines are shallow or outright false). I am convinced that women preachers are an attempt by the devil to introduce false doctrines that Godly men would not be deceived by. Has anyone else had similar experiences?

You are convinced wrongly, too, for God speaks to all men's minds, and, women's and He is in us, too, we have 'the mind of Christ,' Scripture tells us. God works in us and through us, just as Scripture says right here, His Spirit leading us. Do you think the God of the universe can't keep a woman from staying in Him who WANTS to serve Him, teach, preach of Him ? Ha ! Of course, God CAN . YOu see, Eve was NOT a pastor, not a teacher, and, not a missionary appointed by God to do His work, so, she WAS DECEIVED. She was NOT with a calling and a understanding of God's power through her running, like a river, in her soul

And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don't know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God's own will.
Romans 8: 26-27

 

[Misty77]

"wouldn't it be better for single women who are missionaries to marry another missionary, and support her husband in his work"

This makes me sad, and a little frustrated. First of all, you are assuming that a person of marriageable age will of course find a spouse when they are ready. That is unfortunately not the case. There are many godly people who will either never marry or spend significant portions of their lives as singles. Even if they will eventually marry, do you expect women to just be on stand by until that time? That certainly goes against the teachings of Paul in I Corinthians.

Women are called to serve God, too. You don't necessarily know what His purpose is for another person. Telling women that they have to wait to serve God until they are "activated" by marriage is wrong. It's also naive of you to think that a woman supporting her husband's work is the equivalent to following God's purpose in her life.

God has a purpose for all people, including spouses. If or when God brings you into a marriage, it is important to understand that God has a plan for you as individuals as well as a family unit. Sometimes they will be the same, sometimes complimentary (one supporting the other), and sometimes they will be different. Submission to God and respect for each other makes it work.