A longie, but goodie. . .
Just briefly for now since it's late. Elin, thanks, but twice you quoted Starcrash, not me, so
you accidentally addressed me as if I had made those statements.
You are absolutely right.
In my response to your post to Starcrash, I twice attributed Starcrash's comments to you.
Thanks for pointing it out.
I apologize for the mistake and any confusion it caused.
. Also, you wrote, "And in the absence of that belief, there is no basis for discussion in a NT Christian forum, because since the beginning of the Church,
the whole NT is the basis of belief for the NT Christian."
Yes, I was referring to Starcrash's rejection of Paul's writings.
I retract the two comments to you which I mistakenly made in response to Starcrash.
So with those off the table, let's continue:
Have you not read about the First Council of Nicaea? Since the beginning of the Church,
some Christians believed that Jesus is God, and others believed that
Jesus was only the Son of God, not God.
That is probably due to the lack of a printing press and all Christians not having access
to the Scriptures to know what they actually stated.
The Bible is simply not crystal clear.
It is on this issue, which explains the consensus at which the bishops arrived in Nicaea.
Jesus is God:
1) Jesus is the YHWH of Isa 40:3
per Mt 3:3; Mk1:7-8; Lk 3:16; Jn 1:29-34.
2) Jesus is the YHWH of Joel 2:32
per Ro 10:9, 13-16.
3) Jesus is the YHWH of Dt 32:43
per Heb 1:6.
4) Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Zechariah
per Lk 1:67-68, 76.
5) Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Elizabeth
per Lk 1:41-43.
6) Jesus is the LORD GOD (YHWH) of Ps 68:18
per Eph 4:8-9.
7) Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Zec 12:8-10
per Jn 19:37.
8) Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Isa 61:8
per Lk 4:18-21.
9) Jesus is the LORD (YHWH), the First and Last of Isa 44:6, 48:12
per Rev 1:12-18.
10) Jesus is the Lord God, the Alpha and the Omega of Rev 21:6-7
per Rev 22:13-16.
11) Jesus is God on the throne of Rev 21:5, 7
per Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39; Rev 20:11-13.
12) Jesus is the Elohim Creator YHWH of Gen 1:1; Isa 44:24; and Jer 10:16
per Jn 1:3, 10;
Col 1:16-17; Heb 1:2, 10.
The Holy Spirit is both a person and God:
1) Jesus, whom the NT shows to be God (above), said the Holy Spirit proceeded from
(came forth from, out of) God just as he did
per Jn 15:26.
2) Jesus, who is God, said the Holy Spirit was
another Comforter like himself (God)
per Jn 14:16-17,
25-26, 15:26, 16:7.
3) The NT refers to the Holy Spirit with
personal pronouns (he),
personal titles (Comforter) and
personal functions (intelligence, will, speaking, deciding, forbidding, testifying, searching into secrets,
showing the future, sending out missionaries, interceding),
because he is a person.
But you would have needed your own set of Scriptures to see that.
However, the NT has
always and everywhere presented Jesus and the Holy Spirit as God,
and always and everywhere presented only one God.
I am asking questions honestly. I will finish reading Romans before I comment again,
but will I be banned for simply pointing out what I see as contradictions? . . .I think you are
being too harsh, and you have made the mistake of stating things as if they were facts
(for example, you stated that the appearance of Samuel to Saul through a medium was a
satanic deception, when in reality there is no consensus on the matter).
I understand what you are saying, but as with the clear Scriptures above on the Trinity,
present non-consensus on a matter does not mean it is unclear.
The account of Saul must be understood in the light of the whole counsel of God,
where some understandings can be seen to be unbiblical.
Saul probably sensed a disaster coming in the approaching battle, and inquired of the LORD,
who did not answer him (1Chr 28:9; 2Chr 15:2; Pr 8:17) because he sought the LORD
too late (Isa 55:6). And when the LORD did not answer him, he turned from the LORD
to a witch. And to turn
from the LORD, is
necessarily to turn
to Satan.
From the whole counsel of God, we know that
1) witches do not have the power to summon the redeemed from their resting place with God
and bring them back to this world;
2) the real Samuel would not have agreed that she could, and responded by doing so;
3) the only spirits that can be summoned by witches are evil spirits;
4) had it been truly Samuel, he would have told Saul to repent and make peace with
God, to bring David out of punishment and then he would
have peace with God; and
5) to turn from the LORD is
necessarily to turn to Satan.
Therefore, the spirit she had summoned up was an evil spirit impersonating Samuel,
"Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
Saul believed the delusion, and it convinced him of the power of divination,
ensnaring him in the web of Satan's scheme, which was to drive Saul to depair and
suicide (1Sa 31:4).
"Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD
and even consulted a medium for guidance, and did not inquire of the LORD (i.e., inquired
of a medium). So the LORD put him to death. . ." (1Chr 10:13-14; see 2Sa 7:15)
And as with the Christ-rejecting High Priest Caiphas,
words of prophecy are spoken by the impersonating spirit who foretold Saul's death
because God had given Saul over for destruction (1Kgs 22:20-22; Ro 1:24, 26, 28; 1Co 5:5).
The account is recorded simply as it occurred.
But in the context of the whole counsel of God, its spiritual facts are clear.