we got the natural and the grafted...

[homwardbound]

It has always been my understanding, as long as we produce good fruit, we are become the natural. That being said, the moment any grafted in boast themselves over the natural branches that boaster may just as easily be pruned and thrown into the fire.

As for the child, as long as the child is reared truly in the faith, that child is become the natural. Remember some of the natural were pruned for their misconduct, so if they were not spared......well, you already know the rest.

Or you might see it this way, in the pruning, to grow more grapes, as what pruning the grape vine does. Or when a vine has fallen on the ground it is lifted up and held off the ground to produce. God's loving kindness in the pruning of the vine:

[h=3]John 15[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. [SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[Josh321]

I think that God has a plan for the Jews that is separate from the plan God has for those who are not. God doesn't give us the entire plan, but He tells us what we are to do about it. That is to let God handle it. God says that if we bless them He will bless us and if we curse them, He will curse us.

God also tells us that it is His doing that they are blinded to the acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah, and we are to trust Him with that, too.

So all the speculation we have about what the mind of God is in this simply isn't going to work, God's mind is above our mind, there comes a point where we just have to trust Him. I think this is a subject where the only answer is trust in our Lord.

We can know that God's love for all the humans of His creation are loved equally.

exactly, so that is why we don't really have to worry about them because they are in God's hands until the fulness of the gentiles comes in

 

[crossnote]

exactly, so that is why we don't really have to worry about them because they are in God's hands until the fulness of the gentiles comes in

I believe after the fullness of the gentiles...then God will once again focus on the natural branches e.g. great tribulation, restoration of multitudes of natural Jews coming to now their Messiah etc.

 

[jahsoul]

*quick side note*
Romans 11 didn't mention Jews anywhere. Paul did not give any Jewish credentials but he spoke of being a Israelite, which is what Romans 11 is speaking of. Jews (at least not religious Jews) are not the natural branches. As much as Paul talked about the Jews in his writing, they didn't get ONE mention in this particular chapter. Just throwing that out there because that leads to a lot of confusion.

 

[4enlightment]

Jew [E] [H](a man of Judea ). This name was properly applied to a member of the kingdom of Judah after the separation of the ten tribes.

Judah [N] [E] [H]
(praised, celebrated ), the fourth son of Jacob and the fourth of Leah. (B.C. after 1753.) Of Judahs personal character more traits are preserved than of any other of the patriarchs, Judah - Smith's Bible Dictionary Online

Israel [N] [E] [H]
(the prince that prevails with God ).

1. The name given, ( Genesis 32:28 ) to Jacob after his wrestling with the angel, ( Hosea 12:4 ) at Peniel. Gesenius interprets Israel "soldier of God." Israel - Smith's Bible Dictionary Online

A Jew is someone that praises God only, but if the name doesn't fit them, then they are not a Jew. But if a person is perceiving it in the natural, will be judge by the way that person perception.

Matthew 7:2
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

 

[TheAristocat]

I think they would still be grafted in like us,Birthright Bloodline is a natural branch.

I think this problem goes deeper than one might expect. Ask some Jews what makes a true Jew and you'll get a broad range of answers from simply accepting the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Jewish identity to one's mother being Jewish and then being endorsed by a Rabbi.

So in order to answer the question we need to first know what defines a natural branch. And I think you're going to be hard pressed to find a completely satisfying answer.

 

[JaumeJ]

Philisophically speaking, when asking a question of two Jews you will receive three different answers. Of course this seems to apply to non-Jews also.

For good examples, look to the replies to any post here containing a question............wow!

I think this problem goes deeper than one might expect. Ask some Jews what makes a true Jew and you'll get a broad range of answers from simply accepting the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Jewish identity to one's mother being Jewish and then being endorsed by a Rabbi.

So in order to answer the question we need to first know what defines a natural branch. And I think you're going to be hard pressed to find a completely satisfying answer.

 

[Bryancampbell]

I think this problem goes deeper than one might expect. Ask some Jews what makes a true Jew and you'll get a broad range of answers from simply accepting the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Jewish identity to one's mother being Jewish and then being endorsed by a Rabbi.

So in order to answer the question we need to first know what defines a natural branch. And I think you're going to be hard pressed to find a completely satisfying answer.

Yea this seems to be very true, then you got different branches of practices and teachings, one from the western view which is divided itself, another which is eastern from the middle east.

 

[Bryancampbell]

I hope it's not critical thinking in the wrong, but honestly. I think of Jews nowadays no different than Gentile. So many mixes and everything, even the way they label statuses according to their philosophy. It makes them no different than a Samaritan in my opinion. But correct me if I'm wrong lol.

 

[JaumeJ]

Son, you are beyond your years in understanding, and I hope in practice also. Do not ever even entertain the thought of utilizing those statuses or philosophies as a standard! We have a Standard, Yeshua, Jesus, amen. Forgive my sending this here but I could not add this with adding to your rep..............not allowed.

I hope it's not critical thinking in the wrong, but honestly. I think of Jews nowadays no different than Gentile. So many mixes and everything, even the way they label statuses according to their philosophy. It makes them no different than a Samaritan in my opinion. But correct me if I'm wrong lol.

 

[Bryancampbell]

Son, you are beyond your years in understanding, and I hope in practice also. Do not ever even entertain the thought of utilizing those statuses or philosophies as a standard! We have a Standard, Yeshua, Jesus, amen. Forgive my sending this here but I could not add this with adding to your rep..............not allowed.

Thanks for your wise posts as well brother. Don't worry about it, I completely agree. But I do admit, I question sometimes who is Israel anymore, if everyone is confused on who is a Jew? So I'm not that exceedingly far in knowledge and understanding in all things. But I shouldn't worry about that, in the end everyone who follows Y'shua is the ones who will make it out alive. But I appreciate that brother, the only standard is the Lord

 

[p_rehbein]

I hope it's not critical thinking in the wrong, but honestly. I think of Jews nowadays no different than Gentile. So many mixes and everything, even the way they label statuses according to their philosophy. It makes them no different than a Samaritan in my opinion. But correct me if I'm wrong lol.

The Apostle gives us a "hint" does he not? He said (paraphrased) He is not a Jew who is one outwardly, but inwardly.......it is not the circumcision of the flesh, but the heart........As I read the Apostles writings, it seems to me that with the coming of the New Covenant, Grace, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that Paul considered "true Jews" to be those people (regardless of their heritage) who accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

All who are "heirs to the Promise" appear to be who he saw as true Jews............so, you can go from there........

 

[Bryancampbell]

The Apostle gives us a "hint" does he not? He said (paraphrased) He is not a Jew who is one outwardly, but inwardly.......it is not the circumcision of the flesh, but the heart........As I read the Apostles writings, it seems to me that with the coming of the New Covenant, Grace, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that Paul considered "true Jews" to be those people (regardless of their heritage) who accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

All who are "heirs to the Promise" appear to be who he saw as true Jews............so, you can go from there........

Brother, I agree what Paul taught. But I was referring to the children of Israel. I know Jews are the ones who follow Christ, but what about the first born to the promise that failed to see Christ?

 

[p_rehbein]

Brother, I agree what Paul taught. But I was referring to the children of Israel. I know Jews are the ones who follow Christ, but what about the first born to the promise that failed to see Christ?

Not sure what you are asking..............Jesus Christ is the "first born......first fruit,"

and with regards to "the children of Israel who denied Christ," they are of those the Apostle spoke of........being a Jew outwardly, born a Jew.........it appears he considered these to be the branches which were cut off of the tree and cast away.

Let me gather some Scriptures for you to consider.

 

[crossnote]

It has always been my understanding, as long as we produce good fruit, we are become the natural.

My understanding is that in order to produce fruit we must first be grafted in. ¿n'est pas?

 

[JaumeJ]

Here is a quote from my Hebrew study this morning which may have a bearing on your commentary. It may even add understanhding to that which you already demonstrate. Many prophets will prophesy about Jacob and Israel and sometimes it is Abraham and Israel, while refences are made of Isaac whose sons are sons of promise in the New Testament.

There are the Two Flocks brought together by the Good Shepherd. When we think of the First, we already know while He walked His world He would only address the Jews, the first flock.

Then coming to that second flock which He said He would join with the first, we all seem to agree He is making reference to the Nations. All of the flocks will comprise the Israel of Yahweh, and when we examine the name, Israel, we may understand it as "Ruler with God (El)" or just as accurate would be "Prince with God (El.)"

We also already are aware that we, as having come to Yeshua for the Salvation in His Gospel, are become components of His Body, the Body of the Ruler of Peace and the Prince with God (El). All of these thruths afford great reward in thier promise, and the promise is from Yahweh, God, amen.

Of course reading before and after given quotes is always recommended, for the Word does not begin with any one selection other than "In the beginning."

Isa 49:5
And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

(This cannot be a reference to the nations, Israel that is, because the Israel of Yahweh will be the two flocks, those in the blood line of Abraham and those of the nations, thus it seems prudent to understand this reference is to the Israel and the Jacob of the blood line of Abraham, and this is no threat to the gathering of the Two Flocks, for all will be the Israel of Yahweh, the Nations and Jacob.)

Isa 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isa 49:7
Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

Isa 49:8
Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

Isa 49:9
That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.

Isa 49:10
They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

Isa 49:11
And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.

Isa 49:12
Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.

Isa 49:13
Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.

Brother, I agree what Paul taught. But I was referring to the children of Israel. I know Jews are the ones who follow Christ, but what about the first born to the promise that failed to see Christ?

Not sure what you are asking..............Jesus Christ is the "first born......first fruit,"

and with regards to "the children of Israel who denied Christ," they are of those the Apostle spoke of........being a Jew outwardly, born a Jew.........it appears he considered these to be the branches which were cut off of the tree and cast away.

Let me gather some Scriptures for you to consider.

 

[psychomom]

Here is a quote from my Hebrew study this morning which may have a bearing on your commentary. It may even add understanhding to that which you already demonstrate. Many prophets will prophesy about Jacob and Israel and sometimes it is Abraham and Israel, while refences are made of Isaac whose sons are sons of promise in the New Testament.

There are the Two Flocks brought together by the Good Shepherd. When we think of the First, we already know while He walked His world He would only address the Jews, the first flock.

Hi, Jack.

Luke 7 springs to mind...the Roman centurion. A gentile.

And, of course, John 4:1-42. The woman at the well. A gentile.
The chapter tells us this:
(v. 39-42)
From that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.”
So when the Samaritans came to Jesus, they were asking Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days.
Many more believed because of His word;
and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.”

Matt 15 tells us of the Canaanite woman, as well.

So, yes, the Lord says he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, but it seems He began saving the gentiles, bringing them the Gospel even while he lived among us, don't you think?

What a wonderful Savior!

love to you-
ellie

 

[JaumeJ]

I have heard the Samaritans were of the tribes of Israel, but they had fallen into ill repute with Judah and Israel. I realized Yeshua had spoken to these people, and until very recently I had wondered about them, in particualar the woman at the well and the others who came to hear about Messiah. For me, because of the many contributions of family here, the jury is still out on that because I do believe Jesus to the letter, and I say this in regard to my own understanding, so do not think I am being adamant about it. As you indicated it does say that He said He was sent for the specific lost sheep of His people, but this could and does have a myriad of interpretations, and many, though opposing are absolutely spot on. After all He came for His people, and this would be all who believe Him. Yes! What a wonderful Savior have we, amen.

Hi, Jack.

Luke 7 springs to mind...the Roman centurion. A gentile.

And, of course, John 4:1-42. The woman at the well. A gentile.
The chapter tells us this:
(v. 39-42)
From that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.”
So when the Samaritans came to Jesus, they were asking Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days.
Many more believed because of His word;
and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.”

Matt 15 tells us of the Canaanite woman, as well.

So, yes, the Lord says he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, but it seems He began saving the gentiles, bringing them the Gospel even while he lived among us, don't you think?

What a wonderful Savior!

love to you-
ellie

 

[crossnote]

Romans 9:3-5 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

All the above applies to Paul's kinsmen according to the flesh and not to one born into a christian family.

 

[Bryancampbell]

I got another question, the bible I think separated three types of people. Jew, Samaritan, and Gentile. (I'm not talking spiritual but ethnicity) but if the Samaritan, who claim to be of Joseph, that were rejected by Jews for being a mixed and abandoned people, what does that make of "modern Jews" of today's time, since they are scattered abroad? Isn't that hypocrisy to say they aren't Israelites as much as they?