Saved Through Faith - Justified by Works

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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,712
3,651
113
#21
Romans 4:2-8 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

You can't get any clearer than the above.
 
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konroh

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2013
615
21
18
#22
The key to James discussion of faith and works is James 2:26 "As the body without the spirit is dead so faith without works is dead."

If I draw a pic of a body and spirit and say, "Which is the faith, which is the works?" Most everyone would say that the faith is the spirit inside that makes our body alive. But that's exactly what James doesn't say!
He says that the spirit is the works which causes the body of faith to be alive! Amazing! James is emphasizing faith in our sanctification, and the intrinsic benefit to making our faith grow and be vibrant and alive by doing good works which everyone can see.

ignoble bump.
:cool:
 
Feb 17, 2010
3,620
27
0
#23
I can agree with everything you just said. Amen!
Do you also agree with this.... If a person has faith, that faith will have him.... TAKE UP YOUR CROSS AND FOLLOW JESUS!
Also a person that does not beleive Jesus is the Messiah, will not take up his cross and he will not follow Jesus....

So in my evaluation of people I find....

Some people wondering around not bearing crosses... Just walking as they want.

Some people bearing crosses not folowing anything or everythin accept Jesus.....

Some people bearing crosses following Jesus, and then stop, and then hurry to catch up and follow again....

Some people following Jesus without crosses, they threw the cross down, and they also are sent BACK to fetch their crosses...

And then there are the people that take up their crosses daily and follow Jesus without even going off coarce one inch! They just KEEP Jesus in their sights and they follow EVERY DAY bearing their crosses...

Can Jesus do HIS LEADING with people that does not FOLLOW?
 

brmicke

Senior Member
Sep 6, 2012
276
6
18
#24
Very Nice Konroh -I am reading and considering your response right now - thank you for it.
 
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
35
0
#25
The key to James discussion of faith and works is James 2:26 "As the body without the spirit is dead so faith without works is dead."

If I draw a pic of a body and spirit and say, "Which is the faith, which is the works?" Most everyone would say that the faith is the spirit inside that makes our body alive. But that's exactly what James doesn't say!
He says that the spirit is the works which causes the body of faith to be alive! Amazing! James is emphasizing faith in our sanctification, and the intrinsic benefit to making our faith grow and be vibrant and alive by doing good works which everyone can see.

ignoble bump.
:cool:

Thanks for this post - God has works for us that He created - we do them - we get a blessing as we are a blessing - living is the giving
 
L

Least

Guest
#26
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Hebrews 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Hebrews 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Note: (Abraham didn't just sit back and say, "I believe," he did what God told him to do.)

Jesus also talked about this.
Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Hebrews 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Hebrews 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Hebrews 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Hebrews 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Hebrews 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
Hebrews 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
Hebrews 11:21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
Hebrews 11:22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
Hebrews 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Hebrews 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
Hebrews 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
Hebrews 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Hebrews 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
Hebrews 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
Hebrews 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
Hebrews 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
Hebrews 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Hebrews 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Hebrews 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Hebrews 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hebrews 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Hebrews 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Hebrews 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Hebrews 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

It can't get any clearer than that....
 
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
35
0
#27
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Hebrews 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Hebrews 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Note: (Abraham didn't just sit back and say, "I believe," he did what God told him to do.)

Jesus also talked about this.
Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Hebrews 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Hebrews 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Hebrews 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Hebrews 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Hebrews 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
Hebrews 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
Hebrews 11:21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
Hebrews 11:22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
Hebrews 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Hebrews 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
Hebrews 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
Hebrews 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Hebrews 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
Hebrews 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
Hebrews 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
Hebrews 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
Hebrews 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Hebrews 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Hebrews 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Hebrews 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hebrews 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Hebrews 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Hebrews 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Hebrews 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

It can't get any clearer than that....
How about a passage that includes the word and definition of justification

Hebrews 12 - i love it - do you work for the love of your earthly father, or do you work for your earthly father because you love him and respect him. Then you use Hebrews 11 which exults things done in faith which justified them - by faith

ultimately what is the agenda behind this post?
-is it to say that our works save us,
-that saving faith produces things like good works

Is this a reaction to Decisional Salvation that people prayed some dumb prayer 10 years ago in AWANA and they think they are saved, but show no fruit?

Do we trust that the Holy Spirit actually convicts, and convicts a sinner of their sin?
Do we trust that the Holy Spirit produces fruit in a born again believer towards repentance and Godliness/righteousness?
Do we believe that God is sovereign or man is sovereign?

Did Paul totally understand if it was him, or the Holy Spirit in him - no - like pedals on a bicycle - Believers have free will in the truest sense in that they can choose not to sin, and choose righteousness. The problem lies that we can still choose to sin, and disobey
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#28
Justified by faith...Rom 3:28, 5:1, 5:9 by the blood
1 Cor 6:11 by His name
Gal 2:16 by Christ's faith, 3:24 by faith
Titus 3:7 by grace

OK then. We are saved and justified before God by Christ. We justify ourselves before men by our works.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
L

Least

Guest
#29
Romans 4:2-8 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

You can't get any clearer than the above.
Great passage crossnote,

When compared to other scriptures, it can't get any clearer. Especially if it is prayerfully studied out.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Romans Ch. 4 begins with this verse.

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Romans 4 is about walking in the spirit and not according to the flesh, and it continues through the next few chapters as well.

Chapters 4,5 and 6

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Romans 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It actually continues for several more chapters...ch.
 
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know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,071
167
63
#30
Romans 4:2-8 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

You can't get any clearer than the above.
You can't justify one verse and ignore another. James must be explained.
Paul is referring to the works of the law, James is referring to works of faith. Justification without the works of the law, but justified through the works of faith. That is the difference. Works of the law is of man, works of faith is of God.
 
L

Least

Guest
#31
Justified by faith...Rom 3:28, 5:1, 5:9 by the blood
1 Cor 6:11 by His name
Gal 2:16 by Christ's faith, 3:24 by faith
Titus 3:7 by grace

OK then. We are saved and justified before God by Christ. We justify ourselves before men by our works.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Hi Roger,

I think that there's a thin line in the idea that we justify ourselves before men by our works. With the example of Noah, he was ridiculed by men, as were many other prophets. Yet they were obedient to God even through that. I think that's where the justification comes in. Being justified by God, witness by men perhaps?

I believe that if we're abiding in Christ, men will see the works that Christ leads us into and even our character.

Matthew 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Matthew 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Matthew 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
 
L

Least

Guest
#32
How many written of in the scriptures were justified by men when they did what God said to do? Most of the OT prophets suffered persecution. Jeremiah is referred to as the weeping prophet, and most didn't heed what he said.

When God sent Jonah to Nineveh to prophecy against them, Jonah ran the other way, and ended up in the belly of a whale, and afterwards he did as God said.

Works are about being pleasing to God and not men.

The works that the prophets did and especially the works that Jesus did, still testify to us today.

Many rejected them, and Jesus said that if the world hates us, remember that it hated him too...


That's the work that testifies to men. Obedience to God through Christ Jesus.
 
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know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,071
167
63
#33
Justified by faith...Rom 3:28, 5:1, 5:9 by the blood
1 Cor 6:11 by His name
Gal 2:16 by Christ's faith, 3:24 by faith
Titus 3:7 by grace

OK then. We are saved and justified before God by Christ. We justify ourselves before men by our works.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
That would be by the faith of Christ. Christ's faith does not justify itself before man, but before God.
Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Jas_2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
And,

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#34
You can't justify one verse and ignore another. James must be explained.
Paul is referring to the works of the law, James is referring to works of faith. Justification without the works of the law, but justified through the works of faith. That is the difference. Works of the law is of man, works of faith is of God.

No. This is not even it.

James is talking about faith vs faith

Paul is talking how we are saved.

Paul said those who are saved will do works (even if they are works of the law)

James is saying if one says he has faith but has zero works (including any work which is commanded by God) or fruits of real faith spoken of by Paul in eph 2. They that person is a liar. His faith is dead (has no life, thus has no salvation)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#35
Hi Roger,

I think that there's a thin line in the idea that we justify ourselves before men by our works. With the example of Noah, he was ridiculed by men, as were many other prophets. Yet they were obedient to God even through that. I think that's where the justification comes in. Being justified by God, witness by men perhaps?

I believe that if we're abiding in Christ, men will see the works that Christ leads us into and even our character.

Matthew 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Matthew 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Matthew 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Justify is a legal term. Actually the same greek word is used and is also translated righteous.

It means declared innocent of Guilt. Set free of the penalty.

Are we justified (set free) because of works of ANY TYPE that we do (as in we pay for our own sin by working to set ourselves free) or are we justified by solely the work of Christ on the cross. and our faith in his forgiveness.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#36
Romans 4:2-8 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

You can't get any clearer than the above.
Righteousness is through a heart that is in submission to God by which the power of God works through an individual. Hence a man is justified by FAITH apart from the deeds of the law. The deeds of the law can be done apart from faith and Paul clearly teaches that faith works by love which is the root of righteousness (see Gal 2 and 5).

In Rom 4:2-8 Paul quotes Psalm 32...

Psa 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

A spirit having no guile is related to the non-imputation of iniquity. Hence God forgives those who forsake their iniquity and return to Him and walk in the spirit of His grace.

Many people unfortunately have fallen for an error which teaches that "faith apart from works" means "believing apart from doing" which is simply not true. True belief ALWAYS results in doing because true belief is abiding in the will of God with a true heart. There is no rebellion to God in a faith that is reckoned for righteousness.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#37
Hi Roger,

I think that there's a thin line in the idea that we justify ourselves before men by our works. With the example of Noah, he was ridiculed by men, as were many other prophets. Yet they were obedient to God even through that. I think that's where the justification comes in. Being justified by God, witness by men perhaps?

I believe that if we're abiding in Christ, men will see the works that Christ leads us into and even our character.

Matthew 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Matthew 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Matthew 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Just to clarify. Men see our works and know from them that we have faith. Justification before men is of no Spiritual consequence. James is speaking of a faith that does not evidence works as dead. One who claims to be saved but does not show forth works fit for repentance may not have the salvation they claim.

We are saved by grace received through faith not saved by faith. We produce works by grace because we have been changed into a new creation in Christ.

Are grace and faith interchangeable?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#38
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Hebrews 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Hebrews 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Note: (Abraham didn't just sit back and say, "I believe," he did what God told him to do.)

Jesus also talked about this.
Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Hebrews 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Hebrews 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Hebrews 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Hebrews 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Hebrews 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
Hebrews 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
Hebrews 11:21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
Hebrews 11:22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
Hebrews 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Hebrews 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
Hebrews 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
Hebrews 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Hebrews 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
Hebrews 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
Hebrews 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
Hebrews 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
Hebrews 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Hebrews 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Hebrews 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Hebrews 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hebrews 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Hebrews 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Hebrews 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Hebrews 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

It can't get any clearer than that....
It seems one is mixing justification with sanctification. Which are you referring to?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#39
You can't justify one verse and ignore another. James must be explained.
Paul is referring to the works of the law, James is referring to works of faith. Justification without the works of the law, but justified through the works of faith. That is the difference. Works of the law is of man, works of faith is of God.
I gave a Scripture passage showing clearly justification is by faith alone. James is simply showing the fruit of a matured faith as found with Abraham as he offered his only son. Still it was faith MOVED BY A PROMISE. That is the Christian walk from first to last.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#40
Many people unfortunately have fallen for an error which teaches that "faith apart from works" means "believing apart from doing" which is simply not true. True belief ALWAYS results in doing because true belief is abiding in the will of God with a true heart. There is no rebellion to God in a faith that is reckoned for righteousness.
I agree with most of your post, but would like to say that doing is not hurting. In other words, not hurting one's neighbor is doing GOD's will.

Love does not commit evil against a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:10​