Dangers Of The False Messianic Movement

Praus · Oct 16, 2013

That's what I was asking here, I'm glad someone could answer.

According to Aristocat the CJB is correct and the OJB is wrong. The OJB translator's website says:

"Testimonial from the Publisher (link -> About Us)
Dr. Phillip E. Goble is the translator of THE ORTHODOX JEWISH BIBLE. He is considered a leading authority in the world in his area of theological expertise. His books are cited in the standard historical dictionaries published by major academic publishers like Zondervan, Baker Book House and others."

Aristocat, how did you arrive at the conclusion that Yeshua is correct and Yehoshua is not?

What knowledge do you know have Dr. Goble doesn't?

directline2iam · Oct 16, 2013

Praus said:

So then is it Yeshua or Yehoshua? Both of the following are Messianic Bible translations, which one is wrong?

Hisgalus 22:16 “I, Yehoshua sent My malach (angel) to give solemn eidus (testimony) to you of these things, for the Kehillot. I am the Shoresh (root) and the offspring of Dovid, the Kokhav HaShachar. (Orthodox Jewish Bible)

Rev 22:16 “I, Yeshua, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the Messianic communities. I am the Root and Offspring of David, the bright Morning Star. (Complete Jewish Bible)

Why do either of them have to be wrong?

TheAristocat · Oct 16, 2013

Praus said:

That's what I was asking here, I'm glad someone could answer.

According to Aristocat the CJB is correct and the OJB is wrong. The OJB translator's website says:

"Testimonial from the Publisher (link -> About Us)
Dr. Phillip E. Goble is the translator of THE ORTHODOX JEWISH BIBLE. He is considered a leading authority in the world in his area of theological expertise. His books are cited in the standard historical dictionaries published by major academic publishers like Zondervan, Baker Book House and others."

Aristocat, how did you arrive at the conclusion that Yeshua is correct and Yehoshua is not?

What knowledge do you know have Dr. Goble doesn't?

The Holy Spirit led me?

TheAristocat · Oct 16, 2013

directline2iam said:

I don't think either of them are necessarily wrong. Of course the earliest form of Revelation we have is probably in Greek, and we'd have to work off of the Greek to figure out the Hebrew. But the name that corresponds to Iesous is Yehoshua, and the shortened form of Yehoshua is Yeshua. Jesus had many names, but none of which were Jesus at that time. That's my point. Not that it really matters. I call him Jesus all the time, because I still know what it means.

directline2iam · Oct 16, 2013

TheAristocat said:

I don't think either of them are necessarily wrong. Of course the earliest form of Revelation we have is probably in Greek, and we'd have to work off of the Greek to figure out the Hebrew. But the name that corresponds to Iesous is Yehoshua, and the shortened form of Yehoshua is Yeshua. Jesus had many names, but none of which were Jesus at that time. That's my point. Not that it really matters. I call him Jesus all the time, because I still know what it means.

Ya, and you know what, I don't think Jesus minds at all.

Praus · Oct 16, 2013

TheAristocat said:

That's not very reassuring, since we know that in English the name Jesus is always correct.

TheAristocat said:

We'd have to figure out the Hebrew?

Why?

You've already cautioned us that Yeshua was His name. This is a very strange teaching style you have.

TheAristocat said:

Praus · Oct 16, 2013

directline2iam said:

Because it's the Name of God.

7 Things You Need to Know about the Torah | Mental Floss

"There are over 4,000 laws that dictate the writing. Even the slightest slip of the pen, the smallest mistake, can be reason to burn the scroll and start over, especially if a mistake is found in the word God. Indeed, God's name is so holy, a scribe must bathe in a mikvah (ritual pool) before writing the Lord's four-letter (Hebrew) name."

TheAristocat · Oct 16, 2013

Praus said:

When I said that, I meant I was cautioning you on the overarching point of my post - that the Messianic movement is not the same as Messianic Judaism. I just didn't want anyone confused on this point and placing accusations or blame where it didn't belong. The note about Yeshua being Jesus' original name was a side note meant to show that while those of the sacred name cults have a great deal of heresy in their teachings the name Yeshua is not one of them. Sorry for the confusion.

directline2iam · Oct 16, 2013

Praus said:

He is correct in sayingYeshua is the Hebrew name for the Lord. It means "Yahweh [the Lord] is Salvation." The English spelling of Yeshua is “Joshua.” However, when translated from Hebrew into the Greek language, the name Yeshua becomes Iēsous. The English spelling for Iēsous is “Jesus.”

I guess the english speaking people all use the name Jesus so we know we are in hopefully the right church when we travel away from home. The name has become common to relate to the Triune God

Hizikyah · Oct 16, 2013

Praus said:

I didm not read the entire thing and cant speak to put everyone in a single catagory, but...

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, hhe will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 7:21, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:

#0458 ἀνομία anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Revelation 14:12, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, in conformity with the faith in Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

seems what this guy calls a "danger" is inthe Scriptures Insturctions DIRECTLY from the Messiah.

Praus · Oct 16, 2013

directline2iam said:

He is correct in sayingYeshua is the Hebrew name for the Lord. It means "Yahweh [the Lord] is Salvation." The English spelling of Yeshua is “Joshua.” However, when translated from Hebrew into the Greek language, the name Yeshua becomes Iēsous. The English spelling for Iēsous is “Jesus.”

I guess the english speaking people all use the name Jesus so we know we are in hopefully the right church when we travel away from home. The name has become common to relate to the Triune God

On what basis did you decide that Yahweh is the correct translation for יְהֹוָה?

Praus · Oct 16, 2013

Hizikyah said:

What are you trying to say about "practices falsehood" teacher Hizikyah?

James 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment. (NASB)

Praus said:

Yahshua · Oct 16, 2013

directline2iam said:

Hi everyone. My name is Joshua. That's the name my mom gave me in the hospital...and for anyone who knows me personally my name is Joshua or Josh or JP.

I graduated from high school and got my first part-time job working at my dad's job. It was a clothing distribution company that had two levels: the white collar section on the upper floors for the executives and the blue collar section on the 1st floor for those who manufactured sample swatches and clothes. My dad was an exec, but I worked on the 1st floor cleaning up jpegs on the computer for the samples. They loved my work so much that I got a small raise and a cubicle on the upper floors.

My dad was introducing me around to everyone and as you can imagine not everyone remembered my name right off the bat. One such person knew my name began with a "J" but couldn't remember what it was...but being my new boss, she needed to call me over several times throughout the day. So she called me "James".

Not seeing any harm in it, and understanding she didn't really know me intimately, I walked over to her, smiled gentle and said "it's Josh". She said, "oh I"m sorry lol, but I need you to..." and went on telling me what she needed.

...The next day, she called me over again; "John!" I look up to see who she was talking to because I hadn't met any Johns who worked there but she was looking directly at me. I hurried over to her and again smiled and said "It's Josh". She smiled and continued to tell me what she needed from me.

...The next day, she called me over again "Jim!" I look up and walk over there, no longer as enthusiastic. Being 18 years old, I couldn't understand why she was having problems remembering my name. She was in her early 40s sharp as a tack. I was walking over to her preparing to gently correct her again, when suddenly one of her co-workers - visibly frustrated - said "JOSHUA! His name is JOSHUA! Why can't you call him by his name!?" She brushed it off smiling saying "oh he knows I was talking to him, don't you?" I managed a smile...but it was at that moment that I realized she no plans to call me by my God-given name...because she absolutely knew I would come when she called.

...The next day she calls me over again; "Jerry!" There were no Jerries on our floor.

I don't move one inch. I don't budge. I don't even look up. I purposely ignore her. "JERRY!!" I continue with my other work. A silence falls over the room as everyone gets quiet. I knew she was calling on me, but what was once innocent ignorance turned into painful disrespect. Mary didn't feel she needed to call me by my name (even though she clearly KNEW my real name), simply because she also KNEW I would come whenever she called on me. But it no longer mattered whether or not she was my boss; it didn't matter how emphatically she yelled a name that was meant for me. What mattered was that she KNEW my God-given name and refused to use it. She didn't even try to honor me; to give me that small token of basic respect that one person will give to even the least familiar of acquaintances. So I ignored her...and everyone else knew exactly what I was doing.

After what seemed like forever, the silence was broken with "Josh can you come here please?"

I calmly rise from my cubicle and walk over to her, no longer as soft with a smile. She says to me quietly with a smile, "you know I was calling you..." I didn't reply I just stared at her. She then told me what she needed from me. From then on she never called me by another name again.

----

All my childhood I knew Christ as "Jesus". Sunday after Sunday for years that was the name I had hear, read, spoke, and prayed to...But one day I decided to study. I decided to get to know the lord better than I did, and in studying I discovered that his God-given name was nowhere near the name Jesus; that even the letter "j" is only about 600 years old, and the "j's" sound is younger than that ("J" used to sound like a "y"). And so after learning his real name, if I continued calling him "Jesus" (to me) it would've been like Mary continuing to call me "Jerry" (or some other name). Sure it would take major effort to recondition my mouth to use his real name instead of "Jesus" but I asked myself, "would I expect any less effort from someone like Mary to give ME that respect? As small of a gesture as it is to call me by my God-given name?", ESPECIALLY when my real name is a closer form of his real name than "Jesus" is?

So for me it was a choice between my humility and my pride. He's not my subordinate who does MY bidding whenever I call. He's my MASTER who *I* serve. And even if he were my subordinate (like I was to Mary), should I honor him any less?

So that's why I honor his original name.

tovrose · Oct 17, 2013

TheAristocat said:

Actually, they are both correct.
It is the same as calling a person Michael or Mike.
Mike is just the "short version" of Michael.
Yeshua is just the short version of Yehoshua.

-Tov
The New Messianic Version of the Bible

HeRoseFromTheDead · Oct 17, 2013

I really don't like the word Jesus, but I use it to make things less complicated when dealing with people who do use it. I recognize that Yahsua is a better pronunciation, but I prefer Joshua because it's less pretentious, IMO, for those who speak English.

It's all really just a stupid, confusing mess.

Really stupid...

Does a father really care what his child calls him?

Hizikyah · Oct 17, 2013

Praus said:

You would have to specify a bit here, im not sure what you are implying.

Hizikyah · Oct 17, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

I have to say Im delighted personally about your like for Yahshua/Joshua.

Over a hundred times Yahweh talks about the importance ofHis Name and Acts 4:12 says there is only one Name we muct call on to be saved. Im not implying any strict doctrine just qouting Scripture and saying because of these things I personally find the Names of Yahweh and Yahshua important and very special!

Praus · Oct 17, 2013

tovrose said:

You're very first post on Christian Chat and you're already violating the forum rules trying sell your books.

This is typical behavior by messianics.

http://christianchat.com/rules.php

6. No unauthorized advertising or soliciting or recruiting.

zone · Oct 17, 2013

Yahshua said:

Hi everyone. My name is Joshua. That's the name my mom gave me in the hospital...and for anyone who knows me personally my name is Joshua or Josh or JP.

I graduated from high school and got my first part-time job working at my dad's job. It was a clothing distribution company that had two levels: the white collar section on the upper floors for the executives and the blue collar section on the 1st floor for those who manufactured sample swatches and clothes. My dad was an exec, but I worked on the 1st floor cleaning up jpegs on the computer for the samples. They loved my work so much that I got a small raise and a cubicle on the upper floors.

My dad was introducing me around to everyone and as you can imagine not everyone remembered my name right off the bat. One such person knew my name began with a "J" but couldn't remember what it was...but being my new boss, she needed to call me over several times throughout the day. So she called me "James".

Not seeing any harm in it, and understanding she didn't really know me intimately, I walked over to her, smiled gentle and said "it's Josh". She said, "oh I"m sorry lol, but I need you to..." and went on telling me what she needed.

...The next day, she called me over again; "John!" I look up to see who she was talking to because I hadn't met any Johns who worked there but she was looking directly at me. I hurried over to her and again smiled and said "It's Josh". She smiled and continued to tell me what she needed from me.

...The next day, she called me over again "Jim!" I look up and walk over there, no longer as enthusiastic. Being 18 years old, I couldn't understand why she was having problems remembering my name. She was in her early 40s sharp as a tack. I was walking over to her preparing to gently correct her again, when suddenly one of her co-workers - visibly frustrated - said "JOSHUA! His name is JOSHUA! Why can't you call him by his name!?" She brushed it off smiling saying "oh he knows I was talking to him, don't you?" I managed a smile...but it was at that moment that I realized she no plans to call me by my God-given name...because she absolutely knew I would come when she called.

...The next day she calls me over again; "Jerry!" There were no Jerries on our floor.

I don't move one inch. I don't budge. I don't even look up. I purposely ignore her. "JERRY!!" I continue with my other work. A silence falls over the room as everyone gets quiet. I knew she was calling on me, but what was once innocent ignorance turned into painful disrespect. Mary didn't feel she needed to call me by my name (even though she clearly KNEW my real name), simply because she also KNEW I would come whenever she called on me. But it no longer mattered whether or not she was my boss; it didn't matter how emphatically she yelled a name that was meant for me. What mattered was that she KNEW my God-given name and refused to use it. She didn't even try to honor me; to give me that small token of basic respect that one person will give to even the least familiar of acquaintances. So I ignored her...and everyone else knew exactly what I was doing.

After what seemed like forever, the silence was broken with "Josh can you come here please?"

I calmly rise from my cubicle and walk over to her, no longer as soft with a smile. She says to me quietly with a smile, "you know I was calling you..." I didn't reply I just stared at her. She then told me what she needed from me. From then on she never called me by another name again.

----

All my childhood I knew Christ as "Jesus". Sunday after Sunday for years that was the name I had hear, read, spoke, and prayed to...But one day I decided to study. I decided to get to know the lord better than I did, and in studying I discovered that his God-given name was nowhere near the name Jesus; that even the letter "j" is only about 600 years old, and the "j's" sound is younger than that ("J" used to sound like a "y"). And so after learning his real name, if I continued calling him "Jesus" (to me) it would've been like Mary continuing to call me "Jerry" (or some other name). Sure it would take major effort to recondition my mouth to use his real name instead of "Jesus" but I asked myself, "would I expect any less effort from someone like Mary to give ME that respect? As small of a gesture as it is to call me by my God-given name?", ESPECIALLY when my real name is a closer form of his real name than "Jesus" is?

So for me it was a choice between my humility and my pride. He's not my subordinate who does MY bidding whenever I call. He's my MASTER who *I* serve. And even if he were my subordinate (like I was to Mary), should I honor him any less?

So that's why I honor his original name.

if a Spanish speaker called you by your name Joshua, and it sounded like this: Yo- swa, would you be offended?
the person is actually pronouncing your real name...not mistaking your name.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Oct 17, 2013

Praus said:

[video=youtube;HqEIt-rQqbM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqEIt-rQqbM[/video]

Dangers Of The False Messianic Movement

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