Why does the Law cause contention among professing Christians?
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K
Figured I'd copy and paste since these threads are on the same subject. and I'm lazy.
I almost "liked" your post until you said there 'was' the cross. I'm just technical that way. the cross is just as present now as it was then and with out it ,we have no hope nor a Holy Spirit. We cannot attain with out it, why do so many christians belittle the cross and focus on what they are doing, that is the essence of the law. The Pharisees were so focused on law that you could not comb your hair on the sabbath, because you might comb out a grain of dirt and that would be considered work. Jesus said you strain out a gnat, but cannot see the elephant. That elephant is the cross.
I almost "liked" your post until you said there 'was' the cross. I'm just technical that way. the cross is just as present now as it was then and with out it ,we have no hope nor a Holy Spirit. We cannot attain with out it, why do so many christians belittle the cross and focus on what they are doing, that is the essence of the law. The Pharisees were so focused on law that you could not comb your hair on the sabbath, because you might comb out a grain of dirt and that would be considered work. Jesus said you strain out a gnat, but cannot see the elephant. That elephant is the cross.
A
[h=2]Why does the Law cause contention among professing Christians?[/h]
because many people misuse the Law to rub salt into the wounds of others who are hurting and just looking to be healed by the calm waters flowing from a contrite and humble heart.
because many do not understand the purpose and intent of the Law to lead people to Christ.
Because many do not have Christ leading them and their lives and do not see how by following Jesus and His teaching, they fulfill all of the law and do not need to worry about breaking the letter of the law if their hearts are following His Spirit.
Because many do not read about how God often ordered His prophets to break various "laws" and traditions of men to make a point and be an example to the world and horrify His people into realizing what they were doing.
For example Samson ate honey from the carcass of a dead lion and got drunk and married a Palestine woman. How many laws did he break in his life time?
Yet God used Samson to deliver His people, because our lives are not about Laws but about the winning of souls and pointing people back to GOD.
because many people misuse the Law to rub salt into the wounds of others who are hurting and just looking to be healed by the calm waters flowing from a contrite and humble heart.
because many do not understand the purpose and intent of the Law to lead people to Christ.
Because many do not have Christ leading them and their lives and do not see how by following Jesus and His teaching, they fulfill all of the law and do not need to worry about breaking the letter of the law if their hearts are following His Spirit.
Because many do not read about how God often ordered His prophets to break various "laws" and traditions of men to make a point and be an example to the world and horrify His people into realizing what they were doing.
For example Samson ate honey from the carcass of a dead lion and got drunk and married a Palestine woman. How many laws did he break in his life time?
Yet God used Samson to deliver His people, because our lives are not about Laws but about the winning of souls and pointing people back to GOD.
A
Even some of Jesus disciples did not understand what Jesus was teaching and telling them until after He died on the cross and rose again:
Luke 24
[h=3][/h][SUP]13 [/SUP]Now behold, two of them were traveling that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was seven miles[SUP][d][/SUP] from Jerusalem. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And they talked together of all these things which had happened. [SUP]15 [/SUP]So it was, while they conversed and reasoned, that Jesus Himself drew near and went with them. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And He said to them, “What kind of conversation is this that you have with one another as you walk and are sad?”[SUP][e][/SUP]
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Then the one whose name was Cleopas answered and said to Him, “Are You the only stranger in Jerusalem, and have You not known the things which happened there in these days?”
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And He said to them, “What things?”
So they said to Him, “The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Yes, and certain women of our company, who arrived at the tomb early, astonished us. [SUP]23 [/SUP]When they did not find His body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said He was alive. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And certain of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said; but Him they did not see.”
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! [SUP]26 [/SUP]Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” [SUP]27 [/SUP]And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
[h=3]2 Corinthians 3:14-16[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
[h=3]2 Corinthians 4:2-4[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, [SUP]4 [/SUP]whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
Luke 24
[h=3][/h][SUP]13 [/SUP]Now behold, two of them were traveling that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was seven miles[SUP][d][/SUP] from Jerusalem. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And they talked together of all these things which had happened. [SUP]15 [/SUP]So it was, while they conversed and reasoned, that Jesus Himself drew near and went with them. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And He said to them, “What kind of conversation is this that you have with one another as you walk and are sad?”[SUP][e][/SUP]
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Then the one whose name was Cleopas answered and said to Him, “Are You the only stranger in Jerusalem, and have You not known the things which happened there in these days?”
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And He said to them, “What things?”
So they said to Him, “The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Yes, and certain women of our company, who arrived at the tomb early, astonished us. [SUP]23 [/SUP]When they did not find His body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said He was alive. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And certain of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said; but Him they did not see.”
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! [SUP]26 [/SUP]Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” [SUP]27 [/SUP]And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
[h=3]2 Corinthians 3:14-16[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
[h=3]2 Corinthians 4:2-4[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, [SUP]4 [/SUP]whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
H
What you say is to be expected. Scripture spoke of this.
Isa 8:14,15
He will be as a sanctuary,
But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense
To both the houses of Israel,
As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
And many among them shall stumble;
They shall fall and be broken,
Be snared and taken.
1Pet 2:4-8
Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”
Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,
“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”
and
“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
What did Paul, a physical Jew, say of his position as a physical Jew?
Phil 3:4-9
though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
You fail to understand God's word because there is a veil over your eyes blinding you.
2Cor 3:14
But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
Heb 4:1-11
Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedienceagain He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
Be obedient and believe on Jesus.
Isa 8:14,15
He will be as a sanctuary,
But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense
To both the houses of Israel,
As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
And many among them shall stumble;
They shall fall and be broken,
Be snared and taken.
1Pet 2:4-8
Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”
Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,
“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”
and
“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
What did Paul, a physical Jew, say of his position as a physical Jew?
Phil 3:4-9
though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
You fail to understand God's word because there is a veil over your eyes blinding you.
2Cor 3:14
But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
Heb 4:1-11
Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedienceagain He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
Be obedient and believe on Jesus.
Last edited by a moderator:
M
im a little late in responding to this thread but I think the contention is because some Christians think Jesus came to fulfill the law and others think that Jesus came to do away with the law.
And there is another group that believe Jesus fulfilled the law and we don't have to.
Concerning what you say about the onlookers I believe it is good for people to observe this because there are some here who have sound doctrine and stick to the word of God regardless and some seeds could be planted.
Also argument,debate,discussion is not such a bad thing because something can be learned from the information that is put out.
People show more fruit than they think by what they post and a clear picture is painted as to where people are coming from.
For example there are some who tend to compromise with Gods word by telling people they do not have to obey all the commands and there are others who encourage people to obey Gods commands.
You get to see who is operating in love and who is operating in hate by the way they respond to someone who disagrees with them.
Jesus was engaged in many debates,arguments,discussions with different groups of people out in the open and I think this was a good thing because he showed us who were true followers and who were false.
And there is another group that believe Jesus fulfilled the law and we don't have to.
Concerning what you say about the onlookers I believe it is good for people to observe this because there are some here who have sound doctrine and stick to the word of God regardless and some seeds could be planted.
Also argument,debate,discussion is not such a bad thing because something can be learned from the information that is put out.
People show more fruit than they think by what they post and a clear picture is painted as to where people are coming from.
For example there are some who tend to compromise with Gods word by telling people they do not have to obey all the commands and there are others who encourage people to obey Gods commands.
You get to see who is operating in love and who is operating in hate by the way they respond to someone who disagrees with them.
Jesus was engaged in many debates,arguments,discussions with different groups of people out in the open and I think this was a good thing because he showed us who were true followers and who were false.
I am seeing the same from some local believers who are on your side of the discussion as well. There is a great amount of pride, and a spirit of control/power; their judgement of me and those who believe the same is swift, I've been attacked, and I'm actually in a position of leadership in my church! Another, more senior leader, has had many false accusations made against him, and in my opinion, has been run out of the church. In my circumstance, there has unfortunately been antisemitism as well, which is surprising and really grieves my spirit, which makes it increasingly difficult to do the work that the Lord has placed me there to do. The enthusiasm with which people want to sweep these differences out of the church, without truly discussing and seeking understanding, is appalling. We are not to condemn one another in the way that we worship the Lord, and that is how i truly see it. I worship the same Lord, I'm not seeking to condemn you for not worshiping Him the same way, but I should be allowed to, because it is not against the fundamental principles of our faith.
On CC, I see a lot of people being clumped together into one group of offenders, and I agree that there are some problems with some parts of the Hebraic Roots movement that aren't Scriptural, but that can be said for a large part of the American churches as well (don't get me started). There are deceptions everywhere, so we must be discerning. However, there are many other believers who are not seeking to condemn those who don't agree, but only wish to follow where the Lord is leading them, and see the joy and beauty of the Law of the Lord. The laws of men are the only ones that condemn me now, because I am covered by the blood of the Lamb. The only 'death to the Law' that affects me, is death to the Law's condemnation, praise God!
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes; The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, Yea, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them Your servant is warned,
And in keeping them there is great reward." Psalm 19:7-11
Please, I only wish to seek that great reward in peace.
Marcella
On CC, I see a lot of people being clumped together into one group of offenders, and I agree that there are some problems with some parts of the Hebraic Roots movement that aren't Scriptural, but that can be said for a large part of the American churches as well (don't get me started). There are deceptions everywhere, so we must be discerning. However, there are many other believers who are not seeking to condemn those who don't agree, but only wish to follow where the Lord is leading them, and see the joy and beauty of the Law of the Lord. The laws of men are the only ones that condemn me now, because I am covered by the blood of the Lamb. The only 'death to the Law' that affects me, is death to the Law's condemnation, praise God!
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes; The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, Yea, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them Your servant is warned,
And in keeping them there is great reward." Psalm 19:7-11
Please, I only wish to seek that great reward in peace.
Marcella
Selihah, I believe the answer is in a previous post. If we believe Yeshua, then we will do as He teaches us and demonstrated to us by His Example. By His example we know to do our best to obey all the laws of good morals and behavior while showing mercy in place of the prescribed punishments. If we show mercy, we will obtain mercy. If we do not judge to condemnation, we will not be judged. His Example is plain and wonderful to understand if we hear Him.
E
Yet your book teaches of a different messiah.
You book teaches that if you do not obey ALL the commands written, You are cursed ("cursed is everyone who does not obey ALL the things written) Have you obeyed ALL the things written?
Your book teaches that if you do not obey Gods commands, But go contrary to him, You will suffer great things, The final judgment being over run, conquered by Gentile nations, Your holy city destroyed and in ruins, And will see no peace. Look at the past 2000 years? Do you think it is because God does not love his beloved Israel? (I Don't) Or is it because his beloved Israel is in sin?
jesus di not contradict Paul. He knew the people heart. And tried to show him the way, Tha man claimed to be perfect. jesus showed his he was not perfect (he was a coveter of things,) He tried to show him he has not obeyed the law as demanded by Moses. The guy still did not get it.
Jesus was your messiah. He still is if you will recieve him. Even David looked to jesus when he prophesied about him. "My God My God, why has thou forsaken me"
You book teaches that if you do not obey ALL the commands written, You are cursed ("cursed is everyone who does not obey ALL the things written) Have you obeyed ALL the things written?
Your book teaches that if you do not obey Gods commands, But go contrary to him, You will suffer great things, The final judgment being over run, conquered by Gentile nations, Your holy city destroyed and in ruins, And will see no peace. Look at the past 2000 years? Do you think it is because God does not love his beloved Israel? (I Don't) Or is it because his beloved Israel is in sin?
jesus di not contradict Paul. He knew the people heart. And tried to show him the way, Tha man claimed to be perfect. jesus showed his he was not perfect (he was a coveter of things,) He tried to show him he has not obeyed the law as demanded by Moses. The guy still did not get it.
Jesus was your messiah. He still is if you will recieve him. Even David looked to jesus when he prophesied about him. "My God My God, why has thou forsaken me"
E
I agree there are people from both sides of the debate who can be overly judgmental.
Antisemetism has been in the church since The church of rome produced it in the 300's AD. Unfortunatly, many protestant denominations brought it with them when they left the church.
I myself love the law. It shows me my weeknesses. It shows me the pure love of God. that me, a breaker of the law, could be loved so much, God himself could come to earth to die for me.
My only issue is the churches which try to shove the law down everyones throats. Which does nothing but judge people. and cause them to not want anything to do with God, Instead of showing the love of God.
Jesus used the law in context when he needed to. When he spoke to the religious. But he did not take it to the sinners. he took his love to them. He said, i did not come to judge, I came to save that which was lost.
we love because God loved us. Not because of the law. We work the works of God because God loved us (which is true work) not because of the law. So why is it that people are going around shoving law down everyones throat and not the love of God?
There is a time and place to talk and teach the law and its part in our lives. The time and place is NOT where unbelievers are located. and not where new believers who do not yet grasp its meaning are. As it will do nothing but risk pushing them away with a yoke even Israel could not handle.
I have seen legalism and its dangers personally. (not just legalism for salvation. but legalism of the saved) and that is why I fight it so hard.
However, as I said, I agree, We need to try to come to unity, and true to be more loving. even to those who are against us. God said love our enemy (now that is not in the law)
And others "misuse" grace and accuse those who simply respect and see the value of the law as wanting us all to be "under" the law, totally minus that "contrite and humble heart." Case in point: yesterday's posts on this thread.
This is true.
He prefers mercy. His Word says so. Yet NOWHERE does His Word say we are to ignore the law. It does say we no longer need to abide by the sacrificial law in the flesh because Jesus is our high priest and took away the necessity of PHYSICALLY performing the sacrifices. It is now to be done spiritually: "I exhort you, therefore, brothers, in view of God's mercies, to offer yourselves as a sacrifice, living and set apart for God. This will please him; it is the logical "Temple worship" for you." Romans 12:1 (CJB)
The biggest problem is that these anti-law people can't see beyond the physical and get hateful and rude when someone else can and expresses more truth straight from the Bible. They behave very arrogantly with NO humility. Is that the "contrite and humble heart" you were talking about?[/QUOTE]
Point lost on me here - only Yeshua never sinned and God uses all of us who sin daily. It has nothing to do with thw law.
Ain't it amazin' that the anti-law posters accuse those of us who are not limited by the same view os scripture as they are, accuse us of being:
"1. They are proud
2. They can be argumentnantive
3. they are very judgmental
4. They attack anyone who does not agree with them
5. They get to the point they make false accusations against people who do not agree with them"
Just read the posts from the last 36 hours or so and see for yourself who is calling names and carrying an arrogant attitude.
This is true.
He prefers mercy. His Word says so. Yet NOWHERE does His Word say we are to ignore the law. It does say we no longer need to abide by the sacrificial law in the flesh because Jesus is our high priest and took away the necessity of PHYSICALLY performing the sacrifices. It is now to be done spiritually: "I exhort you, therefore, brothers, in view of God's mercies, to offer yourselves as a sacrifice, living and set apart for God. This will please him; it is the logical "Temple worship" for you." Romans 12:1 (CJB)
The biggest problem is that these anti-law people can't see beyond the physical and get hateful and rude when someone else can and expresses more truth straight from the Bible. They behave very arrogantly with NO humility. Is that the "contrite and humble heart" you were talking about?[/QUOTE]
Point lost on me here - only Yeshua never sinned and God uses all of us who sin daily. It has nothing to do with thw law.
Ain't it amazin' that the anti-law posters accuse those of us who are not limited by the same view os scripture as they are, accuse us of being:
"1. They are proud
2. They can be argumentnantive
3. they are very judgmental
4. They attack anyone who does not agree with them
5. They get to the point they make false accusations against people who do not agree with them"
Just read the posts from the last 36 hours or so and see for yourself who is calling names and carrying an arrogant attitude.
I'm not suggesting that you are doing this intentionally, or even knowingly, but this is the false characterization that keeps being repeated over and over and over by one side of the debate that tries to control the argument by defining what obedience is, and in doing so simply adds fuel to the fire. They imply that love and faith are not FULL obedience to ALL of GOD's commandments that he has ever uttered, but won't come out and say this openly. Instead they characterize those who do advocate obedience to this truth that is witnessed by Christ and the apostles, as wanting to throw away law, as being lawless, not willing to sacrifice all, etc., etc. etc. They are not interested in honest discussion, but merely controlling the debate and adding fuel to the fire with their false characterization. And the fire rages on...
This is a perfect example of false characterization. This is called projection - projecting one's beliefs on to another. It is done to create a false dialectic that lets one feel secure in their beliefs and practices. It implies that those who advocate grace only are lawless and don't value the law. Completely false characterization. And the fire rages on...
wheels on the bus go round and round! i keep seeing people say we live in sin, i even heard a person saying that we sin every day, it wasn't in forums that i heard that. People really need to stop trying to convince others, that we can't live sinless lives. we can live without sin, if we do what Jesus said. Jesus came to show us how we are to live, and He came in the flesh to show us it can be done. Did you sin today? yesturday? last week? well i believe if we can go one day without sinning then why can't we not sin every day? With Christ All things are possible.
true ariel.
the blowback from this is either hypocrites who have to pretend, or the swing to liberalism...ppl can't hold up under the Law Law Law.
worse case scenario you get your perfectionists. cuz there's an inability to reconcile what the Law demands with one's performance.
you know you have trouble when the Gospel isn't following hard on the heels of the Law.
no one should be hearing the Law without the Gospel - including lifelong christians.
the blowback from this is either hypocrites who have to pretend, or the swing to liberalism...ppl can't hold up under the Law Law Law.
worse case scenario you get your perfectionists. cuz there's an inability to reconcile what the Law demands with one's performance.
you know you have trouble when the Gospel isn't following hard on the heels of the Law.
no one should be hearing the Law without the Gospel - including lifelong christians.
From post #317
Better than no peace. You don’t have to listen to what you think I supposedly teach, cause you won’t believe it anyway. You have already predetermined that whatever I say is to be rejected, so why the snide remarks? You are welcom to stay the way you are. I'd try to communicate with you if I thought it would help. Even if this question you ask were legit, I would question your cause. But I don’t.
Melchizedec
Melech = a royal king
Zedec = equity
Completeness of the name means the royal king offering equity
Each number = a letter of the Hebrew pictorial alphabet:
Letters from the Hebrew alphabet=13 –12 -11-10 –18 – 4 -19 the royal king offering equity
The giving of life by chaos and blood,
providing the way through the power to endure what was necessary,
and in turn giving mankind the hope of entering into understanding
by cutting away darkness with a sword.
7 letters – heavenly completeness
the royal king and priest of Salem i.e. greeting with happiness, shalom
peace – shalem = Jerusalem
Hebrews 6:17-20 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Jerusalem=”founded by God”
“The fulfillment of what I promised through Jesus Christ”
Letters from the Hebrew alphabet=10 – 20 – 6 – 21 – 12 – 10 – 13
10 the hand of receiving
20 giving of a divine force
6 by what is nailed
21 influx of the Holy Spirit
12 perfect government
13 the mighty
shalom (21-12-13) =peace, as in friendly greeting
shalem “ =peaceful
Jeru=giving to us Jesus Christ
First: was shalom (happy welcome or greeting)/shalem (meaning peace)
The mighty influx of the Holy Spirit motivating a perfect government
Then: “Jeru” = giving to us what was promised by what is nailed- Jesus Christ
Finally: “Jerusalem” = the fulfillment of what was promised through Jesus Christ
Hebrews 12:22-25 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Psalm 122:1-9 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the LORD.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the LORD.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Because of the house of the LORD our God I will seek thy good.
Ephesians 2:14-17 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
1 Corinthians 9:19-20 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
Better than no peace. You don’t have to listen to what you think I supposedly teach, cause you won’t believe it anyway. You have already predetermined that whatever I say is to be rejected, so why the snide remarks? You are welcom to stay the way you are. I'd try to communicate with you if I thought it would help. Even if this question you ask were legit, I would question your cause. But I don’t.
Melchizedec
Melech = a royal king
Zedec = equity
Completeness of the name means the royal king offering equity
Each number = a letter of the Hebrew pictorial alphabet:
Letters from the Hebrew alphabet=13 –12 -11-10 –18 – 4 -19 the royal king offering equity
The giving of life by chaos and blood,
providing the way through the power to endure what was necessary,
and in turn giving mankind the hope of entering into understanding
by cutting away darkness with a sword.
7 letters – heavenly completeness
the royal king and priest of Salem i.e. greeting with happiness, shalom
peace – shalem = Jerusalem
Hebrews 6:17-20 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Jerusalem=”founded by God”
“The fulfillment of what I promised through Jesus Christ”
Letters from the Hebrew alphabet=10 – 20 – 6 – 21 – 12 – 10 – 13
10 the hand of receiving
20 giving of a divine force
6 by what is nailed
21 influx of the Holy Spirit
12 perfect government
13 the mighty
shalom (21-12-13) =peace, as in friendly greeting
shalem “ =peaceful
Jeru=giving to us Jesus Christ
First: was shalom (happy welcome or greeting)/shalem (meaning peace)
The mighty influx of the Holy Spirit motivating a perfect government
Then: “Jeru” = giving to us what was promised by what is nailed- Jesus Christ
Finally: “Jerusalem” = the fulfillment of what was promised through Jesus Christ
Hebrews 12:22-25 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Psalm 122:1-9 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the LORD.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the LORD.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Because of the house of the LORD our God I will seek thy good.
Ephesians 2:14-17 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
1 Corinthians 9:19-20 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;