The Rapture: And Other Silly Things Christians Get Consumed With

[PlainWord]

Hi Zone,

I have to admit, Daniel's 70th week does appear to be completed and this bothers me. We know Jesus references the Abomination in the Olivet so does that mean the Abomination of Desolation has already occurred also, and if so, does that mean there is no coming Tribulation? That's where I have a big hang up. I can buy into the 70 weeks being completed but not the rest of the prophesy. Daniel goes into future prophesy in Chapter 12 and I don't see those completed.

I wonder if there is an explanation for the 70 weeks having been fulfilled but with somethings still yet future, dual prophesy perhaps?

24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.

25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

What flood? Do you know of a flood in or around AD 70? What covenant has been confirmed? There are other things mentioned in the above that have not been fulfilled:

1. Finish transgressions.
2. End of sins.
3. Reconciliation for iniquity.
4. Everlasting righteousness.
5. Seal up vision and prophesy.
6. Anoint the Most Holy.

I don't see any of the above as being completed. Are we missing something?

When discussing the Tribulation, most see it as a 7 year period, but is it really? Everything I see tells me it is a 3.5 year period and that "those days will be shortened."

Christ ministry lasted 3.5 years. Could there be a gap in the last week, the 70th week? Or is there a break in the below??? Is Titus really the "Prince of the People to Come?" Titus was a Roman general, but it could be said he was a prince also.


26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

Is it possible that the above in black is in the past but that in red is future? Titus died of a fever on 13 September 0081. But what is the "Consummation (to be) poured out on the desolate" in relation to this era? Is it only the death of Titus or does this refer to the Bowls to be poured out on the antichrist/Satan?

 

[konroh]

I agree that Paul doesn't definitively point to a millenium. Saying the "ends of the ages" has come on the Church leaves it open as a possibility, however, and makes sense as to why Paul didn't use the singular, telos. If he really wanted to have the church age be the last age, then why not use the singular? I also see in Rom. 8 that the groaning of creation eagerly waiting its redemption cannot just point to a new earth. Why would earth groan waiting its redemption if that redemption is just its destruction? I see the redemption as Creation enjoying a 1000 year peace, where the lion lays down with the lamb, where swords are plows, where the sower overtakes the reaper in the abundance of harvest, where there is peace, where the King of Creation rules creation. I see Rom 8:16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him]. linked with Rev. 204Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I [saw] the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

and with Rev. 2:26He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; 27AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received [authority] from My Father;

God did indeed speak to Moses directly, but this cannot be taken to mean that all of prophecy is a riddle that cannot be understood. Especially since God's point was that there was no other prophet of God's at the time except Moses. Why would God give prophecy if not to be understood? Why is 28% of the OT prophecy when it was written? What hope could Isaiah, Jeremiah or Ezekiel give if their message couldn't be understood? Daniel indeed read Jeremiah and understood that literally the 70 years of captivity was coming to an end, which led to the wonderful vision of the 70 weeks yet to be fulfilled. It is true that we have to be careful, but so much of Daniel was given as historical proof and interpretation that shows us how the rest of it also has literal fulfillment, absolutely. Literal kingdoms, literal kings.

The literal fulfillment of so much of prophecy literally fulfilled in Christ point to the literal fulfillment of the rest of prophecy. Here are some examples,
Jesus is from the line of David (Ps. 89),
has a betrayer Judas who's cursed (Ps. 109),
is born within 483 years of Artexerxes decree (Dan. 9),
in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2),
is rejected (Is. 53),
sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zech 11),
makes a triumphal entry (zech 9)
given vinegar and gall (ps 69)
buried with the rich (is 53)
would ascend to God's right hand (Ps 68)

In the same way, Jesus' return will literally be a physical return that fulfills God's promises to Abraham, Moses, David, Judah and Israel, not to mention His Church, His bride.

 

[Elin]

Yes, but according to your own hermeneutic, its meaning is what Paul meant,
not what it could mean.

Was Paul saying there is another temporal age after the church?

If so, he forgot to tell us about it, or to even mention it anywhere else in his writings.

Nope. . .Paul, nor any other NT teaching, present a temporal age after the church age, therefore we have
no certain basis for one. Its basis is all in uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles which can be, and are, interpreted by others to mean things entirely different.

So not only is there no NT teaching of such, your own hermeneutic does not allow your interpretation.

I agree that Paul doesn't definitively point to a millenium. Saying the "ends of the ages" has come on the Church leaves it open as a possibility, however, and makes sense as to why Paul didn't use the singular, telos. If he really wanted to have the church age be the last age, then why not use the singular?

Non-responsive.

I also see in Rom. 8 that the groaning of creation eagerly waiting its redemption cannot just point to a new earth.
Why would earth groan waiting its redemption if that redemption is just its destruction?

Human reason is not the plumb line for Scriptural truth.

Suffice it to say, there isn't a better description of "re-newal" than a "new heavens and new earth"
(2Pe 3:13).

You need a better plumb line.
< I suggest belief. >

I see the redemption as Creation enjoying a 1000 year peace, where the lion lays down with the lamb, where swords are plows, where the sower overtakes the reaper in the abundance of harvest, where there is peace, where the King of Creation rules creation.

That is your uncertain private interpretation. That prophetic riddle can be, and is, interpreted by others to mean something entirely different.

I see Rom 8:16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him].

linked with Rev. 204[/Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I [saw] the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

and with Rev. 2:26He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; 27AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received [authority] from My Father;

That is both your uncertain private interpretation of the prophetic riddles, and your personal and uncertain linkage with Ro 8:16, which above riddles can be, and are, interpreted by others to mean something entirely different, and which others do not see as linked to Ro 8:16.

Not to mention, your linkage produces a most paltry understanding of the glory of Christ Jesus; i.e., ruling and reigning with a rod of iron,
a glory which does not fit the Bible's description of our inheritance as what "no eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him." (1Co 2:9).

As Luther said to Erasmus, "Your thoughts of God are too human."

Paltry, indeed. . .

God did indeed speak to Moses directly, but this cannot be taken to mean that all of prophecy is a riddle that cannot be understood.

Right. . .but what can be taken to mean that all of prophecy is a riddle is what God said, "When a prophet of the LORD is among you, I reveal myself to him in visions, I speak to him in dreams (i.e., not clearly). . .With Moses I speak clearly and not in riddles (dark sayings)." (Nu 12:6-8)

God speaks to prophets indirectly (in visions and dreams) and not clearly (in riddles), rather than directly (face-to-face) and clearly (not in riddles). (Nu 12:8-6)

You have no basis for asserting that prophecy must be literal.

Especially since God's point was that there was no other prophet of God's at the time except Moses

Nope.

God's point is what he said: "When a prophet of the LORD is among you."

Why would Godgive prophecy if not to be understood? Why is 28% of the OT prophecy when it was written? What hope could Isaiah, Jeremiah or Ezekiel give if their message couldn't be understood?

Wrong plumb line again. . .human reason instead of the word of God in Nu 12:6-8.

You need a better plumb line.

Daniel indeed read Jeremiah and understood that literally the 70 years of captivity was coming to an end, which led to the wonderful vision of the 70 weeks yet to be fulfilled.

That can be, and is, interpreted by others to mean something entirely different.

It is true that we have to be careful, but so much of Daniel was given as historical proof and interpretation

Nope.

It wasn't historical proof when it was given,

and its interpretation is not uncertain private interpretation, its inerpretation is certain Biblical interpretation.

that shows us how the rest of it also has literal fulfillment, absolutely. Literal kingdoms, literal kings.

The literal fulfillment of so much of prophecy literally fulfilled in Christ point to the literal fulfillment of the rest of prophecy.

Are we reading the same Bible?

What literal kingdoms and kings?

What literal fulfillment in Christ?

Nothing in the prophetic vision was literal.
It was the riddle of a statue, of different metals.

And Daniel's interpretation of the riddle was not literal.

Whatever are you talking about?

In the same way, Jesus' return will literally be a physical return that fulfills God's promises to Abraham, Moses, David, Judah and Israel, not to mention His Church, His bride.

Agreed.

Did anyone say Jesus return would not be literal?

Did anyone say God would not keep his promise to the people of God of eternal life in the eternal city?

 

[konroh]

Prophecy is in visions and dreams, but it's not in riddles. Num. 12 is not making the point that no prophecy can be understood, it's saying that Moses can definitely be understood and Miriam and Aaron should respect him as one who speaks directly to God. The reason I would interpret prophecy literally (in the plain, natural sense of the words and meaning) is because this is how we interpret every other verse of the Bible, literally, in the plain, natural sense of the meaning of the words.

It is very clear that Daniel understood the text of Jeremiah literally that the captivity would last 70 years. Daniel then received his vision of 70 sets of sevens (weeks) being appointed for the Jewish people.
2in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the Lord given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years.

And further down ch. 9:
24“Seventy ‘sevens’[SUP]c[/SUP] are decreed for your people and your holy city


Many times in the NT Christians are taught that we will be heirs with Christ, inheritors, we will reign with Him, we will judge angels, we will judge nations. This can be interpreted to mean that this will take place in the new heaven and new earth but it can also naturally be linked to the plain meaning of Rev 20 where it says the saints will reign with Christ for 1000 years.

We seem to be dealing with 2 different sets of principles, this is just an illustration for discussion, not an accusation. The first colomn represents the understanding of Typology in Scripture, the 2nd column is Allegory

Typology
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]The type and the antitype have a natural correspondence or resemblance[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"] There is no natural correspondence, instead a hidden meaning is sought behind the text[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"] The type has historical reality, the type/antitype relationship depends on the literal meaning[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"] The OT historical reality is ignored or denied, the literal meaning is unimportant[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"] The type is a prefiguring or foreshadowing of the antitype, it is predictive; it looks ahead and points to the antitype[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"] The allegory is a conjuring up of hidden ideas, foreign to the OT text, it looks behind, not ahead[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"] The type is fulfilled (or completed or heightened) by the antitype. The antitype is greater than and superior to the type[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"] The allegory does not fulfill the OT texts[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"] The type is divinely designed by God[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"] The allegory is in the interpreter's imagination, not in the design of God[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"] The type and antitype are designated as such in the NT[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"] The allegory is not designated in Scripture[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

All of Daniel's visions had literal, or natural fulfillment. Looking at a text literally does not preclude figures of speech and symbols, but the symbols have a natural correspondence to a literal meaning. This is seen in the interpretation of Daniel's visions given:

19He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.[SUP]c[/SUP] 20The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

The visions of Daniel were not riddles, each part has a natural correspondence to reality. A two-horned ram is a strong kingdom with 2 kings, Media-Persia, a shaggy goat with one large horn is the young Alexander the Great, who had no more kingdoms to conquer at the age of 33, so speedy was his conquering. His kingdom then went to his four generals, who were less powerful. A natural correspondence between the vision and the interpretation.

I see the redemption as Creation enjoying a 1000 year peace, where the lion lays down with the lamb, where swords are plows, where the sower overtakes the reaper in the abundance of harvest, where there is peace, where the King of Creation rules creation.

There are plenty of OT prophecies that have no reason not to be understood literally. The Jews were looking for a literal Messiah King who would rule them physically, spiritually and nationally. There is no denying that this is the natural interpretation of the OT texts. My point, which I seem to be making ad infinitum, is that we now believe that Jesus will come literally and physically, and we believe this because we take the natural interpretation of the text, the literal interpretation. To me there is no reason to not believe the literal fulfillment of the OT and NT texts.

The book of Rev. is full of symbols just as Daniel is full of symbols. All of Daniel's symbols had literal, physical interpretation and fulfillment, some seem yet to be fulfilled. I believe the book of Rev. is the same way.

 

[Elin]

Prophecy is in visions and dreams, but it's not in riddles (dark sayings).

Gee, I'm sorry you don't agree with God in Nu 12:6-8.

The reason I would interpret prophecy literally (in the plain, natural sense of the words and meaning) is because this is how we interpret every other verse of the Bible, literally, in the plain, natural sense of the meaning of the words.

So, without Daniel's divine interpretation of the statue in Da 2, how would you interpret it?

The visions of Daniel were not riddles, each part has a natural correspondence to reality. A two-horned ram is a strong kingdom with 2 kings, Media-Persia, a shaggy goat with one large horn is

"The reason I would interpret prophecy literally (in the plain, natural sense of the words and meaning) is because this is how we interpret every other verse of the Bible, literally, in the plain, natural sense of the meaning of the words."

Okay, go for it

 

[PlainWord]

Gee, I'm sorry you don't agree with God in Nu 12:6-8.


So, without Daniel's divine interpretation of the statue in Da 2, how would you interpret it?


"The reason I would interpret prophecy literally (in the plain, natural sense of the words and meaning) is because this is how we interpret every other verse of the Bible, literally, in the plain, natural sense of the meaning of the words."

Okay, go for it

The Daniel riddles and the Joseph riddles were obvious riddles, 7 thin cows eating 7 fat cows, etc. Common. Rev 20 is not written like that.

 

[PlainWord]

Konroh,

I see you don't want to touch my 1 Cor 15 posts with a 10 foot pole. Let's face it, if I've proved that 1 Cor 15:50-58 belongs to post millennium - eternal heaven state the rapture theory totally collapses, right???

 

[Kerry]

Read it and pray for yourself and not what some dude says.

 

[Kerry]

Most times the most difficult thing is to study for yourself and block out what some dude said.

 

[konroh]

[TABLE="class: cms_table, width: 365"]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR]
[TD]Event[/TD]
[TD]1 Thes 4[/TD]
[TD]1 Cor 15[/TD]
[TD]Mat 24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Saints coming from heaven[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lord Coming[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Angel(s)[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Trumpet[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dead in Christ Resurrected[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alive Caught up/Gathered[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Meet in clouds in "air"[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Always be with the Lord[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Timing Given[/TD]
[TD]No[/TD]
[TD]No[/TD]
[TD]Yes[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Saints-evidence that the Rapture and Revelation are 2 different events
Angels-only the voice of the archangel here, unclear if this is Christ with the voice of the archangel, or it it's the archangel, no evidence of other angels, shows a difference in the events
Trumpet-trump of God versus last trumpet, for the trump shall sound versus a great trumpet, I'll agree that these seem similar but there seems to be a difference between the announcing and gathering trumpets here and the trumpets of judgment in Rev.
Dead in Christ resurrected-This is what links the first two passages in contradistinction to Matt 24 where no resurrection occurs
Caught up/Gathered-Here again is the distinction, caught up in the clouds in the air versus gathered seemingly at Jerusalem where Jesus feet have split the Mt. of Olives and where He judges the sheep and the goats
Clouds/Air versus on land-Huge disagreement here, big difference, no scholar has ever proposed that these are the same, in fact here is one of the main differences
Always be with the lord-Again a distinction that points to 2 different events
Timing given-Huge evidence for distinction between these events, no timing given for Rapture, incredible amount of signs and timing given for Revelation

So by my reckoning 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor. 15 have 2 1/2 points in common, trumpet, dead in Christ resurrected and 1/2 point caught up versus in a twinkling changed.

1 Thess 4 and Matt 24 have only 2 points of agreement, Lord's coming and trumpet

1 Cor. 15 and Matt 24 only have a trumpet in common, which trumpet you don't think is the same and neither do I.

I don't really have a problem with 1 Cor. 15 referring to the end of the millenium except that the whole chapter is about the resurrection of the body, the natural first seed reaping the spiritual fruit heavenly body. The point that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God has to refer to the heavenly kingdom, not the millenial kingdom in this context. If it did refer to the millenial kingdom, then that kingdom could not be earthly with procreation as the OT prophecies proclaim. Since it is naturally linked by the dead in Christ rising, and with the trumpet sounding, it's linked to the Rapture. I understand it says last trumpet, but this is then softened by the phrase, "for the trumpet shall sound", as if this were surprising or annunciatory.

By the way, we've been over this again and again. As an educated person, don't you feel you already know what my views are on this? One of these times we should be really smart and just argue for the other person's side, even though we disagree. It would help to understand each other better.

 

[PlainWord]

The 70 weeks of Daniel are fulfilled. But Jesus wasn't talking about the 70 weeks of Daniel in the Olivet I don't now believe.

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

The above verse does NOT go with the below verse from Daniel 9:

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

The above doesn't say Abomination of Desolation. It says, "on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate." This had me fooled for years. Jesus was talking about this passage from Daniel 11:

31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

32 Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits.

33 And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering.

34 Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue.

35 And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.

36 "Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.

This agrees with Paul in 2 Thes 2 and is yet future:

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

We know this is referring to the Latter Days and NOT AD 70 from the below passage from Daniel 10, which precedes of course Daniel 11:

14 Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision refers to many days yet to come."

 

[konroh]

But here is one of the key points, look at the similarity of these phrases: (whoever reads, let him understand), from Matt. 24:15 and Know therefore and understand from Dan. 9:25. This is what is called a literary link between the two passages. This is why they are linked together, the phrases seem out of place, but they are literary devices used to clue the reader in to the fact that they are talking about the same thing. But I agree that it's linked to Dan. 11 as well.

 

[PlainWord]

But here is one of the key points, look at the similarity of these phrases: (whoever reads, let him understand), from Matt. 24:15 and Know therefore and understand from Dan. 9:25. This is what is called a literary link between the two passages. This is why they are linked together, the phrases seem out of place, but they are literary devices used to clue the reader in to the fact that they are talking about the same thing. But I agree that it's linked to Dan. 11 as well.

I would normally agree with literally links, I rely heavily on them. But in this case, I think the link is to tell us that the first Abomination is a type of the Second from Chapter 11. They are not the same entity. I have to agree with Zone, the 70 weeks are completed as they referred to Christ. But that does not mean Christ was speaking of Dan 9:27. The Abomination of Chapter 11 is a direct link with the same phrase "Abomination of Desolation."

I did a search for these 3 words and found these four scriptures. (NKJV)

Sort results by: Book of the Bible | Most relevant search result

• [h=4]Daniel 11:31 NKJV[/h] And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.
  Read Daniel 11 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
  
• [h=4]Daniel 12:11 NKJV[/h] And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
  Read Daniel 12 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
  
• [h=4]Matthew 24:15 NKJV[/h] "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
  Read Matthew 24 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
  
• [h=4]Mark 13:14 NKJV[/h] "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
  Read Mark 13 | View in parallel | Compare Translations

 

[Elin]

So, without Daniel's divine interpretation of the statue in Da 2, how would you interpret it?

"The reason I would interpret prophecy literally (in the plain, natural sense of the words and meaning) is because this is how we interpret every other verse of the Bible, literally, in the plain, natural sense of the meaning of the words."

Okay, go for it.

The Daniel riddles and the Joseph riddles were obvious riddles, 7 thin cows eating 7 fat cows, etc. Common.
Rev 20 is not written like that.

Have you read, for example, Rev 9:7-9, 17-19, 12:1-6, 13-17, 13:1-18, 17:1-18?

 

[konroh]

I wouldn't presume to be able to explain all the symbols from Rev. but I do think they will have a natural correspondence to reality and be literally fulfilled. Just like we recognize that the shaggy goat with one great horn is a great description of Alexander the Great and His Greek empire, we will recognize the fulfillments when we see them.

Rev. 9 appears to speak of demonic creatures of great power, whose leader comes from the abyss (hell?). 1/3 of mankind is literally killed.

Rev. 12 definitely shows the mother of Jesus, figuratively the nation of Israel (?), it seems she will be nourished for 1260 literal days.

The beast and false prophet appear to be literal men, one with supreme political power, one with supreme religious power. There appears to be a false worldwide religious system linked with ecomonic prosperity that comes from a 7 kingdom power group, possibly a connection to Rome, which is known as the legendary city on seven hills.

I am humble about interpreting these, dogmatism is impossible and arrogant, but there will be a natural literal fulfillment as there has been with every prophecy God makes.

 

[Elin]

I wouldn't presume to be able to explain all the symbols from Rev.

Rev. 9 appears to speak of demonic creatures of great power, whose leader comes from the abyss (hell?). 1/3 of mankind is literally killed.

Rev. 12 definitely shows the mother of Jesus, figuratively the nation of Israel (?), it seems she will be nourished for 1260 literal days.

The beast and false prophet appear to be literal men, one with supreme political power, one with supreme religious power. There appears to be a false worldwide religious system linked with ecomonic prosperity that comes from a 7 kingdom power group, possibly a connection to Rome, which is known as the legendary city on seven hills.

I am humble about interpreting these, dogmatism is impossible

Yep, all private interpretation is uncertain.

And all these "dogmas" contradicting clear NT teaching are built on uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles.

 

[PlainWord]

Have you read, for example, Rev 9:7-9, 17-19, 12:1-6, 13-17, 13:1-18, 17:1-18?

As a matter of fact I have, about 500 times. Again, Rev 20 is not written like that.

 

[PlainWord]

I wouldn't presume to be able to explain all the symbols from Rev. but I do think they will have a natural correspondence to reality and be literally fulfilled. Just like we recognize that the shaggy goat with one great horn is a great description of Alexander the Great and His Greek empire, we will recognize the fulfillments when we see them.

Rev. 9 appears to speak of demonic creatures of great power, whose leader comes from the abyss (hell?). 1/3 of mankind is literally killed.

Rev. 12 definitely shows the mother of Jesus, figuratively the nation of Israel (?), it seems she will be nourished for 1260 literal days.

The beast and false prophet appear to be literal men, one with supreme political power, one with supreme religious power. There appears to be a false worldwide religious system linked with ecomonic prosperity that comes from a 7 kingdom power group, possibly a connection to Rome, which is known as the legendary city on seven hills.

I am humble about interpreting these, dogmatism is impossible and arrogant, but there will be a natural literal fulfillment as there has been with every prophecy God makes.

You are correct that the Beast and False Prophet are literal men. I have written about this in the past. The G7 controls nearly 2/3 of the world's wealthy (63%). 1/3 and 2/3 are written about extensively in the trumpets and bowls so we need to pay close attention to them.

If these things are happening today, I can see Pope Francis as the False Prophet, or Beast from the Sea. It remains to be seen but there sure are a lot of things about him that are lining up. I am not accusing and I am not going out on any limbs, just making some interesting observations:

1) He is the first pope in 1300 years to not be from Europe having a land link to Rome, thus from across the sea. The number 13 is a symbol of Satan using Biblical Numberics

2) He came into office on 3/13/13.

3) He seems to be espousing Communism or at least socialism in his recent Evangelii Gaudium. see link. Evangelii Gaudium, Apostolic Exhortation of Pope Francis, 2013

4) He is the first pope in 600 years (6 being the number of Man) to replace a pope who stepped down. Pope Benedict claims he had a mystical experience from God telling him to step down. Very Strange. Ex-pope Benedict says God told him to resign during 'mystical experience' | World news | theguardian.com

5) His crest seen below is eerily similar to the description of the locusts of the 5th trumpet and the 200 million demon army of the 6th trumpet.

6. Pope Francis is taking positions more tolerant of Gay Rights, Islam and Judaism then we've ever seen from a pope.

We are told in Luke 21:

11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.

25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;

26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth..

We've seen strange dark spots taking up 1/3 of the sun lately. We have two blood moons coming next year. We have had several close encounters with asteroids lately and just had Comet Ison just go past the sun and apparently break up. The internet is loaded with stories about how the earth will pass through the debris left behind within the next few weeks. If we do, we could be looking at something similar to the first trumpet.

We then have Mt. Etna in Sicily erupting like crazy in recent days. Should Etna explode into the sea we could have the start of the 2nd trumpet.

Again, all of this could mean nothing but those of us who are watching need to be on the alert for world events could be corresponding to Biblical events.

 

[Richie_2uk]

Well Well Well! Another thread about the rapture. beginning to think this is the most important thing that God wants us to learn and the only thing to learn. " NOT ". When are you people going to learn?

Ecclesiastes 8:7 For he does not know what is to be, for who can tell him how it will be?

 

[Fenner]

I was thirteen years old when I first got saved. My mom took me to an Assembly of God church that was playing the Rapture movie A Thief in the Night. We didn’t attend the church but went to watch the movie. The movie quite literally scared the hell out of me. Or into me. I’m not sure which.
In the movie, Christians are taken to heaven in the Rapture and non-Christians are left to deal with the aftermath. Scary, scary things happen to the folks left behind, including decapitation for becoming a Christian. At the end of the movie, the pastor gave an altar call and I practically ran up front to get saved. I wanted no part with guillotines or the Antichrist.
I spent the next several months terrified that I, nonetheless, would be left behind. My mother was a rock-solid Christian. If she walked out of a room without me seeing her leave, I was terrified that the Rapture had taken her and left me behind. I tried to keep tabs on my mom at all times. If she went anywhere, I went with her.
I kept telling myself that even if I got left behind, there was no way I would take the mark of the Beast. I constantly psyched myself up, assuring myself that when they stuck my head in the guillotine, I would never deny Christ. I would let them take my head off. Being a young Christian was, uh, great! Sorta.
Many years have passed and I don't believe in the Rapture anymore. Prior to the 20th Century, Christians never even talked about the Rapture. In the 20th Century, it became HUGE. It's so inconsistent with what scripture actually teaches. And, no, you don't lose your salvation for not believing in the Rapture.
I like to poke fun at some of the crazy things Christians believe. I wrote a chapter called "The Rapture Bogey Man." You can read the book free (it's free at Smashwords.com). It's called: "iDoubt: When Faith Falters." Some people get deeply offended when I mention a free book. Relax. It's free. It costs nobody nothing. Just enjoy it if you want. If not, don't sweat it. I really poke fun at some other silly things Christians believe, like Y2K was the end of the world, etc. Enjoy.

I was reading your post and thinking it was me. I had a very similar experience as a teenager. I also do not believe in the rapture either. My husband does and he likes the Left behind movies. I told him he can't drive when we ride together. Of course I was kidding.