Sticks N Stones....Really, Really, Big Stones

[Misty77]

I agree with most of that but it really is that simple. Draw a line in the sand when someone oversteps their bounds and totally shut them out/cut them off if they don't cut it out after you've put your foot down. There's nothing healthy about letting someone like that have a prominent position in your life.

I do understand this is not easy for people who habitually let people walk all over them but it's all they really need to do. "Easier said than done" for sure because self-respect is something that takes time to develop. If you don't stick up for yourself, who will?

What you need to keep in mind is that before an abuser ever mistreats you, he/she makes them think that there is no way out. You are in an invisible prison, trapped by fear. Or even worse, you don't recognize that you are being abused because you think you deserve it. Any time you start to assert some independence or satisfaction not based on the whim of the abuser, he/she pulls the reins tighter and shreds what little self-worth you have left.

And the abuser doesn't seem evil all time. It first starts out as flattery. The abuser finds your insecurities and meets your needs while poisoning your mind against everyone you ever trusted. If they are really "good" at it, it's so subtle that you have no idea what's happening. Then, you "disappoint" your abuser. There is anger that scares you to death, followed by name-calling, punishments, blame, shame, and humiliation. That "love" is taken away and you find yourself willing to do anything to get it back. You apologize, grovel, beg, and promise the unthinkable, if only they won't leave you. After a lecture of why the abuser's actions were your fault, he/she grants you a frigid, conditional forgiveness.

After some tentative peace, a grand gesture makes you feel indebted to the abuser, and you wonder what you ever did to deserve someone like that. You vow to never screw up again. Until you do. Maybe you said something wrong at a party, forgot their favorite brand of chips at the grocery store, were 5 minutes late getting home, or put their clothes on the "wrong" hangers. It could even have just been something your abuser imagined that you did. Then the cycle of abuse starts all over again, each time making you feel more worthless and more grateful that your abuser still puts up with a pathetic person like you.

Think about it this way. If a stranger walked up to you on the street and hit you, you would call the police. An abuser has to lure you into a place where you see being away from them as being even worse than being with them. At least, that's what life was like in my gilded prison.

 

[Donkeyfish07]

Think about it this way. If a stranger walked up to you on the street and hit you, you would call the police. An abuser has to lure you into a place where you see being away from them as being even worse than being with them. At least, that's what life was like in my gilded prison.

Oh, I totally understand. My older sister was in an extremely abusive relationship for years. She got with the man when she was 16 and ran away from home, it started as verbal abuse....as the years went by it turned to physical abuse. She was so bad at one point she couldn't look people in the eye because she started to believe the crap he was feeding her. After a lot of struggle and hardship, she managed to get away from him. It took her a long time to get the courage to do it and say enough is enough but you have to do it sometime if your in that situation, otherwise you will never get out.

 

[Jullianna]

I'm sure I've heard it all too wisebeardman

From being told my dna should never enter the gene pool to "I don't like your smile" to being told to "eff off" last time I was in a cell group that was at the pastors house.

Then there's the name calling under their breath.

Yet woman think they're better then men. That's the power of sin but thankfully love easily overpowers sin.

I asked very politely for gender biases to be left out of this thread. It would have been polite to honor that request.

 

[Jullianna]

People need to be more responsible with themselves when it comes to verbal abuse. It's something that can only continue if you allow it. I seriously doubt we can ever stop inconsiderate people from ever trying to use words to hurt people, no matter how much awareness is raised over it......but if you don't allow anyone to speak to you that way and just give them the cold shoulder if they don't show some respect you at least preserve your own self-respect in the process. I see it all the time, gender smender, it goes both ways.....both men and women letting their "significant other" talk down to them and belittle them. Make them feel like crap and they pour their heart and soul into making the other person happy when the other party doesn't have a smidgeon of respect for all the effort being made.


Over the years I've met lots of really good kind hearted people that let themselves get caught up in situations like that. I bet you see a lot of that in your line of work Jules.

I have seen a lot of it. I've also experienced it. Never again.

 

[wisebeardman]

With all of my heart I pray the day comes that the loving words of some amazing lady will melt that wall for you. Will pray about the family thing too. Hope you feel like family here.

well when it comes to the wall, words wont cut it. (being honest here) but I take anything anyone says with a grain of salt. with a side of meh whatever.like I said im pretty numb to emotion

as for family. well. its peaceful now but that can always change at any time.. sorta like a cold war.

as for here, I see this place as a forum like the many others I go to. its a place to pass time away.

 

[Donkeyfish07]

I wonder about the abused persons mentality sometimes. It's never really talked about but I think we all understand that for someone to stay in a relationship for any amount of time, they have to feel like they are getting a "good deal".....like the other persons value has to be at least equal to or greater than their own (At least in their mind)......Is this why an abuser attacks self esteem so relentlessly? To lower the other parties self esteem to the point where their value can never match the abusers?

 

[MissCris]

I wonder about the abused persons mentality sometimes. It's never really talked about but I think we all understand that for someone to stay in a relationship for any amount of time, they have to feel like they are getting a "good deal".....like the other persons value has to be at least equal to or greater than their own (At least in their mind)......Is this why an abuser attacks self esteem so relentlessly? To lower the other parties self esteem to the point where their value can never match the abusers?

It does not feel like a "good deal". I can't speak for anyone else, and I would normally not go this much into my personal business, but to help others understand who may be in a similar situation...

Abusers know how to pick their victims. They pick people who are unlikely to fight back, probably already have fairly low self-esteem to begin with. For me, I had just come out of my first, failed marriage, and a whole slew of other crap that had me depressed and kind of really afraid of men. I was a mess, basically, and he seemed like he could "rescue" me. That was my own fault- believing in the fairy-tale lie that a knight in shining armor would ride up on his white horse and save me from myself.

He built me up...soothed my fears...treated me like a queen...and then would get angry with me. I thought I was doing something really wrong, I would apologize profusely, that's just how I've always been. There was never forgiveness, which I guess makes sense, because if the words "it's ok" or "I forgive you" are never spoken, then the subject, the mistake, can be brought up any time he wanted to throw it back in my face.

It turned into a cycle...a sneaky one that I barely noticed. Oh, I knew there were red-flags about the whole thing...his anger, the things he would say, how he blamed me whenever anything went wrong. But, like I said, I was fresh out of a worse situation. And when he was nice, he was amazing.

So I married him.

And I have stayed, though I've also left a handful of times but come back, because over the years, I've become isolated. He has encouraged fights between me and family members and friends. Any family or friends who had helped me to leave him in the past, he has started fights with or bad-mouthed so much that it wasn't worth it to me to try to keep them anymore. And, for a long time, we lived so far away from our families that I was completely alone. So where was I going to go? He controlled the money. I'd have had to steal from him...yes, STEAL from him, within a marriage, to have any money to try to leave with. The times I did leave was because I begged people to help me, family who I'd been cut off from.
I was allowed to work...in fact, it was often expected or demanded of me, before we had kids...but how I was supposed to get to and from a job without a car where we were was my own concern. He took the car for his job, and I was left, often for a week at a time, with no car, no money. And this seemed normal, mind you, because of how he'd torn me down before. He had me right where he wanted me; doing everything for him, not questioning what HE was doing, not asking too much of him, not complaining, but staying put in the cage I was in and waiting for him.

And even now, that's how it usually is. The hurtful words, the angry outbursts over tiny things that may or may not even be my fault, occasional throwing of objects to scare me, guilt trips, insults, comparing me to other women, serious over-reactions to the kids being kids, lots of irritated sighs or huffs if things aren't going exactly how he wants them to, saying things that make me believe that I'm crazy- telling me one thing, then I do that thing, and later he'll say that's not what he told me to do. And telling me I must be nuts, or hard of hearing, or stupid.

It gets to the point, when all of this is going on...that I feel like...what is the point of leaving? I've been beaten down so much that I'd be worthless to anyone else. It has nothing to do with me thinking he's better, or too good for me, or anything like that....it's entirely about me feeling like and often truly believing that I am all the things he has ever said I am- which amounts to "not good enough". Not pretty enough, or why would he compare me to and flirt with other women? Not smart enough, or why would I mess things up so often? Not interesting enough, or else he would talk to me like he does to everyone else.
Just not enough.

And because of that, I've stayed, and I've put ridiculous amounts of effort into this marriage to make him happy, because I had thought, until recently, that he was miserable because *I* was doing things wrong. So I have tried, in every way possible, to do everything right, do everything for him, change how I look to make him like me, change how I talk, how I think, what I like, how I am with the kids...and that...THAT..and it doesn't work, because the problem isn't ME at all- it's him.

But that's what abusers want- they want their victim to feel like I do, feel stuck, feel like they have to do whatever it takes to please them, to make their life easier...be a slave to them.

I don't know if that answers the question at all, but I hope that if there are people reading this who are in a verbally or emotionally abusive relationship, that they see the truth of what I said- the problem is not YOU, it's THEM. And you CAN leave. You can.

 

[Ugly]

I wonder about the abused persons mentality sometimes. It's never really talked about but I think we all understand that for someone to stay in a relationship for any amount of time, they have to feel like they are getting a "good deal".....like the other persons value has to be at least equal to or greater than their own (At least in their mind)......Is this why an abuser attacks self esteem so relentlessly? To lower the other parties self esteem to the point where their value can never match the abusers?

Abuse is all about control. Control freaks often feel they are not in control of their own lives, this makes them fearful, which makes them angry, which makes them abusive and controlling. Also abusers are the best at denying responsibility for their actions. You will never see a person so skilled at this as an abuser.
And for these reasons, confident and strong (notice both confident and strong, not just strong) women can't be easily manipulated or pushed around. So yes, abusers do seek out compliant people. Or people with a history of abuse. They look for the kind hearted people pleasers. The weak, or beat down. Abusers are bullies. They are insecure children who are overly fixated on themselves.
They tear people down to feel in control and better about themselves. They are among the lowest people on the earth. I know i should feel sympathy of them, as they are usually products of their environment. But i find it very difficult to feel even a twinge of sympathy for a person who sets out to mistreat, hurt, wear down, isolate and crush another persons spirit. Especially to that of a person they are responsible for taking care of, being loving and supportive and encouraging.
And, as was stated in previous posts, often times abuse starts out subtle and you don't realize the mistreatment, or the degree of it. Many times women in abusive relationships, especially verbal, are surprised at the realization. They don't view themselves as being in an abusive relationship. Or don't want to view it that way.
Also some occasions it comes on direct and quickly. Usually causing the focus of their abuse to fear doing anything about it.
There are some who do believe they deserve it. A buddy of mine was at a house party and walked in on a guy beating his girlfriend. So my buddy got mad and started fighting the guy. The woman being beat attacked my buddy screaming at him that it was her fault she was being beat, that she deserved it and how wrong my buddy was to attack her boyfriend.

There are so many factors at play in abuse. Both the victim and the abuser. Its never as simple as 'oh he or she treated me X way so i'm just leaving'. The psychology behind both is more complex than that.

 

[Donkeyfish07]

There are so many factors at play in abuse. Both the victim and the abuser. Its never as simple as 'oh he or she treated me X way so i'm just leaving'. The psychology behind both is more complex than that.

I think it's completely dependent on the level of self esteem a person has.

 

[Ugly]

I don't know if that answers the question at all, but I hope that if there are people reading this who are in a verbally or emotionally abusive relationship, that they see the truth of what I said- the problem is not YOU, it's THEM. And you CAN leave. You can.

It takes a lot of guts to admit all of that in front of people. I'm glad you were able to find the strength to come forward and offer your story to others who may need it.

 

[Donkeyfish07]

And because of that, I've stayed, and I've put ridiculous amounts of effort into this marriage to make him happy, because I had thought, until recently, that he was miserable because *I* was doing things wrong. So I have tried, in every way possible, to do everything right, do everything for him, change how I look to make him like me, change how I talk, how I think, what I like, how I am with the kids...and that...THAT..and it doesn't work, because the problem isn't ME at all- it's him.

But that's what abusers want- they want their victim to feel like I do, feel stuck, feel like they have to do whatever it takes to please them, to make their life easier...be a slave to them.

I don't know if that answers the question at all, but I hope that if there are people reading this who are in a verbally or emotionally abusive relationship, that they see the truth of what I said- the problem is not YOU, it's THEM. And you CAN leave. You can.

Thanks for sharing your personal experience with everyone. I'm sorry you've had to go through all of this.The part I emboldened answers my question completely. Though I understand that "Good deal" probably wasn't a great way to word what I was getting at, what I emboldened is a good example of what I meant about perceiving the other persons value as higher than your own......It's natural for this "value assignment" phenomenon to happen I think but abused people really know how to exploit that aspect of human nature.

 

[Ugly]

I think it's completely dependent on the level of self esteem a person has.

Well, i've read up on abuse, both sides. And i've known and even helped counsel a number of abused women. So i'm not talking out of opinion but professionally researched fact and my talks with those who have experienced it first hand. While self esteem is a major factor, it is not the only factor. Be careful making decisions about things when you don't really have facts to support your presumption. Because self esteem comes from many sources. And not all cases are self esteem based. Some people are just naturally compliant and people pleasers. Not from a lack of self esteem, but its just their natural make up. These people are also prime targets for abuse. Because they will often have an unbalanced sense of what it means to make others happy. They can have the self esteem, but still be victims. Having self esteem doesn't prevent you from being abused, it just makes it less likely.

 

[Donkeyfish07]

Well, i've read up on abuse, both sides. And i've known and even helped counsel a number of abused women. So i'm not talking out of opinion but professionally researched fact and my talks with those who have experienced it first hand. While self esteem is a major factor, it is not the only factor. Be careful making decisions about things when you don't really have facts to support your presumption. Because self esteem comes from many sources. And not all cases are self esteem based. Some people are just naturally compliant and people pleasers. Not from a lack of self esteem, but its just their natural make up. These people are also prime targets for abuse. Because they will often have an unbalanced sense of what it means to make others happy. They can have the self esteem, but still be victims. Having self esteem doesn't prevent you from being abused, it just makes it less likely.

I'm not saying it's the only factor.....tons of things can be involved (Kids, Nowhere else to go, etc....). I've never studied that professionally that's why I'm asking questions about it. My logic on it is a person with a high level of self esteem can not be abused long term, unless they are physically held captive against their will. Their self respect is simply too high for this to happen. Are there any cases you are aware of that this has happened? I've seen a lot of people in situations like this and low self esteem has been present in every case I've personally seen.

Perhaps this assumption is wrong but I see no holes in the logic. I'm not saying it's the only factor, I'm just saying it's always a factor. If you can point out why that's not true I'd gladly change my mind about it.

 

[Donkeyfish07]

Oh yea, I made a mistake in the reply to miss Criss.....this

-----It's natural for this "value assignment" phenomenon to happen I think but abused people really know how to exploit that aspect of human nature.-------

should read as "but abusers".....I had a blonde moment, sue me

 

[Ugly]

I'm not saying it's the only factor.....tons of things can be involved (Kids, Nowhere else to go, etc....). I've never studied that professionally that's why I'm asking questions about it. My logic on it is a person with a high level of self esteem can not be abused long term, unless they are physically held captive against their will. Their self respect is simply too high for this to happen. Are there any cases you are aware of that this has happened? I've seen a lot of people in situations like this and low self esteem has been present in every case I've personally seen.

Perhaps this assumption is wrong but I see no holes in the logic. I'm not saying it's the only factor, I'm just saying it's always a factor. If you can point out why that's not true I'd gladly change my mind about it.

Well, keep in mind three things. A) abuse can often be subtle. B) abuse is about tearing a person down.
While, granted, it is Harder to bring a more confident person into an abusive relationship, its not impossible. Some abuse is very direct and undeniable. Usually this is physical. Where the person is scared for their health or even their life. And even a confident person can't deny those feelings.
But for non-physical abuse its often more about, as Cristen said, the treat you good, so you stay, then mistreat you attitude. Abusers know what to say, and how, to keep you around. They know how to play to your insecurities, which even confident people have. They give you just enough hope to hang yourself, so to speak. And it can be done in such a way that you don't know you're being abused. Which is why even people with higher self esteem can be victims. Because all they need to do is be convinced they aren't being abused. Which is not hard to do. And over time their self esteem wears down until you see a person with no self esteem.

And sorry if i got irritated. This is a subject that really affects me deeply. I haven't even personally been a part of it, nor was it an issue in my family. I don't know what it is, but since i was younger i've felt strongly about this topic. And i get jacked up pretty easily about it.

 

[Donkeyfish07]

Well, keep in mind three things. A) abuse can often be subtle. B) abuse is about tearing a person down.
While, granted, it is Harder to bring a more confident person into an abusive relationship, its not impossible. Some abuse is very direct and undeniable. Usually this is physical. Where the person is scared for their health or even their life. And even a confident person can't deny those feelings.
But for non-physical abuse its often more about, as Cristen said, the treat you good, so you stay, then mistreat you attitude. Abusers know what to say, and how, to keep you around. They know how to play to your insecurities, which even confident people have. They give you just enough hope to hang yourself, so to speak. And it can be done in such a way that you don't know you're being abused. Which is why even people with higher self esteem can be victims. Because all they need to do is be convinced they aren't being abused. Which is not hard to do. And over time their self esteem wears down until you see a person with no self esteem.

And sorry if i got irritated. This is a subject that really affects me deeply. I haven't even personally been a part of it, nor was it an issue in my family. I don't know what it is, but since i was younger i've felt strongly about this topic. And i get jacked up pretty easily about it.

No need to apologize brother, it's all good. I think we actually agree but we were just looking at it from different angles. I don't think anyone is completely immune to non-physical abuse, even people with high self esteem. If someone knows how to butter you up real good and get you dependent on the emotions that comes with that sort of thing, and then pulls a bait and switch trying to make you feel like crap over you something you didn't do or something that wasn't even wrong......of course anybody could potentially be tricked like that.

I was just saying, it seems to me that the self-esteem has to be targeted for abuse to actually work......every time. Whether the person being targeted is actually aware of that or not doesn't matter the way I'm looking at it, all that matters is that self-esteem is decreased because it has been successfully attacked by the abuser. That sound about right to you?

 

[Ugly]

Yep. That is the goal. Break the spirit of the person. And that, of course, ties into their self esteem as well.

 

[Misty77]

I have yet to hear an abuser call themselves that. On whatever level, most of them think they are doing the right thing, that it's their "duty" to control the other person. That's why verbiage like, "control your kids," "men are evil," and "put her in her place" needs to be eradicated, especially from Christian speech. It is never our job to control another person; we are only responsible for ourselves. That goes for our children, too. They are gifts from God for us to nurture and to admonish (teach + discipline).

I'm sure I've gotten a somewhat aggressive reputation on cc, but I will not tolerate anyone spreading the idea that some people need to be controlled. To put someone "in their place" is to deny their full personhood, to say that they are not fully human. It is the idea that "all people are equal, but some are more equal than others." I stand up for women a lot here because they are the most frequently attacked on the threads I have seen. But I will defend people of any age, gender, and demographic that are being mistreated. It's not enough for us to reach out to the abused (which is vital!), we have to stop it from happening in the first place.

 

[rainin]

It does not feel like a "good deal". I can't speak for anyone else, and I would normally not go this much into my personal business, but to help others understand who may be in a similar situation...

Abusers know how to pick their victims. They pick people who are unlikely to fight back, probably already have fairly low self-esteem to begin with. For me, I had just come out of my first, failed marriage, and a whole slew of other crap that had me depressed and kind of really afraid of men. I was a mess, basically, and he seemed like he could "rescue" me. That was my own fault- believing in the fairy-tale lie that a knight in shining armor would ride up on his white horse and save me from myself.

He built me up...soothed my fears...treated me like a queen...and then would get angry with me. I thought I was doing something really wrong, I would apologize profusely, that's just how I've always been. There was never forgiveness, which I guess makes sense, because if the words "it's ok" or "I forgive you" are never spoken, then the subject, the mistake, can be brought up any time he wanted to throw it back in my face.

It turned into a cycle...a sneaky one that I barely noticed. Oh, I knew there were red-flags about the whole thing...his anger, the things he would say, how he blamed me whenever anything went wrong. But, like I said, I was fresh out of a worse situation. And when he was nice, he was amazing.

So I married him.

And I have stayed, though I've also left a handful of times but come back, because over the years, I've become isolated. He has encouraged fights between me and family members and friends. Any family or friends who had helped me to leave him in the past, he has started fights with or bad-mouthed so much that it wasn't worth it to me to try to keep them anymore. And, for a long time, we lived so far away from our families that I was completely alone. So where was I going to go? He controlled the money. I'd have had to steal from him...yes, STEAL from him, within a marriage, to have any money to try to leave with. The times I did leave was because I begged people to help me, family who I'd been cut off from.
I was allowed to work...in fact, it was often expected or demanded of me, before we had kids...but how I was supposed to get to and from a job without a car where we were was my own concern. He took the car for his job, and I was left, often for a week at a time, with no car, no money. And this seemed normal, mind you, because of how he'd torn me down before. He had me right where he wanted me; doing everything for him, not questioning what HE was doing, not asking too much of him, not complaining, but staying put in the cage I was in and waiting for him.

And even now, that's how it usually is. The hurtful words, the angry outbursts over tiny things that may or may not even be my fault, occasional throwing of objects to scare me, guilt trips, insults, comparing me to other women, serious over-reactions to the kids being kids, lots of irritated sighs or huffs if things aren't going exactly how he wants them to, saying things that make me believe that I'm crazy- telling me one thing, then I do that thing, and later he'll say that's not what he told me to do. And telling me I must be nuts, or hard of hearing, or stupid.

It gets to the point, when all of this is going on...that I feel like...what is the point of leaving? I've been beaten down so much that I'd be worthless to anyone else. It has nothing to do with me thinking he's better, or too good for me, or anything like that....it's entirely about me feeling like and often truly believing that I am all the things he has ever said I am- which amounts to "not good enough". Not pretty enough, or why would he compare me to and flirt with other women? Not smart enough, or why would I mess things up so often? Not interesting enough, or else he would talk to me like he does to everyone else.
Just not enough.

And because of that, I've stayed, and I've put ridiculous amounts of effort into this marriage to make him happy, because I had thought, until recently, that he was miserable because *I* was doing things wrong. So I have tried, in every way possible, to do everything right, do everything for him, change how I look to make him like me, change how I talk, how I think, what I like, how I am with the kids...and that...THAT..and it doesn't work, because the problem isn't ME at all- it's him.

But that's what abusers want- they want their victim to feel like I do, feel stuck, feel like they have to do whatever it takes to please them, to make their life easier...be a slave to them.

I don't know if that answers the question at all, but I hope that if there are people reading this who are in a verbally or emotionally abusive relationship, that they see the truth of what I said- the problem is not YOU, it's THEM. And you CAN leave. You can.

Reading this was like reading my own life story. It's why I stayed for so long and it's also why I finally left. There was nothing wrong with my self esteem when the relationship began but by the time it was over I had none left at all. I hope that some one reads this that really needs to hear it....you did a great job describing what it's like to live with an abusive person.

 

[Jullianna]

Cristen, thank you for sharing this. It must have been very difficult for you. Praying for you and your family, and that God will surely use what you have said to help others. That's what this thread is all about. Healing can't happen until recognition happens.

You are an amazing woman. I wish you could see yourself through our eyes.