There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

[tucksma]

I am pretty sure it isn't you, because you are a product of your teachers; so WHO EXACTLY IS THE ONE MAKING UP THESE LIES ABOUT WHAT WE TEACH AND BELIEVE?

We do not believe the flesh part of JESUS is the part of JESUS that is GOD. Jesus is in every way also HUMAN just like us, that is HE, like us, has a BODY, a SOUL, and a SPIRIT.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely. And may your spirit, soul, and body be kept sound and blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 4:24 (NIV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."


Colossians 2:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

John 14:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

NOW GUESS WHICH PART OF JESUS WE BELIEVE PURELY IS GOD?

Now the Difference between our human spirit and HIS SPIRIT, is our spirit was CREATED by HIM.
AND THE SPIRIT OF JESUS IS GOD HIMSELF. HE created that body in Mary's womb so that part of HIMSELF, could enter it, and become a man, thereby being able experience DEATH in the fleshly part of HIMSELF, thereby becoming the ULTIMATE FORM OF LOVE, as HE HIMSELF DEFINED IT.

John 15:13 (ASV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

GOD HAD TO BECOME A MAN AND DIE A SUBSTITUTIONARY DEATH FOR US, OR HIS LOVE IS LESS THAN WHAT A MAN CAN DO.

THEREFORE JESUS IS BOTH TRULY MAN AND TRULY GOD.

See how different your view of what you THINK WE BELIEVE is, than what is the REALITY of what we actually do Believe?

You have studied made up lies, designed to discredit our beliefs; AND you know who the father of all lies is.

So first off, good bible translation flipping so you can get just the right wording. Next time stick to older translations that actually are close to the original text please and you should stick to one or two translations, constant switching makes it clear that you are just trying to find words that prove a point your point, not trying to find truth.


Also some problem with your argument is that your 1 Thess verse says nothing about a trinity. John 4:24 say God not Jesus, this doesn't prove they are the same at all and it is circular reasoning to say it does. You can't use what you are proving, to prove what you are proving.

[h=3]Colossians 2:9[/h]King James Version (KJV)

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
The Godhead doesnt mean the trinity, it could be referring to God's will. There isn't 100% proof the trinity does exist. We must look at the whole of scripture to find truth, and the whole of it shows the trinity's falehood.

For John 14:9 the reason if we see Jesus we see God is because Jesus perfectly manifested God as in had the same will entirely but in fact was not god. Like i said earlier manifestation is not the same being. By your definition that doesn't make sense either because you just said Jesus's flesh wasn't God but in fact they saw flesh not spirit. SO you just contradicted yourself.

for John 15:13 Great love hath no MAN that this. Jesus was a MAN God clearly was and is not. Jesus loves us more than we could love anything ever. God does too but in a different way. God loves us as father and creator, Jesus loves us as High priest and one day king. Different relationships with us, but both love us more than we could ever fathom. Andddd actually I know what the trinity is quite well, I used to believe it until the truth was revealed to me in just how wrong the trinity is.

One last thing I'd like to point out is how GIANT of a loop hole does the trinity sound like? Jesus is God and God is Jesus, but sometimes Jesus is not God and sometimes God is not Jesus. Like its a giant loop hole. God doesn't make loop holes, Men do.

 

[VCO]

So first off, good bible translation flipping so you can get just the right wording. Next time stick to older translations that actually are close to the original text please and you should stick to one or two translations, constant switching makes it clear that you are just trying to find words that prove a point your point, not trying to find truth.


Also some problem with your argument is that your 1 Thess verse says nothing about a trinity. John 4:24 say God not Jesus, this doesn't prove they are the same at all and it is circular reasoning to say it does. You can't use what you are proving, to prove what you are proving.

Colossians 2:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
The Godhead doesnt mean the trinity, it could be referring to God's will. There isn't 100% proof the trinity does exist. We must look at the whole of scripture to find truth, and the whole of it shows the trinity's falehood.

For John 14:9 the reason if we see Jesus we see God is because Jesus perfectly manifested God as in had the same will entirely but in fact was not god. Like i said earlier manifestation is not the same being. By your definition that doesn't make sense either because you just said Jesus's flesh wasn't God but in fact they saw flesh not spirit. SO you just contradicted yourself.

for John 15:13 Great love hath no MAN that this. Jesus was a MAN God clearly was and is not. Jesus loves us more than we could love anything ever. God does too but in a different way. God loves us as father and creator, Jesus loves us as High priest and one day king. Different relationships with us, but both love us more than we could ever fathom. Andddd actually I know what the trinity is quite well, I used to believe it until the truth was revealed to me in just how wrong the trinity is.

One last thing I'd like to point out is how GIANT of a loop hole does the trinity sound like? Jesus is God and God is Jesus, but sometimes Jesus is not God and sometimes God is not Jesus. Like its a giant loop hole. God doesn't make loop holes, Men do.

t t t
I don't do Bible Translation Flipping as you call it, I just don't have a problem with any one of the 9 Bible Translations that I use and have open on my Bible software, and frequently just pick the one my eyes happen to fall on first in the search box, because ALL 9 TRANSLATIONS pop up when I do a search.

Have you ever actually read the History of the KJV Bible: History of the King James Version

I think you will find you are holding the KJV WAY HIGHER ON A PEDESTAL than you really should. FOR EXAMPLE:
They used both older English Translations and original language copies of copies of original manuscripts, BECAUSE original manuscripts have NEVER BEEN FOUND; YET you erroneously say "older translations that actually are close to the original text". I REPEAT the original texts have never been found, and newer Translations incorporated some even OLDER copies of original language manuscripts, than were available when the KJV was translated. SO with your own logic that makes the KJV obsolete.

. . . .

I do not have the original ten dollar bill but I will take all the copies you will give me. I have never seen the original constitution of the United States but thank God I have all the benefits of it. So we do not have the original copy the apostles wrote but we have around 5,000 copies of it and every word of God has been preserved in them. We do not have the original manuscripts but we do have the original words. We do not need the original copy, the first copy. If we had it some people would make an idol of it, I’m sure. By the way, no one has the original copy (the first manuscript) of the 1611 KJV, though many copies of the first printing exist.

. . . .

THEY BELIEVED TRANSLATORS WERE NOT INSPIRED ​

On page 4 the KJV translators said the Septuagint translators were interpreters. (See Appendix A, quote 2) They were not prophets. They did many things as learned men but yet as men they stumbled and fell. So the King James translators believed that translation was a purely human work. They made mistakes.

. . . .

So the King James translators did not believe in condemning other translations. We dare not condemn any translation, they say, unlike many people today.

The Wycliff English Bible came out in 1382, the Tyndale Bible in 1525, the Coverdale in 1535, the Rogers Bible in 1537, the Great Bible in 1539, the Geneva in 1560 and the Bishops in 1568. So when the King James Bible came out in 1611 there were many English translations just as there are today. But the King James translators did not condemn any. They did not consider other versions to be a curse but said "they had been raised up by God for the furnishing of His church." They did not believe in pointing out errors and belittling other versions of the Bible. This applied to English Translations and "those beyond the sea." They would be totally against attacking other translations like many people are doing today.

THEY BELIEVED ALL TRANSLATIONS WERE THE WORD OF GOD

On page 7, the King James translators say, "Nay, we affirm and avow that the meanest translation of the Bible in English is the word of God." (See Appendix A, quote 4) When they say "meanest" they mean the poorest, the worst. So they believed that every translation was the word of God, no matter how many mistakes it had. This is the exact opposite of those who believe the King James is the only Bible for the English speaking people. Those who revere the King James translators so much, believe just the opposite of what the translators themselves believed.. . . . http://www.kjvonly.org/robert/joyner_were_the_kjv.htm

​

My look how far you have drifted from the position that the KJV Translators themselves took.​

 

[wordhelpsme]

Nowhere, nowhere in the Bible does it say that we have to believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one to be saved.

Nowhere does it say we have to believe in the Trinity idea to be saved.

What it does say is that we have to put faith in God and in his son to be saved.

 

[tucksma]

Nowhere, nowhere in the Bible does it say that we have to believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one to be saved.

Nowhere does it say we have to believe in the Trinity idea to be saved.

What it does say is that we have to put faith in God and in his son to be saved.

I agree 100%.

And to VCO. You definetly did some bible flipping there, but for the most part the versions you used are decent ones. I am more so referring to older meaning like translations that don't paraphrase (like the messege bible) or many bibles like that that change the wording so much that you miss out on a lot of scripture. From what I have seen reading my concordance mixed with scripture the kjv is the best, it's not perfect by any means, but I do say it is the best. It is the only one I use because I constancy is important in proving a point in my opinion. I was not trying to say the kjv is perfect, but I do think it is a better translation as a whole. There are some parts that are way off though so like I said it isn't perfect.

 

[Gjolll]

"THEREFORE JESUS IS BOTH TRULY MAN AND TRULY GOD."

This statement is a contradiction in terms. It's like saying "black is white and while is black". We know the kinds of people who go in for this kind of thing: lawyers, pharisees, gnostics. The Pharisees were strongly rebuked by Jesus for being duplicitous over the law. Trinitarianism is duplicit in pretending 3 persons, each God in their own right, make one God.

For Jesus to proclaim he was God would have been a clear violation of Deut 6;4. For if God is in heaven, then how could he be also on earth? And Jesus called God his Father, explicitly denying that he himself was God.

The starting point in any argument about God, is not the trinity, but the unity of God.

Jews understand it, Muslims understand it, but Trinitarians can't seem to grasp it. That's because Calvin approved the trinity. And if Calvin approved it. Yet who is Calvin? Augustine Mk II. And who was Augustine? A ex-Manichean with some very dubious morals attached to him.

 

[buckets]

Nowhere, nowhere in the Bible does it say that we have to believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one to be saved.

Nowhere does it say we have to believe in the Trinity idea to be saved.

What it does say is that we have to put faith in God and in his son to be saved.

We do have to accept Christ to be saved he said so

He also said he was God

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

 

[VCO]

Nowhere, nowhere in the Bible does it say that we have to believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one to be saved.

Nowhere does it say we have to believe in the Trinity idea to be saved.

What it does say is that we have to put faith in God and in his son to be saved.

Isaiah 43:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

1 John 2:22-24 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Who is the liar, if not the one who denies that Jesus is the Messiah? This one is the antichrist: the one who denies the Father and the Son.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] No one who denies the Son can have the Father; he who confesses the Son has the Father as well.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] What you have heard from the beginning must remain in you. If what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father.

 

[VCO]

"THEREFORE JESUS IS BOTH TRULY MAN AND TRULY GOD."

This statement is a contradiction in terms. It's like saying "black is white and while is black". We know the kinds of people who go in for this kind of thing: lawyers, pharisees, gnostics. The Pharisees were strongly rebuked by Jesus for being duplicitous over the law. Trinitarianism is duplicit in pretending 3 persons, each God in their own right, make one God.

For Jesus to proclaim he was God would have been a clear violation of Deut 6;4. For if God is in heaven, then how could he be also on earth? And Jesus called God his Father, explicitly denying that he himself was God.

The starting point in any argument about God, is not the trinity, but the unity of God.

Jews understand it, Muslims understand it, but Trinitarians can't seem to grasp it. That's because Calvin approved the trinity. And if Calvin approved it. Yet who is Calvin? Augustine Mk II. And who was Augustine? A ex-Manichean with some very dubious morals attached to him.

NO, IT IS ABSOLUTE TRUTH, taught to us by the HOLY SPIRIT.

1 Corinthians 2:13-14 (NIV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Simona25]

Genesis 1,26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

Genesis 18, 1-2: And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre; and He sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And when he lift up his eyes and look, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground

Isaiah 6,3: And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of His glory.

Revelation 4,8: And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him: and they were full of eyes within, and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

John 3,16: For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 1, 18: No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him.

John 15, 26: But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me.

Matthew 3, 16-17: And Jesus, when He was baptised, went up straightway out of the water: and the heavens were opened unto Him and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: and lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 28,19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Crazylove]

No one can b a 100% on this topic... Some scriptures prove, some disprove, others r questionable. Why does it really mattr what doctrine one believes anyway? As long as they believe and done what th Bible says about salvation th rest is just wait until we c Jesus ourself... In th long run we all believe th same thing about th Lord. Also, if u want to disprove a doctrine don't use one that doesn't, way bettr ones in scripture. Just saying :/

 

[cfultz3]

No one can b a 100% on this topic... Some scriptures prove, some disprove, others r questionable. Why does it really mattr what doctrine one believes anyway? As long as they believe and done what th Bible says about salvation th rest is just wait until we c Jesus ourself... In th long run we all believe th same thing about th Lord. Also, if u want to disprove a doctrine don't use one that doesn't, way bettr ones in scripture. Just saying :/

Why it is important to know who Jesus is:

1) a Prophet = Muslims.
2) a Great Teacher = Jews.
3) The Son of God = Christians.

If one believes Him to be but a Prophet or a Teacher, then:

1) They say that God is a lair.
2) They have no Messiah.

If one believes Him to be the Son of God, then:

1) They will place themselves under His Covenant. THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER.
2) They will follow Him.

A study of "The Messager (Angel) of the Lord" found in the Old Testament lets us know just Who became this person we know as the Son in the New Testament. This "Who" can be sinned against, He makes covenants, He brings destruction, He is the One who led the Hebrews through the wilderness. He is the Fulfiller of the Father's will.

 

[mpaper345]

I read through the Bible and I do not see a trinity.

The understanding I get is there is one God who is a Holy Spirit.Father is a title for God the Holy Spirit.The Son is the man Christ Jesus.

I understand Father,Son,and Holy Ghost not to b e 3 persons of a trinity but the 3 relationships God has with His people designated by titles.

Father-parent of the saints.

Son-the visible relationship to the saints.

Holy Ghost-the invisible relationship to the saints.

The Old Testament says the the Son shall be called the everlasting Father and Jesus told Phillip if he had seen Jesus he had seen the Father.

Jesus came in the Father's name and the Son inherited the name from the Father.The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

The Bible says that Jesus created all things.Jesus came in flesh.Jesus dwells in the saints.

 

[tucksma]

Isaiah 43:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

1 John 2:22-24 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Who is the liar, if not the one who denies that Jesus is the Messiah? This one is the antichrist: the one who denies the Father and the Son.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] No one who denies the Son can have the Father; he who confesses the Son has the Father as well.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] What you have heard from the beginning must remain in you. If what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father.

God and Jesus can both be separate beings and both be saviors. God sent Jesus, and Jesus did the will of God which was to save us. They both saved us. What you are stating doesn't prove anything.

To VCO:
Nothing you said just now proves it.

To buckets:
Anyone can take a verse out of context and prove something. Keep reading John and he explains over and over that he doesn't mean Jesus is literally God.

To Simona25:
Most of your verses focus on the fact that the holy spirit, God, and Jesus are all mentioned together. The bible teaches all three are real, nothing you mentioned stated they are the same in fact your verses clearly show they are regarded as separate things.

To cfultz3
I agree on most of what you just said. I do not think Jesus preexisted but I do think that he fulfilled God's will and it is very important to know who he is.

 

[danschance]

God and Jesus can both be separate beings and both be saviors. God sent Jesus, and Jesus did the will of God which was to save us. They both saved us. What you are stating doesn't prove anything.

So you have two Gods?

 

[tucksma]

So you have two Gods?

Nope, the fact that Jesus saved us was because he had the same flesh and blood as us but never sinned! He was a spotless sacrifice. SO in he saved us in action. God saved us in will. It was God's will for Jesus to do these things. God is God, Jesus is his Son and did his will perfectly. They both are components to our salvation though. God is the mastermind behind it all and uses Jesus to do it. Nothing I said hints at allllll that Jesus is a separate God.

 

[Simona25]

To Simona25:
Most of your verses focus on the fact that the holy spirit, God, and Jesus are all mentioned together. The bible teaches all three are real, nothing you mentioned stated they are the same in fact your verses clearly show they are regarded as separate things.

To cfultz3
I agree on most of what you just said. I do not think Jesus preexisted but I do think that he fulfilled God's will and it is very important to know who he is.

God the Father (who is eternally father), Jesus Christ (who is begotten by the father, but is also eternal) and the Holy Spirit (who proceeds from the father, and it`s also eternal) are three in one: three hypostatis in one being. I have provided verses from the Bible that reveals God in these three hypostatis. God did not become a father once Jesus Christ was born, but He is eternally Father; as well as Jesus Christ does not have a beginning: He is the Word that became flesh.

 

[Simona25]

Nope, the fact that Jesus saved us was because he had the same flesh and blood as us but never sinned! He was a spotless sacrifice. SO in he saved us in action. God saved us in will. It was God's will for Jesus to do these things. God is God, Jesus is his Son and did his will perfectly. They both are components to our salvation though. God is the mastermind behind it all and uses Jesus to do it. Nothing I said hints at allllll that Jesus is a separate God.

It`s interesting that you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but you do not agree that He shares the same essence as God.

 

[tucksma]

God the Father (who is eternally father), Jesus Christ (who is begotten by the father, but is also eternal) and the Holy Spirit (who proceeds from the father, and it`s also eternal) are three in one: three hypostatis in one being. I have provided verses from the Bible that reveals God in these three hypostatis. God did not become a father once Jesus Christ was born, but He is eternally Father; as well as Jesus Christ does not have a beginning: He is the Word that became flesh.

None of your verses state that though, they show that Christ came from God, which God gave him sooo yes he did come from God and many verses that show that the Holy spirit, God, and Jesus are all VERY important but none of which state they are the same. It'd be different if it said "god, son, and holy spirit the three being one" but it never says that. Also if John just said "Tge father and I are one" then yes it'd be of entity but he doesn't stop there, he continues explaining and shows that he doesn't mean of entity but of mind and will.

 

[Simona25]

None of your verses state that though, they show that Christ came from God, which God gave him sooo yes he did come from God and many verses that show that the Holy spirit, God, and Jesus are all VERY important but none of which state they are the same. It'd be different if it said "god, son, and holy spirit the three being one" but it never says that. Also if John just said "Tge father and I are one" then yes it'd be of entity but he doesn't stop there, he continues explaining and shows that he doesn't mean of entity but of mind and will.

Because Jesus Christ and God the Father are one not only in essence, but also in will and mind (how could it be otherwisse since they are one deity?)

 

[tucksma]

show me a verse saying they are one deity.