My Christian Agnosticism

[Witness45]

I'm a perfectionist who has never once reached perfection in anything. Far from it actually, failure is my strong suit. Though I have successfully failed at many of life's natural endeavors (such as school, work, relationships, etc.), I have long since tried ever so desperately to attain the answers to life's biggest questions. Where did we come from? Who are we? Do we have Free Will? What will become of us after we die? What is the very nature of reality? Essentially; Why?...

In my loneliness I pondered these and many more, and in my efforts to seek the truth I delved myself into the world of Apologetics. Intensely studying the works of great minds such as: Dr. William Lane Craig, Dr. Frank Turek, Dr. Norman Geisler, etc. I tried so desperately to answer every possible question, to fill every gap of knowledge. But no matter how I tried, I could never answer every question. I could never fully understand the world around me. My frustration built up until I finally collapsed...

I've spent nearly six months doing everything I can to avoid these questions altogether. I've spent nearly six months avoiding God. Doing as I please.

What I didn't realize was that I wasn't just seeking to answer my questions, I was attempting to eliminate my faith. I can never answer every question for to do so would be to know everything which is reserved for one being. Faith by definition is that which fills a gap in knowledge, and I was attempting to eliminate said gaps.

In essence I just don't know. I don't know what every verse in the bible means, nor the correct interpretation, I don't know every detail of what life will be like after I die, I don't know every aspect of God's personality, etc. There's no real way for me to know...

I just simply believe God exists, that Jesus is God's son, and that we should try to practice the Golden rule even though we will fail...

 

[maxwel]

Witness45,

It sounds like you're beginning to refocus on God, that's a very good and very important thing.

You might find that a different definition of "faith" will give you a vastly different paradigm.

Faith is NOT "by definition, that which fills a gap in knowledge."

That might be the usual definition given in atheism, but why should a theist use definitions about theism which are created by atheists?
It's absurd.
It's like asking a farmer, who's never left the farm, to discuss flying a fighter jet.
It's just silly.

Biblically, faith just means to BELIEVE WHAT GOD SAYS.
That's all.
It doesn't mean to "fill a gap in knowledge."
That implies that God is some unknowable entity, that exists only in dark gaps, where nothing can be known.
That isn't the God of scripture.

God is NOT unknowable.

God is clearly seen and understood through creation.
God is clearly seen and understood through conscience.
God is clearly seen and understood through the existence of perfect, yet intangible absolutes....
like the existence of logic and reason.

God is not a mysterious, unknowable entity that exists only in the dark gaps of knowledge, where nothing can be known.

God is quite present, and understandable, through all of creation.

The only reason people DON'T see God, and DON'T believe in God....
is because they CHOOSE NOT TO.

God is not far away, and he's not hard to find, and he's not unknowable.

Faith is NOT "that which fills a gap in knowledge."

Faith is to look at creation, which clearly and readily shows the creator...
and simply BELIEVE WHAT WE CAN EASILY SEE.

 

[doseofreality]

I'm a perfectionist who has never once reached perfection in anything. Far from it actually, failure is my strong suit. Though I have successfully failed at many of life's natural endeavors (such as school, work, relationships, etc.), I have long since tried ever so desperately to attain the answers to life's biggest questions. Where did we come from? Who are we? Do we have Free Will? What will become of us after we die? What is the very nature of reality? Essentially; Why?...

In my loneliness I pondered these and many more, and in my efforts to seek the truth I delved myself into the world of Apologetics. Intensely studying the works of great minds such as: Dr. William Lane Craig, Dr. Frank Turek, Dr. Norman Geisler, etc. I tried so desperately to answer every possible question, to fill every gap of knowledge. But no matter how I tried, I could never answer every question. I could never fully understand the world around me. My frustration built up until I finally collapsed...

I've spent nearly six months doing everything I can to avoid these questions altogether. I've spent nearly six months avoiding God. Doing as I please.

What I didn't realize was that I wasn't just seeking to answer my questions, I was attempting to eliminate my faith. I can never answer every question for to do so would be to know everything which is reserved for one being. Faith by definition is that which fills a gap in knowledge, and I was attempting to eliminate said gaps.

In essence I just don't know. I don't know what every verse in the bible means, nor the correct interpretation, I don't know every detail of what life will be like after I die, I don't know every aspect of God's personality, etc. There's no real way for me to know...

I just simply believe God exists, that Jesus is God's son, and that we should try to practice the Golden rule even though we will fail...

Nice to hear someone admit their agnosticism. You may believe but you certainly don't know.

The next question is, Why do you choose to believe? What are your reasons?

 

[maxwel]

Witness45,

Please be aware that doseofreality is not a believer trying to help you.
He's an atheist apologist doing his best to confuse and dissuade people who are young in the faith.

 

[doseofreality]

Biblically, faith just means to BELIEVE WHAT GOD SAYS.
That's all.
It doesn't mean to "fill a gap in knowledge."
That implies that God is some unknowable entity, that exists only in dark gaps, where nothing can be known.
That isn't the God of scripture.

God is NOT unknowable.

God is clearly seen and understood through creation.
God is clearly seen and understood through conscience.
God is clearly seen and understood through the existence of perfect, yet intangible absolutes....
like the existence of logic and reason.

God is not a mysterious, unknowable entity that exists only in the dark gaps of knowledge, where nothing can be known.

God is quite present, and understandable, through all of creation.

The only reason people DON'T see God, and DON'T believe in God....
is because they CHOOSE NOT TO.

"faith" is believing what is written in the Bible and how it is interpreted...that is what you mean by "what God says".

The God you describe that is certainly knowable, in my opinion, is the idea of "God". The maker of life, conscience, and logic. We assume that "something" created these things and we give that "something" the name God.

The debate is whether God is a physical reality or not, in which we are all agnostics on this point.

So comes down to what reasons you have for thinking God actually does exist.

 

[Searching4Truth]

You know, it is okay not to know all the answers in such a short amount of time.

 

[p_rehbein]

I'm a perfectionist who has never once reached perfection in anything. Far from it actually, failure is my strong suit. Though I have successfully failed at many of life's natural endeavors (such as school, work, relationships, etc.), I have long since tried ever so desperately to attain the answers to life's biggest questions. Where did we come from? Who are we? Do we have Free Will? What will become of us after we die? What is the very nature of reality? Essentially; Why?...

In my loneliness I pondered these and many more, and in my efforts to seek the truth I delved myself into the world of Apologetics. Intensely studying the works of great minds such as: Dr. William Lane Craig, Dr. Frank Turek, Dr. Norman Geisler, etc. I tried so desperately to answer every possible question, to fill every gap of knowledge. But no matter how I tried, I could never answer every question. I could never fully understand the world around me. My frustration built up until I finally collapsed...

I've spent nearly six months doing everything I can to avoid these questions altogether. I've spent nearly six months avoiding God. Doing as I please.

What I didn't realize was that I wasn't just seeking to answer my questions, I was attempting to eliminate my faith. I can never answer every question for to do so would be to know everything which is reserved for one being. Faith by definition is that which fills a gap in knowledge, and I was attempting to eliminate said gaps.

In essence I just don't know. I don't know what every verse in the bible means, nor the correct interpretation, I don't know every detail of what life will be like after I die, I don't know every aspect of God's personality, etc. There's no real way for me to know...

I just simply believe God exists, that Jesus is God's son, and that we should try to practice the Golden rule even though we will fail...

Just a thought here, but it seems to me that you are seeking an understanding of God through the knowledge/wisdom of men. That is nothing more than an exercise in futility. You will never receive an understanding of God through mans knowledge or wisdom......for they are not but foolishness in the eyes of God.

Every question you posed is discussed in Scripture. Rather than seek understanding from man, seek understanding from Scripture. What you state you believe is lacking IF you expect to have a personal relationship with God.

Point: An agnostic is not a Christian.........you are gonna have to get off the fence..........IF you expect to receive any understanding.........just saying.

 

[p_rehbein]

"faith" is believing what is written in the Bible and how it is interpreted...that is what you mean by "what God says".

The God you describe that is certainly knowable, in my opinion, is the idea of "God". The maker of life, conscience, and logic. We assume that "something" created these things and we give that "something" the name God.

The debate is whether God is a physical reality or not, in which we are all agnostics on this point.

So comes down to what reasons you have for thinking God actually does exist.

Seriously?

The debate (for Christians) has never been "whether God is a PHYSICAL reality or not. Goodness. dosedoe, if you are going to practice misinformation and deception, at least READ Scripture eh?

What it comes down to is................I believe...........you don't..........your loss.............not mine.

 

[majorjones]

Not one single atheist or agnostic will be in heaven. Both will go to hell. The "atheist" is too ignorant and self involved to see the truth that is right in front of him. An agnostic at least is open to searching for God. Thier problem is, they often end up "inventing" a (g)od that they are comfortable with, but doesn't exist except in thier vane imaginings. They often "blend" true biblical doctrine with secular ideas.

Believing Jesus is the Son of God is good, but it's not the same thing as accepting Jesus as your personal Savior. The former is but a step in the right direction. The latter is "absolutely" required for salvation and eternal life in heaven. I pray you make the right decision. Eternity is a very long time to suffer....Good luck... \o/

 

[Toska]

I love Maxwel's description of faith to you. For a very long time, I was like you. I believed in God and I believed that Jesus was His Son, sent to die for our sins. My problem was that I did not feel deserving of such a beautiful gift. How could God accept someone like me? Someone who had turned my back on Him so many times? That is the glory of His love for us. He never gave up on me and I finally accepted Jesus into my life.

I can tell you that once I did accept Him as my Savior, my life changed completely. I understand scripture so much more, He opened my eyes to His Word. The answers to your questions are all right there in the bible. I am still learning but, if you have specific questions, there are many people here who can guide you to certain passages in the bible that will help you. I am praying for you, asking God to help you see the truth of His Word. God Bless.

 

[RedTent]

To be able to know of God as you have learned is not from secular education, it came direct from God. It is a supernatural and wonderful thing to be able to see God in the world around us. That is the milk, the food of a new born in the family of God.

As you learn and grow, there will be Oh, so much more. How did Christ change the world? What are some of the eternal God principles God uses for ordering our world? What does the instruction in the Lord's prayer mean to us. You don't have to know any of these things, knowing Christ is enough. But the joy that happens when we reach for understanding is tremendous.

 

[BananaPie]

The debate is whether God is a physical reality or not, in which we are all agnostics on this point.

Howdy. Would you agree that without a computer, a computer program is meaningless?

How do you know you have a computer program if you don't have a computer to program?
Another example is Time. Without the Sun, time is meaningless.

Similarly, physical reality is very irrelevant if there is no physical brain to process really. In other words, the capacity to think is how physical reality exists. ...just saying.

 

[Shouryu]

"A God small enough for our human minds to completely comprehend is a God that is not big enough to meet our needs." - Chuck Missler

The more you try to fit Him into a box of whatever size or shape you choose, the more you choose for Him to not have purpose in your life. Acknowledge the Lord in ALL of your ways...not merely the ways that you can make sense of, or the ways that are merely convenient.

 

[doseofreality]

Howdy. Would you agree that without a computer, a computer program is meaningless?

How do you know you have a computer program if you don't have a computer to program?
Another example is Time. Without the Sun, time is meaningless.

Similarly, physical reality is very irrelevant if there is no physical brain to process really. In other words, the capacity to think is how physical reality exists. ...just saying.

Yes i agree with you.

Maybe you misunderstand what I mean or I chose the wrong words.
When i said "physical reality" I only meant to contrast it from the abstract concept that only exists in our minds.

My point is that whether God (with all the qualities and characteristics attributed to Him in the Bible) exists in some form is unknowable for certain, thus we are all agnostics on this point.

Otherwise why is there need for belief and faith?

Many will not like this because of the bad connotations regarding the term "agnosticism" but in the strictest sense the word means "I do not know".

P.S. As a math tutor I must say I love your username

 

[p_rehbein]

agnostic...........
n. noun

• One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
  
• One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
  
• One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

adj. adjective

• Relating to or being an agnostic.
  
• Doubtful or noncommittal.
  
  
  Any person who fits this definition is not a Christian/disciple of Christ in my opinion...........so, I completely disagree with the assertion that we are ALL agnostics...........goodness.......

 

[doseofreality]

agnostic...........
n. noun

• One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
• One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
• One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

adj. adjective

• Relating to or being an agnostic.
• Doubtful or noncommittal.
  
  
  Any person who fits this definition is not a Christian/disciple of Christ in my opinion...........so, I completely disagree with the assertion that we are ALL agnostics...........goodness.......

[h=2]"Origin of AGNOSTIC[/h]Greek agnōstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnōstosknown, from gignōskein to know — more at knowFirst Known Use: 1869 "





"1 : a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god "


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic

 

[p_rehbein]

this definition, that definition, the point remains that anyone who believes this way is NOT a Christian/disciple of Christ in my opinion................

[edited to say.............you ONLY included PART of the M.W. definition]

Agnostic - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

[doseofreality]

yes i only used the definitions that supported my use of the word in my posts...i did supply the link

anyway its semantics which definition you use, i disagree with the popular common use of the word.

Again my only point is that no one knows the existence of God, so even christians are agnostics according to the original Greek definition.

You believe that God exists because of the Scriptures, testimonies, inferences, personal experiences, etc.

 

[p_rehbein]

yes i only used the definitions that supported my use of the word in my posts...i did supply the link

anyway its semantics which definition you use, i disagree with the popular common use of the word.

Again my only point is that no one knows the existence of God, so even christians are agnostics according to the original Greek definition.

You believe that God exists because of the Scriptures, testimonies, inferences, personal experiences, etc.

That is your opinion/belief...and you are entitled to your opinion but......that does NOT make it Truth........just saying.......YOU may not know God exists.........that's your loss, but please do not try and justify your lack of faith/belief in The Lord God by insisting that ALL Christians do not believe/know He IS.........have the courtesy to remember that this is a Christian Forum, and while you may not believe in God, we do.

 

[doseofreality]

That is your opinion/belief...and you are entitled to your opinion but......that does NOT make it Truth........just saying.......YOU may not know God exists.........that's your loss, but please do not try and justify your lack of faith/belief in The Lord God by insisting that ALL Christians do not believe/know He IS.........have the courtesy to remember that this is a Christian Forum, and while you may not believe in God, we do.

i am not intending to attack anyone's BELIEF

belief is not same as knowledge

with that I concede out of courtesy to the CC chat