There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

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Nov 19, 2012
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Re: Wrong...

Oh whoops sorry, misread your definition.
That was my bad.
There is still no evidence that elohim=trinity.
Yahweh Elohim.

Singular, plural.

Juxtaposed.

Used thousands of times in the OT.

Keep your ignorance flowing...
 
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tucksma

Guest
Re: Wrong...

Yahweh Elohim.

Singular, plural.

Juxtaposed.

Used thousands of times in the OT.

Keep your ignorance flowing...
That isn't even proof......

Elohim is plural yes.
Yahweh is sigular yes.
It nevers says they refer to the same thing. Yahweh fits into Elohim, because it simply means "mighty ones" but angels do too.
Cool its used in the OT, didn't disagree with that.

Keep your sarcastic comments flowing because that teaches me so much about your character :)
 
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tucksma

Guest
Also Elohim doesn't have a set number to it. It doesn't say just three. It means just is more that one.

I wasn't saying Yahweh cannot be called Elohim, simply Elohim doesn't mean the trinity.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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Re: Wrong...

That isn't even proof......

Elohim is plural yes.
Yahweh is sigular yes.
It nevers says they refer to the same thing. Yahweh fits into Elohim, because it simply means "mighty ones" but angels do too.
Cool its used in the OT, didn't disagree with that.

I already provided a fully referenced exegesis of the Shema in this thread which denies your unreferenced opinion.
 
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Nov 19, 2012
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Also Elohim doesn't have a set number to it. It doesn't say just three. It means just is more that one.
It literally means 'two or more'.




I wasn't saying Yahweh cannot be called Elohim, simply Elohim doesn't mean the trinity.
What about 'haelohim'......which literally means 'All The Gods'...what about that...?
 
Nov 19, 2012
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We know from reading the context of Gen 20 that Abimelech actually encountered the THREE persons known as Yahweh (i.e. ‘haelohim’…. ‘all the Gods’ ; Gen 20.06).

Thus, Abimelech understood that Abraham was speaking regarding the Triune God rather than as a polytheist.

Abraham later prays to the Trinity ‘haelohim’ (all the Gods) to heal Abimelech (Gen 20.17).
 
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tucksma

Guest
I'm looking for haelohim but cannot find it. Have a verse?

Also I was looking up Theos and I don't see Jesus ever being called Theos rather the Son of Theos.
Do you have a verse that directly calls him Theos?
 
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tucksma

Guest
In chapter 20, blue letter bible calls God Elohim and I've never heard any complaints about blue letter bible.
 
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Kerry

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Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father. He also said before Abraham was I AM. John 1:1 puts Him as the creator. What more do you want?
 
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tucksma

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Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father. He also said before Abraham was I AM. John 1:1 puts Him as the creator. What more do you want?
I've expalined all of these sections on here.

Right now I'm only discussing Bowman on these specific words because I do find them interesting.

(Realize Bowman I said discussing, I'm done debating simply trying to discuss)
 
Nov 19, 2012
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I've expalined all of these sections on here.

Right now I'm only discussing Bowman on these specific words because I do find them interesting.

(Realize Bowman I said discussing, I'm done debating simply trying to discuss)

No problem...
 
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tucksma

Guest
I clicked your link and it still is saying God is Elohim. It says "Abraham prayed to God (Elohim) and God (Elohim)...."
 
Nov 19, 2012
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I clicked your link and it still is saying God is Elohim. It says "Abraham prayed to God (Elohim) and God (Elohim)...."
A couple of things:

1) You need to look to the Hebrew verse at the top....you are incorrectly looking to the generic 'elohim' in the below description.

2) According to your position, Abraham prayed to mere angels....which is blasphemy!


Time to rethink your 'angel' position...
 
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tucksma

Guest
Relooking at the #1 part.

With the #2 not so much based on what I've explained to you as God manifestation. According to my position, angels can carry the name of God because they are his messengers. Abraham can pray to the angels, which carry God's name, and act in God's name. So the position still works in this scenario.
 
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tucksma

Guest
So with the #1 I'm not a hebrew scholar. Idk what credentials you have, but I know that Blueletterbible does a pretty good job. They don't say haelohim anywhere at least that I can read. If it does in the hebrew on top, I would think they would put it somewhere in the bottem. I personally feel safer with going with a source for bible study then on the word of a man I don't know anything about (no offense).
 
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Dix

Guest
I don't really use the word trinity .Because the word is not there, but the teaching is . But its not really explained well by most. And many things are working into it, and things omitted from scriptures at the same time. All under the tittle of trinity ,because of this pollution , I just stick to scriptures and avoid labeling scriptures.

Simple, Emmanuel means God with Us. Read All of John, the word was God, and the word became flesh and walked among us.

That shows One God, in the office on the Son , also Father, and the Holy Spirit.

It is like your a father to your children, your also a husband to your wife, your a worker to your Job. You have different titles and roles, but there is only One of you... Likewise there is Only one God we worship.

This is what the Bible teaches . Call it a trinity if you want. But there is only one God, and scripture is clear. Though the wording and teachings of Christ may throw some people still learning the Bible.

He was not here to reveal Himself as the Father, He came as deliverer of the world, to teach people to Love the Father in Heaven. That is what our Father came here to do.




I know that Jesus is God, the same Jehova that was from the begining

Now who is the Holly spirit? mind that there are many spirit that are coming from God and that they are holly too, they include angels and the anointing that dwells in men
 
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Arwen4CJ

Guest
Re: Still jacked...

There are scriptures that state that Jesus is Theos. He is God the Son, but he is not God the Father. Jesus is subject to the Theos that is greater than him, at least that's what he said.
What do you do with scriptures (at least 35 ) where Jesus is referring to his God, "which is in heaven"? How many times does Jesus have to say "which is in heaven" before you believe him that he is on the earth and God is not on the earth, but is in heaven. How can they be consubstantial and Jesus be on the earth and God is in heaven?
If they were one physically, Jesus would never say, "which is in heaven" he would say, "which is in me here on earth".
This whole subject is interesting and that is why I started by quoting Matthew 3:16-17 because you can give me any number of scriptures, but they all must pass the Matthew test. Let me give you an example. One of the interesting scriptures in the Bible is John 10:30. It just says, I and my Father are "one". Well now, how more straight-forward can you get. Jesus and his Father must be "one" physically consubstantial! Now lets use the Matthew test. The Matthew test is a straight-forward declaration that they are 3 separate and distinct Gods. God the Father in heaven speaking to people on the earth, God the Son standing by the river Jordan on the earth listening to his Father speak from heaven. And the Holy Ghost coming down from heaven and eventually lighting on Jesus. All 3 members of the Godhead present and accounted for, all in different places, not one physically consubstantial, as the creed says they are. So now we have a problem, John 10:30 does not pass the Matthew test. To reconcile the Holy Bible, we must look for a possible different answer. Further study reveals that the word "one" could mean "one physically consubstantial" or it could mean "one in mind and will, purpose and action" which would not require Jesus and God to be consubstantial. Long story short, that is the answer! If you read John, chapter 17 you will find that not only is Jesus and God "one", but the Apostles are "one" with Jesus and God. And so are the billions of people that believe in the word of the Apostles and believe in Jesus. They to are "one" with the Apostles and Jesus and God. It becomes rock solid that John 10:30 does not mean "one" physically, but "one" in mind and will, purpose and action. When you read John 10:30 as "one" in purpose it passes the Matthew test and all is right with the Bible.
So give me any scripture in the Bible and lets see if it passes the Matthew test.
The Athanasian Creed explicitly says that Jesus is not the Father, and that the Father is not Jesus. Christian orthodoxy has never claimed that Jesus is the Father. Anyone who claimed that Jesus is the Father would be branded a heretic. Saying that Jesus is the Father is modalism, which I already explained in this thread.

As for discussing, John 10:30 let me again post this again:

Deuteronomy 32:39 (NASB, but feel free to look it up in whatever translation you prefer)
[SUP]39 [/SUP]‘See now that I, I am He,
And there is no god besides Me
;
It is I who put to death and give life.
I have wounded and it is I who heal,
And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Notice here that Yahweh says :
1.) He gives life
2.) It is God who puts to death
3.) that no one can deliver from His hand
4.) that there is no god besides Him.

Isaiah 43:12-14 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed,
And there was no strange god among you;
So you are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“And I am God
.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“Even [SUP][a][/SUP]from eternity I am He,
And there is none who can deliver out of My hand
;
I act and who can reverse it?

Just a note here, look at Isaiah 43:12 -- I don't know Hebrew, but I do know that the translators translated YHWH to LORD. I also am pretty sure that the word "God" here is translated from the word Elohim. This is a case where Yahweh Himself says that He is Elohim. If this is so, how can they be two different gods?

Again, Yahweh says this about Himself:
1.) there is none who can deliver out of His hand.
2.) He also says that from eternity, "I am He."

John 10:22-30 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; [SUP]23 [/SUP]it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. [SUP]24 [/SUP]The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long [SUP][b][/SUP]will You keep us in suspense? If You are [SUP][c][/SUP]the Christ, tell us plainly.” [SUP]25 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. [SUP]27 [/SUP]My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; [SUP]28 [/SUP]and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. [SUP]29 [/SUP][SUP][d][/SUP]My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. [SUP]30 [/SUP]I and the Father are [SUP][e][/SUP]one.”

Now, let's look at the context of John 10:22-30.
Jesus claims these things:
1.) the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me
2.) I give eternal life to them (It is I who give life -- Deuteronomy 32:39)
3.) they will never perish (It is I who put to death -- Deuteronomy 32:39)
4.) no one will snatch them out of My hand. (There is no one who can deliver from My hand Deuteronomy 32:39; there is none who can deliver out of My Hand -- Isaiah 43:13)

Why?
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
(So Jesus is essentially saying that what is true of the Father is also true of Him).

Ultimately because:
I and the Father are [SUP][e][/SUP]one.
(In other words, Jesus and the Father are the same God -- Yahweh.)

Now do you understand why the Jews considered this blasphemy?

His statement wasn't "We're one because we're one in purpose." To interpret John 10:30 as you do would not be blasphemy. The Jews only believed in one God, Yahweh. Jesus was making a direct claim in John 10 that He Himself was Yahweh, just as the Father is Yahweh.

This is the context of John 10.
 
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Arwen4CJ

Guest
I think we could also use the information in Deuteronomy 32:39 to show that the Holy Spirit also has to be Yahweh

Deuteronomy 32:39 (NASB, but feel free to look it up in whatever translation you prefer)
[SUP]39 [/SUP]‘See now that I, I am He,
And there is no god besides Me
;
It is I who put to death and give life.
I have wounded and it is I who heal,
And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Notice here that Yahweh says :
1.) He gives life
2.) It is God who puts to death
3.) that no one can deliver from His hand
4.) that there is no god besides Him.


Why?
Because we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit
We are also sealed by the Holy Spirit and marked as His.

I'd have to go through the Bible to find an exact match here, but I think we can find something. I did find some OT passages a long time ago that showed that the Holy Spirit does things that only Yahweh can do. This had to do with things like leading people into truth and guiding them. I'll look again.
 
A

Arwen4CJ

Guest
I know that Jesus is God, the same Jehova that was from the begining

Now who is the Holly spirit? mind that there are many spirit that are coming from God and that they are holly too, they include angels and the anointing that dwells in men
The Holy Spirit is Yahweh (God, Jehovah).

The easiest passage to demonstrate this with is in Acts chapter 5.

Acts 5:1-11, NASB
5 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, [SUP]2 [/SUP]and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s [SUP][a][/SUP]full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? [SUP]4 [/SUP]While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not [SUP][b][/SUP]under your control? Why is it that you have [SUP][c][/SUP]conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it. [SUP]6 [/SUP]The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And Peter responded to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land [SUP][d][/SUP]for such and such a price?” And she said, “Yes, [SUP][e][/SUP]that was the price.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]Then Peter said to her, “Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.


1.) As we've said elsewhere in the thread, God says over and over again throughout the Bible that there is only one God, Yahweh

2.) Lying to the Holy Spirit = lying to God


Some denominations call the Holy Spirit the Holy Ghost. These terms mean the same thing.

The Holy Spirit is different from angels. One of the pastors at a church I used to attend said that the Holy Spirit is the empowering member of the Trinity.

Here are some passages of Scripture that show who the Holy Spirit is and some of the things that He does:

John 14:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]I will ask the Father, and He will give you another [SUP][b][/SUP]Helper, that He may be with you forever;[SUP]17 [/SUP]that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.


John 14:25-27 (NASB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.

John 14:26-27 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“When the [SUP][h][/SUP]Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, [SUP]27 [/SUP][SUP][i][/SUP]and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.


John 15:12-15 (NASB)[SUP]12 [/SUP]“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.[SUP]14 [/SUP]He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.


2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:1-11 (NASB)
12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware. [SUP]2 [/SUP]You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking [SUP][a][/SUP]by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is [SUP][b][/SUP]accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except [SUP][c][/SUP]by the Holy Spirit.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. [SUP]6 [/SUP]There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; [SUP]9 [/SUP]to another faith [SUP][d][/SUP]by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of [SUP][e][/SUP]healing [SUP][f][/SUP]by the one Spirit, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and to another the [SUP][g][/SUP]effecting of [SUP][h][/SUP]miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the [SUP][i][/SUP]distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In [SUP][q][/SUP]Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also [SUP][r][/SUP]believed, you were sealed in [SUP][s][/SUP]Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who is [SUP][t][/SUP]given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Galatians 5:16-26 (NASB)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh [SUP][g][/SUP]sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you [SUP][h][/SUP]please. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: [SUP][i][/SUP]immorality, impurity, sensuality, [SUP]20 [/SUP]idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, [SUP][j][/SUP]factions, [SUP]21 [/SUP]envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Now those who [SUP][k][/SUP]belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

[SUP]25[/SUP]If we live by the Spirit, let us also [SUP][l][/SUP]walk by the Spirit. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

Does that help to answer your question?