There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity
- Thread starter Swingalong
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Re: Still jacked...
Your comments are right on target if you believe that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are consubstantial. Now reconcile those verses with Matthew 3:16-17. If the Father and the Son and the Holy Spitit are all 3 the same Yahweh God, then John the Baptist would see Yahweh on earth coming out of the Jordan River. He would have seen Yahweh coming from heaven and eventually landing on the Yahweh standing next to him. He would have heard a voice from heaven and looked up into the air and heard Yahweh speaking to the crowd from heaven, while Yahweh was still standing next to him.
The end result for John is that the 3 are not consubstantial. You need to reconcile Matthew 3:16-17 with John 10:22-30.
Your comments are right on target if you believe that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are consubstantial. Now reconcile those verses with Matthew 3:16-17. If the Father and the Son and the Holy Spitit are all 3 the same Yahweh God, then John the Baptist would see Yahweh on earth coming out of the Jordan River. He would have seen Yahweh coming from heaven and eventually landing on the Yahweh standing next to him. He would have heard a voice from heaven and looked up into the air and heard Yahweh speaking to the crowd from heaven, while Yahweh was still standing next to him.
The end result for John is that the 3 are not consubstantial. You need to reconcile Matthew 3:16-17 with John 10:22-30.
If you want to know the real truth, there are not many Christians that agree exactly about the nature of God and Jesus and the Holy Ghost. Everyone has their own thoughts about how it all works. That has been so since the death and resurrection of Christ. It will always be until he returns and then we will know all there is to know about the Godhead and how it works. So until then, enjoy the discussion.
Re: Still jacked...
Okay wrap this Reality around your brain:
Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]`And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
You are right, He was NOT talking about a particular Church building, NOR a specific Denomination; so those pride trips over MY CHURCH, are most likely a form of sin. Not because of what the Church does or stands for, but because of the prideful patting self on the back says "Look what we have done"; instead of LOOK WHAT HE HAS DONE.
So exactly what is HIS ASSEMBLY that HE is building?
AND WHO REALLY IS THE ONE BUILDING THE ASSEMBLY?
I believe the answer lies in these verses:
Romans 4:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
John 10:14-16 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and
I lay down My life for the sheep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And other sheep I have
which are not of this fold;
them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and
there will be one flock and one shepherd.
Isaiah 43:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.
t t t
I believe that Genuine Old Testament saints, are those
who did believe that Deity would come as MESSIAH the anointed Savior.
While we genuine New Testament saints, are those who do believe that
Deity did come as MESSIAH the anointed Saviour, who is Jesus Christ.
Therefore, True Believers of the O.T. age and the Churh age, ARE one in
the FAITH of Abraham, because we BOTH believed what GOD said in Is. 43:11.
THAT is the ASSEMBLY that CHRIST Himself is building, that ONE FLOCK!
WE BOTH agree, that MESSIAH is DEITY, just like GOD said in Is. 43:11;
and therefore we are BOTH one "IN CHRIST THE MESSIAH".
Okay wrap this Reality around your brain:
Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]`And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
You are right, He was NOT talking about a particular Church building, NOR a specific Denomination; so those pride trips over MY CHURCH, are most likely a form of sin. Not because of what the Church does or stands for, but because of the prideful patting self on the back says "Look what we have done"; instead of LOOK WHAT HE HAS DONE.
So exactly what is HIS ASSEMBLY that HE is building?
AND WHO REALLY IS THE ONE BUILDING THE ASSEMBLY?
I believe the answer lies in these verses:
Romans 4:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
John 10:14-16 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and
I lay down My life for the sheep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And other sheep I have
which are not of this fold;
them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and
there will be one flock and one shepherd.
Isaiah 43:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.
t t t
I believe that Genuine Old Testament saints, are those
who did believe that Deity would come as MESSIAH the anointed Savior.
While we genuine New Testament saints, are those who do believe that
Deity did come as MESSIAH the anointed Saviour, who is Jesus Christ.
Therefore, True Believers of the O.T. age and the Churh age, ARE one in
the FAITH of Abraham, because we BOTH believed what GOD said in Is. 43:11.
THAT is the ASSEMBLY that CHRIST Himself is building, that ONE FLOCK!
WE BOTH agree, that MESSIAH is DEITY, just like GOD said in Is. 43:11;
and therefore we are BOTH one "IN CHRIST THE MESSIAH".
Truly, I do not see how you get from the word "God" the idea of either "triune" or "polytheist" in this chapter.
God (triune or polytheist ??????) told Abimelech he was a dead man if he touched Sarah.
Abimelech pleads with God.
Abimelech asks Abraham why he did this to him.
Abimelech gives Abraham a great gift and sends him and Sarah away.
God heals all of those in the house of Abimelech.
The end. No context about triune or plolythiest that I can see. Just God. Unless you have some hebrew translation that gives different names to God which is not unusual.
A better encounter of the 3 persons known as Yahweh would be Genesis chapter 18 as Abraham entertains 3 holy men. Many Christian scholars say that this was the Godhead that visited Abraham. Do you have context on this encounter?
God (triune or polytheist ??????) told Abimelech he was a dead man if he touched Sarah.
Abimelech pleads with God.
Abimelech asks Abraham why he did this to him.
Abimelech gives Abraham a great gift and sends him and Sarah away.
God heals all of those in the house of Abimelech.
The end. No context about triune or plolythiest that I can see. Just God. Unless you have some hebrew translation that gives different names to God which is not unusual.
A better encounter of the 3 persons known as Yahweh would be Genesis chapter 18 as Abraham entertains 3 holy men. Many Christian scholars say that this was the Godhead that visited Abraham. Do you have context on this encounter?
Re: Still jacked...
Thank you for your words. We are all of the same flock. We do, however, believe differently about real sensitive items that perhaps we should not even debate because maybe the true answer is not available, and in our enthusiasm to prove our point, we may offend others in the flock and split the flock. This in fact has been done over the centuries and the only way that the true flock will come together again will be when Jesus returns and tells us the whole truth from the beginning to the end. It will be a glorious day of enlightenment. I look forward to that day. But in the mean time I will enjoy the discussion and hope all enjoy too.
Thank you for your words. We are all of the same flock. We do, however, believe differently about real sensitive items that perhaps we should not even debate because maybe the true answer is not available, and in our enthusiasm to prove our point, we may offend others in the flock and split the flock. This in fact has been done over the centuries and the only way that the true flock will come together again will be when Jesus returns and tells us the whole truth from the beginning to the end. It will be a glorious day of enlightenment. I look forward to that day. But in the mean time I will enjoy the discussion and hope all enjoy too.
No.
Nor do you have any scriptures for this meritless assertion.
Malek Yahweh is so called because He IS Yahweh.
God The Son, in the OT.
No.
That is pure blasphemy.
God accepts ONLY direct worship - not through angels.
The Book of Revelation makes this abundantly clear as John is rebuked TWICE for attempting to worship an angel.
Nor do you have any scriptures for this meritless assertion.
Malek Yahweh is so called because He IS Yahweh.
God The Son, in the OT.
No.
That is pure blasphemy.
God accepts ONLY direct worship - not through angels.
The Book of Revelation makes this abundantly clear as John is rebuked TWICE for attempting to worship an angel.
John 10:25-30 (ESV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me,
[SUP]26 [/SUP] but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] I and the Father are one.”
1 Corinthians 2:10-14 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
John 3:3-7 (NIV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
[SUP]4 [/SUP] "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me,
[SUP]26 [/SUP] but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] I and the Father are one.”
1 Corinthians 2:10-14 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
John 3:3-7 (NIV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
[SUP]4 [/SUP] "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
T
I didn't say worship, I said pray. There is a difference. And you are praying to God, but the angel is what does the work of God.
The verses i use to show God manifestation are the same ones you use to show Jesus pre existed. We interpret them differently. I look at them as angels because they are called elohim, which means might ones. You look at it as pre existant Jesus because...well because I really don't know why because it doesn't say it is him but I do see interpreting it like that. Both our interpretations work there though.
The verses i use to show God manifestation are the same ones you use to show Jesus pre existed. We interpret them differently. I look at them as angels because they are called elohim, which means might ones. You look at it as pre existant Jesus because...well because I really don't know why because it doesn't say it is him but I do see interpreting it like that. Both our interpretations work there though.
A
Re: Still jacked...
You're acting like God is just like us humans, being present in one place at one time, and that the rules that govern human physics also apply to God.
That's not the case. We and God are very different. He is our Creator, and He is a lot bigger than us. He has attributes which we do not, and that we cannot comprehend with our human brains. His ways are higher than our ways. He is so much above us. One of the attributes that God has that we do not is omnipresence. This means that God can be everywhere at once.
Have you ever read the book called Flatland? If you haven't, it's a book about characters who are shapes. The main character is a square -- a literal 2-D square. He lives in a 2-D world where all he can see is the sides and points of other characters and objects in his world. When he goes into his house, he just sees an opening that is the door, but he is completely unaware that his house is open on the top. The 3rd dimension (height) does exist in his 2-D world, but he can't see it. He has no concept of it. He just thinks everything is flat because that is his perspective.
Then another shape (I think it is a sphere) comes along and takes him to other worlds. He takes the square to pointland. Pointland is a 1-D world. He sees that length is really present in the 1-D world even though the characters in pointland can't see length.
He is also taken to the 3-D world. The sphere also takes him above flatland so that he can see Flatland from above....he then can see that all their houses are open on top, and he gets a sense of this dimension that he never knew existed before.
I think that analogy can be used with us and God. We are on earth, and we can't see things from God's perspective. We can't comprehend God as He truly is because we are limited in our perspective. What if, from God's perspective, the triune God all makes sense, but we're just seeing like a point or each side individually (using the shape analogy).
Because omnipresence is an attribute of deity, then this not only applies to all of Yahweh, but to each Person who is God as well. That is how the Holy Spirit can be everywhere at once, for example.
So, given that Yahweh is omnipresent, I see absolutely no problem with Matthew 3:16-17. The verse shows that all three Persons of Yahweh were present at Jesus' baptism. It also shows that the Father is not Jesus, that the Father is not the Holy Spirit. That Jesus is not the Father, and that Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. That the Holy Spirit is not the Father, and that the Holy Spirit is not Jesus. They are all Yahweh. Where is the problem?
The three Persons are consubstantial because they are all the one God, Yahweh.
Can we explain why Yahweh exists like this -- that He is triune? No. But we have to accept it on the basis of the evidence given to us in Scripture. God is God. This is just how He exists.
You're acting like God is just like us humans, being present in one place at one time, and that the rules that govern human physics also apply to God.
That's not the case. We and God are very different. He is our Creator, and He is a lot bigger than us. He has attributes which we do not, and that we cannot comprehend with our human brains. His ways are higher than our ways. He is so much above us. One of the attributes that God has that we do not is omnipresence. This means that God can be everywhere at once.
Have you ever read the book called Flatland? If you haven't, it's a book about characters who are shapes. The main character is a square -- a literal 2-D square. He lives in a 2-D world where all he can see is the sides and points of other characters and objects in his world. When he goes into his house, he just sees an opening that is the door, but he is completely unaware that his house is open on the top. The 3rd dimension (height) does exist in his 2-D world, but he can't see it. He has no concept of it. He just thinks everything is flat because that is his perspective.
Then another shape (I think it is a sphere) comes along and takes him to other worlds. He takes the square to pointland. Pointland is a 1-D world. He sees that length is really present in the 1-D world even though the characters in pointland can't see length.
He is also taken to the 3-D world. The sphere also takes him above flatland so that he can see Flatland from above....he then can see that all their houses are open on top, and he gets a sense of this dimension that he never knew existed before.
I think that analogy can be used with us and God. We are on earth, and we can't see things from God's perspective. We can't comprehend God as He truly is because we are limited in our perspective. What if, from God's perspective, the triune God all makes sense, but we're just seeing like a point or each side individually (using the shape analogy).
Because omnipresence is an attribute of deity, then this not only applies to all of Yahweh, but to each Person who is God as well. That is how the Holy Spirit can be everywhere at once, for example.
So, given that Yahweh is omnipresent, I see absolutely no problem with Matthew 3:16-17. The verse shows that all three Persons of Yahweh were present at Jesus' baptism. It also shows that the Father is not Jesus, that the Father is not the Holy Spirit. That Jesus is not the Father, and that Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. That the Holy Spirit is not the Father, and that the Holy Spirit is not Jesus. They are all Yahweh. Where is the problem?
The three Persons are consubstantial because they are all the one God, Yahweh.
Can we explain why Yahweh exists like this -- that He is triune? No. But we have to accept it on the basis of the evidence given to us in Scripture. God is God. This is just how He exists.
A
Re: Still jacked...
Here's another one ....
Genesis 19:23-29 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]The sun had risen over the earth when Lot came to Zoar. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven, [SUP]25 [/SUP]and He overthrew those cities, and all the [SUP][w][/SUP]valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But his wife, from behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Now Abraham arose early in the morning and went to the place where he had stood before the LORD; [SUP]28 [/SUP]and he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the [SUP][x][/SUP]valley, and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land ascended like the smoke of a [SUP][y][/SUP]furnace.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Thus it came about, when God destroyed the cities of the [SUP][z][/SUP]valley, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot lived.
Here's another one ....
Genesis 19:23-29 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]The sun had risen over the earth when Lot came to Zoar. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven, [SUP]25 [/SUP]and He overthrew those cities, and all the [SUP][w][/SUP]valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But his wife, from behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Now Abraham arose early in the morning and went to the place where he had stood before the LORD; [SUP]28 [/SUP]and he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the [SUP][x][/SUP]valley, and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land ascended like the smoke of a [SUP][y][/SUP]furnace.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Thus it came about, when God destroyed the cities of the [SUP][z][/SUP]valley, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot lived.
A
That's the chapter before the part I just quoted from.....
Genesis 18, NASB
18 Now the LORD appeared to him by the [SUP][a][/SUP]oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. [SUP]2 [/SUP]When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, [SUP]3 [/SUP]and said, “[SUP][b][/SUP]My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not [SUP][c][/SUP]pass Your servant by. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and [SUP][d][/SUP]rest yourselves under the tree; [SUP]5 [/SUP]and I will [SUP][e][/SUP]bring a piece of bread, that you may [SUP][f][/SUP]refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have [SUP][g][/SUP]visited your servant.” And they said, “So do, as you have said.” [SUP]6 [/SUP]So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, “[SUP][h][/SUP]Quickly, prepare three [SUP][i][/SUP]measures of fine flour, knead it and make bread cakes.” [SUP]7 [/SUP]Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and [SUP][j][/SUP]choice calf and gave it to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it. [SUP]8 [/SUP]He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree [SUP][k][/SUP]as they ate.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “There, in the tent.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]He said, “I will surely return to you [SUP][l][/SUP]at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past [SUP][m][/SUP]childbearing. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Sarah laughed [SUP][n][/SUP]to herself, saying, “After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?” [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I indeed [SUP][o][/SUP]bear a child, when I am so old?’ [SUP]14 [/SUP]Is anything too [SUP][p][/SUP]difficult for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, [SUP][q][/SUP]at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]Sarah denied it however, saying, “I did not laugh”; for she was afraid. And He said, “No, but you did laugh.”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. [SUP]17 [/SUP]The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, [SUP]18 [/SUP]since Abraham will surely become a great and [SUP][r][/SUP]mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? [SUP]19[/SUP]For I have [SUP][s][/SUP]chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]And the LORD said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. [SUP]21 [/SUP]I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? [SUP]24 [/SUP]Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not [SUP][t][/SUP]spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it? [SUP]25 [/SUP]Far be it from You to do [SUP][u][/SUP]such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth [SUP][v][/SUP]deal justly?” [SUP]26 [/SUP]So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will [SUP][w][/SUP]spare the whole place on their account.” [SUP]27 [/SUP]And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have [SUP][x][/SUP]ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” [SUP]29 [/SUP]He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.” [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” [SUP]31 [/SUP]And he said, “Now behold, I have [SUP][y][/SUP]ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.” [SUP]32 [/SUP]Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.” [SUP]33 [/SUP]As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the LORD departed, and Abraham returned to his place.
This isn't rock solid, as it can be interpreted different ways, but it does suggest the strong possibility that three Persons are Yahweh.
For instance, it constantly shifts between plural and singular, even when Yahweh Himself is speaking about Himself. It seems to me that Yahweh appeared to Abraham in three Persons. Towards the end of the chapter, two of the Persons left, but Abraham was still left talking to the third Person, all three of which appear to be Yahweh.
Genesis 18, NASB
18 Now the LORD appeared to him by the [SUP][a][/SUP]oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. [SUP]2 [/SUP]When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, [SUP]3 [/SUP]and said, “[SUP][b][/SUP]My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not [SUP][c][/SUP]pass Your servant by. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and [SUP][d][/SUP]rest yourselves under the tree; [SUP]5 [/SUP]and I will [SUP][e][/SUP]bring a piece of bread, that you may [SUP][f][/SUP]refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have [SUP][g][/SUP]visited your servant.” And they said, “So do, as you have said.” [SUP]6 [/SUP]So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, “[SUP][h][/SUP]Quickly, prepare three [SUP][i][/SUP]measures of fine flour, knead it and make bread cakes.” [SUP]7 [/SUP]Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and [SUP][j][/SUP]choice calf and gave it to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it. [SUP]8 [/SUP]He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree [SUP][k][/SUP]as they ate.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “There, in the tent.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]He said, “I will surely return to you [SUP][l][/SUP]at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past [SUP][m][/SUP]childbearing. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Sarah laughed [SUP][n][/SUP]to herself, saying, “After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?” [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I indeed [SUP][o][/SUP]bear a child, when I am so old?’ [SUP]14 [/SUP]Is anything too [SUP][p][/SUP]difficult for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, [SUP][q][/SUP]at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]Sarah denied it however, saying, “I did not laugh”; for she was afraid. And He said, “No, but you did laugh.”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. [SUP]17 [/SUP]The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, [SUP]18 [/SUP]since Abraham will surely become a great and [SUP][r][/SUP]mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? [SUP]19[/SUP]For I have [SUP][s][/SUP]chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]And the LORD said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. [SUP]21 [/SUP]I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? [SUP]24 [/SUP]Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not [SUP][t][/SUP]spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it? [SUP]25 [/SUP]Far be it from You to do [SUP][u][/SUP]such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth [SUP][v][/SUP]deal justly?” [SUP]26 [/SUP]So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will [SUP][w][/SUP]spare the whole place on their account.” [SUP]27 [/SUP]And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have [SUP][x][/SUP]ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” [SUP]29 [/SUP]He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.” [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” [SUP]31 [/SUP]And he said, “Now behold, I have [SUP][y][/SUP]ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.” [SUP]32 [/SUP]Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.” [SUP]33 [/SUP]As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the LORD departed, and Abraham returned to his place.
This isn't rock solid, as it can be interpreted different ways, but it does suggest the strong possibility that three Persons are Yahweh.
For instance, it constantly shifts between plural and singular, even when Yahweh Himself is speaking about Himself. It seems to me that Yahweh appeared to Abraham in three Persons. Towards the end of the chapter, two of the Persons left, but Abraham was still left talking to the third Person, all three of which appear to be Yahweh.
Not only catholics, but all of orthodox christianity, which includes protestants, profess the Holy Trinity as an article of their faith. The vast majority of christendom could be wrong, but I am not convinced by your apology.
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, to the ages of the ages. Amen.
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, to the ages of the ages. Amen.
T
Look into the history of the trinity sometime and you'll see why so many believe it. Around 300ish AD there was a meeting where the trinity was voted on. The trinity side won but only by a few. Anyone who then didn't believe in the trinity was killed and it was like that for about 1000 years. That is why now most faiths believe it. I'm not saying it is right or wrong with this message, just saying that if that vote never happened 1, there would be a lot more wars and 2, There would be a lot more people not believing the trinity.
I know the history,at the council of Nicaea I in the year 325ad the church elders contributed to the formulation of the creed which professes belief in the Trinity. And yes many have been condemned and killed by those professing to be servants of Jesus Christ, even to this day. God is not mocked and what so ever a man sows that shall he also reap.
May God have mercy on all our souls in Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
May God have mercy on all our souls in Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.