There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

[Arwen4CJ]

So what your basically trying to say is that John who was guided and inspired by God himself through the holy spirit quoted a text which was wrongly translated which is now forever written in Bibles at John 19:37, this I find hard to believe. We don't even know what Manuscript John quoted from, so for anybody to assume he did would be foolish.

No....I'm saying that the NT authors used the Septuagint when they referred to Scripture from the OT. The Septuagint is a translation of the Hebrew. It isn't a bad translation, but it is a translation. It's the same thing as when we quote Bible quotes from translations. Yes, the Holy Spirit inspired the biblical writers, and John was inspired to quote from the Septuagint.

I was merely explaining why the NT differs in exact wording from the OT passages that it quotes, since this seemed to make a big difference to you in regard to Zechariah 12:10. It is something we need to keep in mind when we look at the places in the Bible where the NT quotes the OT, or when it refers to the OT. That isn't to say that the authors were not familiar with the Hebrew, or whatever.

Greek was the scholarly language back then, so it makes sense for the NT authors to quote the Septuagint, which was in Greek...rather than the Hebrew. The very fact that the Holy Spirit inspired them to reference certain Scriptures does sometimes point to Jesus' deity, if we consider what the Hebrew for those passages was.

I thought it was pretty much accepted that the NT authors quoted from the Septuagint rather than the Hebrew....

The fact remains, John, the anointed, the apostle of Christ would of surely spoken the correct translation, by accurate direction by God and also through his knowledge on the scripture by being time spent with Jesus. You spoke of logic to me before so think for a second, if the "him" in Zec 12:10 with regard to Jesus is not disputed, and neither is the text john writing in John 19:37 but the "me" in Zechariah 12:10 is then would it be logical to base a belief on such a debated verse, I know I wouldn't.

You are correct that no doctrine should be based off of one interpretation of one Scripture. So we will move on to others.

So again my statement still stands, Zechariah 12:10 cannot be used to show Jesus is Jehovah, even if it is the correct translation which it most probably isn't, reasoning based on Matthew 10:40 along with 1 Samuel 8:5,7 shows how its still possible.

We'll move on to other passages. yes.

No worries, take your time friend.

Thanks.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

if the trinity is true then who is Jehovah, God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or the Father?

Jehovah = the whole triune God

And as such, it is correct to say all of the following:
The Father = Jehovah
Jesus = Jehovah
The Holy Spirit = Jehovah

One God, Jehovah, in three Persons

 

[Arwen4CJ]

"I am he" comes us 21 times in scripture and not all of them refer to Jesus or God, so It can also refer to a man. I am He could be him saying "I am the one prophesied about" or " I am the savior" or MANY different things.

Look at the context of the verses that I showed. They aren't just random "I am" statements. They are very specific, and it seems to me that there is a specific meaning that is conveyed by the statement "I am," or "I am He."

 

[Bowman]

I'm sorry I cant seem to find the name Jehovah in reference to Jesus in Isaiah 9:6, as far as I can see Jesus is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father and Prince of peace in the verse. No mention of Jehovah at all.

You care to show or explain what you meant?

So that you are without excuse, Yahweh is called-out in Isa 9.7. The Hebrew script was a continuous stream of characters...and was artifically divided into chapters and verses at a later date.

The fact that The Son has the same singular NAME as the Father is the message.

You can't dismiss this...

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Or they through stones at him because he just called himself more important than the "father of the Jews". Abraham was regarded VERY highly by Jews and Jesus just said he was more important. (by how I interpret it) This being so, they would definitely throw stones at him.

Stoning was reserved for blasphemy -- such as claiming to be God.

Claiming to be greater than Abraham isn't really blasphemy.....

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Next passage to look at:

Isaiah 40:1-6 (NASB)

40 “Comfort, O comfort My people,” says your God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]“Speak [SUP][a][/SUP]kindly to Jerusalem;
And call out to her, that her [SUP][b][/SUP]warfare has ended,
That her [SUP][c][/SUP]iniquity has been removed,
That she has received of the LORD'S hand
Double for all her sins.”


[SUP]3 [/SUP]A voice [SUP][d][/SUP]is calling,
“Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness;
Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“Let every valley be lifted up,
And every mountain and hill be made low;
And let the rough ground become a plain,
And the rugged terrain a broad valley;
[SUP]5 [/SUP][SUP][e][/SUP]Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
And all flesh will see it together;
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]A voice says, “Call out.”


Based on only the text for Isaiah 40:1-6, please answer these questions:
1.) Who is this person making a way for?
2.) Whose glory will be revealed?

 

[NWL]

When John quoted the Scripture from Zechariah 12:10, it appears that either the whole verse wasn't present in the Septuagint, or it wasn't meant to be a direct quote of the actual verse, but rather just enough words that gave reference to the Scripture, so everyone would know what verse he was referring to.

I'm not sure what the Septuagint actually says there....but we do know that John intended to refer back to Zechariah 12:10, showing that Jesus was pierced, yes.

Since I don't know Hebrew, I cannot argue that it should be the way that the NASB renders it for sure....but it does present an interesting viewpoint...that YHWH might use both pronouns to refer to Himself. This doesn't prove anything, though, and isn't as strong an argument, since some translations translate it differently from others. But it does provide something for us to think about.

Arwen4CJ I can see that you have the problem of reading pre-concieved ideas into scripture, tell me what scripture that states John was quoting from the Septuagint? Its purely speculative to say that he was, how is it you know he wasn't directly quoting from what he knew Zechariah 12:10 to actually say? You don't, again your merely assuming these things and reading it into scripture. Could it simply be that John quoted Zechariah with the true understanding of Zechariah 12:10? I think so. The fact he was guided by Gods Holy spirit so logically wouldn't speak with inaccuracy hits the nail on the head for me with this one.

But how can this be -- really -- unless Jesus and the Father are both Jehovah? Any explanation short of this makes absolutely no sense to me.

But Samuel was not the exact image of God, nor did he ever claim, "if you've seen me, you've seen the Father." Nor did he claim, "I and the Father are one."

The statements that Jesus makes about Himself imply that there is a much greater connection between Himself and the Father -- something more than just a mere representative of Him.

It makes perfect sense, does the term "image of God" denote divinity or rather representative? Representative one hundred percent, Google the definition of image if you want. Is an logo image of a company the company itself, of course not, is your image in a mirror you yourself? No, likewise is Jesus who is the Image of God, God himself? No, its merely a representation/represenative of God.

Jesus was Gods representative the same way Samuel was, just in a greater way. Hence when Samuel was rejected, Jehovah was rejected, when Jesus was pierced it could be said God was pierced, this is a basic concept which children could grasp, don't claim ignorance my friend.

Note too that Jesus being one with the father does not imply Godlike divinity, for Jesus said with regard to him being one with the father that we too are to be one with them. We also are images of God, this though doesn't make us part of anything divine does it, so why would it with regard Jesus.

(John 17:21) "...That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us..."

(2 Corinthians 3:18) "...And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit..."

So Arwen4CJ, where are those scripture which show Jesus is Jehovah? Awaiting with interest friend.

**EDIT**

Just seen your latest post to me after posting this, reading it now

Based on only the text for Isaiah 40:1-6, please answer these questions:
1.) Who is this person making a way for?
2.) Whose glory will be revealed?

1.) YHWH
2.) YHWH

 

[prodigal_son13]

Brother though the word trinity came from pagans several times in the Bible is there evidence of God being three separate people though one in communion and in likeness, here is just a few to look at... Genesis 1:26 God says lets make man in OUR image; John 14:7; John 10:25-30. Brother it is true since the time of constantine and his bleeding of the pagan beliefs into his so called view of christianity there has been a taint but God is the God of the Bible and the Bible is not false... Ask God to open your eyes to what is truth and allow him to reveal himself...

 

[NWL]

So that you are without excuse, Yahweh is called-out in Isa 9.7. The Hebrew script was a continuous stream of characters...and was artifically divided into chapters and verses at a later date.

I hate to seem slow but I still cant see it Bowman. I still can't see where the name Jehovah is applied to Jesus, at the end of verse 7 I can see where there's a full stop (period) and reads after "the very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this". But I can't imaging any sane person try say that YHWH, in which verse seven said was the one who would cause all those previous things to occur was a "carry on" of names that were being given to Jesus listed in verse six.

(Isaiah 9:6) "...For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace..."

(Isaiah 9:6) ..."To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this..." (cleary not a carry on of names from verse 6)

The fact that The Son has the same singular NAME as the Father is the message.

You can't dismiss this...

Your wrong, I can dismiss it, since I cannot admit something which I haven't witnessed. You still haven't shown me, where in Isaiah 9:6,7 (or any verse) does it convey that Jesus and the Father share the same name Jehovah?

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Arwen4CJ I can see that you have the problem of reading pre-concieved ideas into scripture, tell me what scripture that states John was quoting from the Septuagint? Its purely speculative to say that he was, how is it you know he wasn't directly quoting from what he knew Zechariah 12:10 to actually say? You don't, again your merely assuming these things and reading it into scripture. Could it simply be that John quoted Zechariah with the true understanding of Zechariah 12:10? I think so. The fact he was guided by Gods Holy spirit so logically wouldn't speak with inaccuracy hits the nail on the head for me with this one.

No Scripture states that he was quoting from the Septuagint. The conclusion for that comes from extra-biblical scholarship, which probably includes methods of textual criticism. At any rate, the preface to every Bible translation that I've read states that the quotes in the NT of the OT were from the Septuagint. I'm not making it up, and it isn't just my theory.

We do know that the NT was written in Greek, and that Greek was the scholarly language of the time. It makes sense that the NT authors quoted from the Septuagint rather than from the Hebrew. This does not take away from Scripture, or from the inspiration of Scripture. God can use all forms of Scripture to teach us the truth, including all translations (which includes the Septuagint). It also doesn't take away from the fact that the Holy Spirit inspired the biblical authors to quote from it....so it is what He wanted to convey.

So -- whether or not the authors quoted directly from the Septuagint, whether they quoted directly from the Hebrew, or whether the Holy Spirit inspired them to write a short reference -like quote to refer back to Scripture doesn't matter. God conveyed what He wanted to convey -- and He pointed back to OT references.

It makes perfect sense, does the term "image of God" denote divinity or rather representative? Representative one hundred percent, Google the definition of image if you want. Is an logo image of a company the company itself, of course not, is your image in a mirror you yourself? No, likewise is Jesus who is the Image of God, God himself? No, its merely a representation/represenative of God.

We'll talk about this later.

Jesus was Gods representative the same way Samuel was, just in a greater way. Hence when Samuel was rejected, Jehovah was rejected, when Jesus was pierced it could be said God was pierced, this is a basic concept which children could grasp, don't claim ignorance my friend.

I think that that stretches things a bit. But ok -- let's move on.

Note too that Jesus being one with the father does not imply Godlike divinity, for Jesus said with regard to him being one with the father that we too are to be one with them. We also are images of God, this though doesn't make us part of anything divine does it, so why would it with regard Jesus.

Because of the context in which Jesus said it, and the context in which these things are stated of Jesus.

(John 17:21) "...That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us..."

(2 Corinthians 3:18) "...And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit..."

What translation are you quoting from? (I think I know what translation it is, but I want to be sure). The name Jehovah isn't in the Greek of the NT....

But it is interesting that you used that 2 Corinthian 3:18 verse -- it identifies the Holy Spirit as Jehovah....

So

Arwen4CJ, where are those scripture which show Jesus is Jehovah? Awaiting with interest friend.

**EDIT**

Just seen your latest post to me after posting this, reading it now



1.) YHWH
2.) YHWH

Correct Thank you.

There are a couple more passages I'd like to take a look at from the OT, and then we will put all these verses together and look at some NT passages as well.

Psalm 97:1-9 (NASB)
97 The LORD [SUP][a][/SUP]reigns, let the earth rejoice;
Let the many [SUP][b][/SUP]islands be glad.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Clouds and thick darkness surround Him;
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Fire goes before Him
And burns up His adversaries round about.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]His lightnings lit up the world;
The earth saw and trembled.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]The mountains melted like wax at the presence of the LORD,
At the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]The heavens declare His righteousness,
And all the peoples have seen His glory.


[SUP]7 [/SUP]Let all those be ashamed who serve graven images,
Who boast themselves of idols;
[SUP][c][/SUP]Worship Him, all you [SUP][d][/SUP]gods.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Zion [SUP][e][/SUP]heard this and was glad,
And the daughters of Judah have rejoiced
Because of Your judgments, O LORD.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For You are the LORD Most High over all the earth;
You are exalted far above all [SUP][f][/SUP]gods.



Questions based on Psalm 97:
1.) Who is this Psalm about?
2.) Who are they to worship?

(Yes, I'm going somewhere with all these questions -- you will see)

I'll post some other Scripture and ask you questions about those, too, to make this go faster.

 

[NWL]

Brother though the word trinity came from pagans several times in the Bible is there evidence of God being three separate people though one in communion and in likeness, here is just a few to look at... Genesis 1:26 God says lets make man in OUR image; John 14:7; John 10:25-30. Brother it is true since the time of constantine and his bleeding of the pagan beliefs into his so called view of christianity there has been a taint but God is the God of the Bible and the Bible is not false... Ask God to open your eyes to what is truth and allow him to reveal himself...

Jesus Christ in my belief is not part of the trinity, he yet had a pre-human life with God in the heavens, he was God only-begotten son, the God the Father created the world and universe through Jesus:

(Hebrews 1:1, 2) "...[God] has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things..."

You see how the verse above says "God through Jesus created the world", so when the scripture you posted comes up, Genesis 1:26, it's logical to assume that it was Jesus who God was speaking to when referring to "us", the concept of the trinity doesn't need to read into the verse so to be understood. That God said to Jesus "let us create man in our image", the Father then through Jesus (Heb 1:1,2) created us.

With regard to john 14:7 I'll say the same thing I posted not long ago to Arwen4CJ below;

Note too that Jesus being one with the father does not imply Godlike divinity, for Jesus said with regard to him being one with the father that we too are to be one with them.

(John 17:21) "...That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us..."

If we being one with Jesus and the Father doesn't make us part of a trinity, then Jesus being one with the Father defiantly doesn't make him part of the trinity. Remember the verse reads "that we are one with them the same way Jesus and the Father are one." basic logic.

My eyes are wide open my friend.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Psalm 102:18-28 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP][SUP][r][/SUP]This will be written for the generation to come,
[SUP][s][/SUP]That a people yet to be created [SUP][t][/SUP]may praise [SUP][u][/SUP]the LORD.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For He looked down from His holy height;
From heaven the LORD gazed [SUP][v][/SUP]upon the earth,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]To hear the groaning of the prisoner,
To set free [SUP][w][/SUP]those who were doomed to death,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]That men may tell of the name of the LORD in Zion
And His praise in Jerusalem,
[SUP]22 [/SUP]When the peoples are gathered together,
And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.


[SUP]23 [/SUP]He has weakened my strength in the way;
He has shortened my days.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the [SUP][x][/SUP]midst of my days,
Your years are throughout all generations.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“[SUP][y][/SUP]Even they will perish, but You endure;
And all of them will wear out like a garment;
Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]“But You are [SUP][z][/SUP]the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“The children of Your servants will continue,
And their [SUP][aa][/SUP]descendants will be established before You.”



Please use only the text from Psalm 102 to answer these questions:
1.) Who is this passage referring to?
2.) Who founded the earth?

 

[Bowman]

I hate to seem slow but I still cant see it Bowman. I still can't see where the name Jehovah is applied to Jesus, at the end of verse 7 I can see where there's a full stop (period) and reads after "the very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this". But I can't imaging any sane person try say that YHWH, in which verse seven said was the one who would cause all those previous things to occur was a "carry on" of names that were being given to Jesus listed in verse six.

(Isaiah 9:6) "...For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace..."

(Isaiah 9:6) ..."To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this..." (cleary not a carry on of names from verse 6)



Your wrong, I can dismiss it, since I cannot admit something which I haven't witnessed. You still haven't shown me, where in Isaiah 9:6,7 (or any verse) does it convey that Jesus and the Father share the same name Jehovah?

Periods don't exist in Hebrew, to begin with....and the context is Yahweh.

Further...just pick one of NAME attributes ascribed unto the Son in the verse and concord its usage.

Pick the word 'Wonderful' for example...the only two other places in the entirety of the Holy Bible that this term is used, applies to Yahweh!

Its so simple...but you always make it hard on yourself...

 

[dcontroversal]

Does the devil have a trinity ?

Does not (three spirits like unclean frogs) come out of the mouth of the dragon, beast and false prophet as well as the three just listed

Dragon, Beast and False Prophet

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Jesus Christ in my belief is not part of the trinity, he yet had a pre-human life with God in the heavens, he was God only-begotten son, the God the Father created the world and universe through Jesus:

(Hebrews 1:1, 2) "...[God] has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things..."

You see how the verse above says "God through Jesus created the world", so when the scripture you posted comes up, Genesis 1:26, it's logical to assume that it was Jesus who God was speaking to when referring to "us", the concept of the trinity doesn't need to read into the verse so to be understood. That God said to Jesus "let us create man in our image", the Father then through Jesus (Heb 1:1,2) created us.

But according to Isaiah 45 (and elsewhere in the Bible), God (Jehovah) is the only Creator. So if God through Jesus created the world, then that would mean that Jesus would have to be Jehovah, too. Otherwise it wouldn't have been God alone who created the world.

Yes, I think that God was speaking within Himself, in Genesis 1, which is yet another instance of the Bible referring to God in the plural, and yet is a singular God.

 

[dcontroversal]

Another point to ponder is the creation of Adam. The bible states that God created Adam in God's
(likeness) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.

Hebrew has the following...

singular
dual
plural (three or more)

The word life above is plural in Hebrew and means...God breathed into his nostrils the breath of LIVES
This can only be understood by the plurality of the word as three or more.

Three will suffice as in..
1. Spiritual Life
2. Intellectual Life
3. Physical Life..........................Body, Mind and Soul.....1 man with a triune being....in the image of God

1. Heavenly Father....Intellectual Life
2. Jesus (SON).........Physical Body (life)
3. Holy Spirit............Spiritual Life

Not to mention the command to Immerse in three different names as in The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit

 

[NWL]

Because of the context in which Jesus said it, and the context in which these things are stated of Jesus.

I'm interested to see how you believe the context is different even though Jesus stated with regard John 17 that the oneness was the same oneness they shared.

What translation are you quoting from? (I think I know what translation it is, but I want to be sure). The name Jehovah isn't in the Greek of the NT....

But it is interesting that you used that 2 Corinthian 3:18 verse -- it identifies the Holy Spirit as Jehovah....

Well most most bibles favored by trinitrians identity of the spirit in verse 17 and 18 is that of the Lord, Jesus Christ (there is one lord).

(2 Cor 3:17,18 KJV) "...Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord..."

However due to the fact that this verse is linked to the same things spoken of in the OT (Veil's - Exo 34:34) with regard to Jehovah and due to other factors based on context the identity of the Spirit here is the Father of the OT.

I use many different Bible, that quote which you asked about was from the NWT, note that this is not the only Bible that renders it as Jehovah. Note to that the Father is a spirit.

(John 4:23, 24) "...true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth... God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth...”

Questions based on Psalm 97:

1.) Who is this Psalm about?
2.) Who are they to worship?

(Yes, I'm going somewhere with all these questions -- you will see)

I'll post some other Scripture and ask you questions about those, too, to make this go faster.

1.) YHWH
2.) YHWH

I'm off to bed soon and then have work in the morning, so might not get back to you tonight but sometime in my afternoon, good speaking to you [/FONT]

Arwen4CJ.

 

[NWL]

Periods don't exist in Hebrew, to begin with....and the context is Yahweh.

Further...just pick one of NAME attributes ascribed unto the Son in the verse and concord its usage.

Pick the word 'Wonderful' for example...the only two other places in the entirety of the Holy Bible that this term is used, applies to Yahweh!

Its so simple...but you always make it hard on yourself...

Yes but they do in English, which we're speaking, and so too are the Bible we are using. I would've liked to given you a English written with no periods in before you had any type of Biblical knowledge and see how much you'd learn from it.

And of course it will, Jesus is the Image of God, of course they will share the same names in some cases. But to say that since Jesus and the Father share the same name like wonderful or another given example is proof that they must share the name Jehovah is absurd (the fact the HS doesn't share these names should be a red flag). The Bible isn't some guessing game which we can assume things when we see fit, unless it states it you can't proclaim it.

If its so simple then why isn't there a verse which says Jesus is Jehovah which you can so easily show me?

 

[NWL]

But according to Isaiah 45 (and elsewhere in the Bible), God (Jehovah) is the only Creator. So if God through Jesus created the world, then that would mean that Jesus would have to be Jehovah, too. Otherwise it wouldn't have been God alone who created the world.

Yes, I think that God was speaking within Himself, in Genesis 1, which is yet another instance of the Bible referring to God in the plural, and yet is a singular God.

That is flawed reasoning. I for example am a Carpenter and Electrician (worker), whenever I drive past a build which is completed I usually say to friends or family, "I built that house/Flat". Now in England we also have Architects who design the build, and produce and pay for material, they however do not build anything, they don't lift a finger. Now they when driving past completed building too can say to their friends and family "I built that flat/House". Both of us are correct, we both built the building. If I was the only worker on the job and were to say "I built that house all by myself, got no help by anyone else" I wouldn't be contradicting the Architects words

Likewise Jehovah is the originator of creation, he can rightfully be called the creator. Jesus too can be said to play a role in creation, why, because God through Jesus created the world (Heb 1:1,2) Does that mean that since Jehovah said he was the only creator (as in originator) that Jesus being playing a role in creation mean they are one and the same? No! The same way the Architect can say he's the creator because he designed, payed for and built a building through me but didn't actually build anything, is the same way God can be called creator, and Jesus the worker he uses to create. Futhermore, Jesus is never called the creator, the Bible simply states all things were created through him, but never by him, only the Father is the Originator and creator, Jesus is simply the master worker (Proverbs 22)

(1 Corinthians 8:6) "...there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him..."

The Father is Originator and the creator alone, all things are out of him but through his Son Jesus. This is not proof they are one and the same.

Sorry if I'm not making sense, I haven't read over it all, I'm both ill and tired, speak to you tomorrow.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

NWL,
Have you seen my questions regarding
Psalm 97:1-9 and Psalm 102:18-28?

In the meantime, I will answer your other posts. My electricity went out for about twenty minutes or so -- hopefully it doesn't go out again. We're having really cold weather here, and icy roads. I don't know if someone hit a telephone pole, or if a tree branch broke a wire, or what....but hopefully it doesn't go out in the midst of my replying.