There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

[Bowman]

Aren't snow days fun...?

Yes but they do in English, which we're speaking, and so too are the Bible we are using. I would've liked to given you a English written with no periods in before you had any type of Biblical knowledge and see how much you'd learn from it.

The Holy Bible was not written in English.

English is a translation of the original.

If you want to know the meaning of the original, you study the original.

Simple.

And of course it will, Jesus is the Image of God, of course they will share the same names in some cases.

Scripture?

But to say that since Jesus and the Father share the same name like wonderful or another given example is proof that they must share the name Jehovah is absurd

That they have the same name as proclaimed in scripture, trumps your assertion to the contrary.

(the fact the HS doesn't share these names should be a red flag).

Already showed Jesus' Baptism...where each person of The Trinity has the same ONE name.

Even your NWT contains this...

The Bible isn't some guessing game which we can assume things when we see fit, unless it states it you can't proclaim it.

If its so simple then why isn't there a verse which says Jesus is Jehovah which you can so easily show me?

Now that you've acknowledged that 'Wonderful' is applied to BOTH Yahweh and The Son....concord the word 'Father' in that verse...

 

[Arwen4CJ]

I'm interested to see how you believe the context is different even though Jesus stated with regard John 17 that the oneness was the same oneness they shared.

I'm going to repost something I wrote earlier in this thread because I don't want to have to retype what I wrote before:
(from post #1298)
Deuteronomy 32:39 (NASB)
[SUP]39 [/SUP]‘See now that I, I am He,
And there is no god besides Me;
It is I who put to death and give life.
I have wounded and it is I who heal,
And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Notice here that Yahweh says :
1.) He gives life
2.) It is God who puts to death
3.) that no one can deliver from His hand
4.) that there is no god besides Him.

Isaiah 43:12-14 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed,
And there was no strange god among you;
So you are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“And I am God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“Even [SUP][a][/SUP]from eternity I am He,
And there is none who can deliver out of My hand;
I act and who can reverse it?”

Again, Yahweh says this about Himself:
1.) there is none who can deliver out of His hand.
2.) He also says that from eternity, "I am He."

John 10:22-30 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; [SUP]23 [/SUP]it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. [SUP]24 [/SUP]The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long [SUP][b][/SUP]will You keep us in suspense? If You are [SUP][c][/SUP]the Christ, tell us plainly.” [SUP]25 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. [SUP]27 [/SUP]My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; [SUP]28 [/SUP]and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. [SUP]29 [/SUP][SUP][d][/SUP]My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. [SUP]30 [/SUP]I and the Father are [SUP][e][/SUP]one.”

Now, let's look at the context of John 10:22-30.
Jesus claims these things:
1.) the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me
2.) I give eternal life to them (It is I who give life -- Deuteronomy 32:39)
3.) they will never perish (It is I who put to death -- Deuteronomy 32:39)
4.) no one will snatch them out of My hand. (There is no one who can deliver from My hand Deuteronomy 32:39; there is none who can deliver out of My Hand -- Isaiah 43:13)

Why?
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
(So Jesus is essentially saying that what is true of the Father is also true of Him).

Ultimately because:
I and the Father are [SUP][e][/SUP]one.
(In other words, Jesus and the Father are the same God -- Yahweh.)

His statement wasn't "We're one because we're one in purpose." To interpret John 10:30 as you do would not be blasphemy. The Jews only believed in one God, Yahweh. Jesus was making a direct claim in John 10 that He Himself was Yahweh, just as the Father is Yahweh.

This is the context of John 10.

Well most most bibles favored by trinitrians identity of the spirit in verse 17 and 18 is that of the Lord, Jesus Christ (there is one lord).

(2 Cor 3:17,18 KJV) "...Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord..."

The Atheansian Creed, which states the trinitarian belief explicitly -- states that the Father is Lord, Jesus is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord -- but we only have one Lord.

Why?
What is true of Jehovah as a whole is also true of each of the Persons who are Him.
So it is only because the Holy Spirit is Jehovah that we can call Him Lord.

If we look at the context of 2 Corinthians 3:17-18, it is specifically referring to the Holy Spirit as Lord. Yes, Scripture elsewhere calls Jesus Lord. But here it is a reference to the Holy Spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil [SUP][e][/SUP]remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; [SUP]16 [/SUP]but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are consistently linked with one another in Scripture because they are one God. The Holy Spirit is Lord just as Jesus is Lord, and just as the Father is Lord. They are one God.

However due to the fact that this verse is linked to the same things spoken of in the OT (Veil's - Exo 34:34) with regard to Jehovah and due to other factors based on context the identity of the Spirit here is the Father of the OT.

It is referring to Jehovah, yes.....but to a specific Person of Jehovah, the Holy Spirit.

I use many different Bible, that quote which you asked about was from the NWT, note that this is not the only Bible that renders it as Jehovah. Note to that the Father is a spirit.

Thanks.

(John 4:23, 24) "...true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth... God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth...”

Agreed.

1.) YHWH
2.) YHWH

I'm off to bed soon and then have work in the morning, so might not get back to you tonight but sometime in my afternoon, good speaking to you [/FONT]

Arwen4CJ.

That's fine. Thanks for letting me know. And thanks for answering my questions regarding Psalm 97.

It's nice speaking with you, too.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

That is flawed reasoning. I for example am a Carpenter and Electrician (worker), whenever I drive past a build which is completed I usually say to friends or family, "I built that house/Flat". Now in England we also have Architects who design the build, and produce and pay for material, they however do not build anything, they don't lift a finger. Now they when driving past completed building too can say to their friends and family "I built that flat/House". Both of us are correct, we both built the building. If I was the only worker on the job and were to say "I built that house all by myself, got no help by anyone else" I wouldn't be contradicting the Architects words

If someone said, "I built that house all by myself," I would take it literally that they were claiming to have built the entire house by themselves.

The example you gave isn't the same as what God said. For example, the different people who all play different roles in building a house cannot claim that they built the whole house themselves. All they can claim is that they contributed to the building process.

When God says that He alone created all things -- then that means that He is the only Creator. Otherwise His statement would be meaningless. It would also be meaningless to say that God is the Creator...if there are things that are not Him who are doing the creating.

Likewise Jehovah is the originator of creation, he can rightfully be called the creator. Jesus too can be said to play a role in creation, why, because God through Jesus created the world (Heb 1:1,2) Does that mean that since Jehovah said he was the only creator (as in originator) that Jesus being playing a role in creation mean they are one and the same? No! The same way the Architect can say he's the creator because he designed, payed for and built a building through me but didn't actually build anything, is the same way God can be called creator, and Jesus the worker he uses to create.

God uses no modifiers about His role as Creator. He acknowledges no one else as Creator. That was the whole point of His emphasizing that in the Bible. This is the plain meaning of the texts that refer to Him as Creator.

 

[tucksma]

Stoning was reserved for blasphemy -- such as claiming to be God.

Claiming to be greater than Abraham isn't really blasphemy.....

blas·phe·my
ˈblasfəmē/
noun

• 1.
  the act or offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk.

Abraham was a sacred thing. Therefore it would be blasphemy.

 

[tucksma]

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

John 8:28
So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

John 13:19
From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He.

These are the ones about Jesus that you quoted.
First off I just want to say it is interesting that all the verses come from John. That doesn't disprove anything or prove anything, I just found it really interesting.

Soooo

8:24
I am He could refer to the savior or the Son of God.

8:28
I am He could refer to the Son of Man (which God is both Son of Man and Son of God just like we are all sons of men and called to be sons of God)

13:19
I honestly have little idea. It doesn't seem like it's talking about God, but I don't really know what it is talking about.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

NWL,

Sorry that you are not feeling well, and I hope you feel better soon.

I know that I haven't answered all of your last post....but I will wait for you to answer the Psalm 102:18-28 post first. It's important for our discussion. Thanks

 

[Arwen4CJ]

blas·phe·my
ˈblasfəmē/
noun

• 1.
  the act or offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk.

Abraham was a sacred thing. Therefore it would be blasphemy.

1
a : the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God
b : the act of claiming the attributes of deity


2
: irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable




Matthew 26:57-68 (NASB)
[SUP]57 [/SUP]Those who had seized Jesus led Him away to Caiaphas, the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were gathered together. [SUP]58 [/SUP]But Peter was following Him at a distance as far as the courtyard of the high priest, and entered in, and sat down with the [SUP][p][/SUP]officers to see the outcome.

[SUP]59 [/SUP]Now the chief priests and the whole [SUP][q][/SUP]Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus, so that they might put Him to death. [SUP]60 [/SUP]They did not find any, even though many false witnesses came forward. But later on two came forward, [SUP]61 [/SUP]and said, “This man stated, ‘I am able to destroy the [SUP][r][/SUP]temple of God and to rebuild it [SUP][s][/SUP]in three days.’” [SUP]62 [/SUP]The high priest stood up and said to Him, “Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?” [SUP]63 [/SUP]But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I [SUP][t][/SUP]adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are [SUP][u][/SUP]the Christ, the Son of God.” [SUP]64 [/SUP]Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, [SUP][v][/SUP]hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


[SUP]65 [/SUP]Then the high priest tore his [SUP][w][/SUP]robes and said, “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy;[SUP]66 [/SUP]what do you think?” They answered, “He deserves death!”

[SUP]67 [/SUP]Then they spat in His face and beat Him with their fists; and others [SUP][x][/SUP]slapped Him, [SUP]68 [/SUP]and said, “Prophesy to us, You [SUP][y][/SUP]Christ; who is the one who hit You?”


Mark 14:53-65 (NASB)

[SUP]53 [/SUP]They led Jesus away to the high priest; and all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes *gathered together. [SUP]54 [/SUP]Peter had followed Him at a distance, right into the courtyard of the high priest; and he was sitting with the [SUP][w][/SUP]officers and warming himself at the [SUP][x][/SUP]fire. [SUP]55 [/SUP]Now the chief priests and the whole [SUP][y][/SUP]Council kept trying to obtain testimony against Jesus to put Him to death, and they were not finding any. [SUP]56 [/SUP]For many were giving false testimony against Him, but their testimony was not consistent. [SUP]57 [/SUP]Some stood up and began to give false testimony against Him, saying, [SUP]58 [/SUP]“We heard Him say, ‘I will destroy this [SUP][z][/SUP]temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.’” [SUP]59 [/SUP]Not even in this respect was their testimony consistent. [SUP]60 [/SUP]The high priest stood up and came forward and questioned Jesus, saying, “Do You not answer? [SUP][aa][/SUP]What is it that these men are testifying against You?” [SUP]61 [/SUP]But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and [SUP][ab][/SUP]saying to Him, “Are You [SUP][ac][/SUP]the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” [SUP]62 [/SUP]And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” [SUP]63 [/SUP]Tearing his clothes, the high priest *said, “What further need do we have of witnesses? [SUP]64 [/SUP]You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?” And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death. [SUP]65 [/SUP]Some began to spit at Him, and [SUP][ad][/SUP]to blindfold Him, and to beat Him with their fists, and to say to Him, “Prophesy!” And the officers [SUP][ae][/SUP]received Him with [SUP][af][/SUP]slaps in the face.

John 10:31-33 (NASB)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” [SUP]33 [/SUP]The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”


Clearly the Jews understood Jesus' comments to be definition 1 b -- the act of claiming the attributes of deity. Since there is only one God (YHWH), they understood that Jesus was claiming to be Him.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

These are the ones about Jesus that you quoted.
First off I just want to say it is interesting that all the verses come from John. That doesn't disprove anything or prove anything, I just found it really interesting.

Soooo

8:24
I am He could refer to the savior or the Son of God.

Yahweh is the one and only Savior.

Calling Jesus the Son of God asserts Jesus' deity -- He is associated with the Father in a way that no other human has been or will ever be. The Jews understood that title as claiming equality with God...thus God.

8:28
I am He could refer to the Son of Man (which God is both Son of Man and Son of God just like we are all sons of men and called to be sons of God)

Likewise, Jesus' Son of God title is another title for the Messiah, and it carried with it the idea of deity.

This is clearly how the Jews understood these things by how they reacted.

The title "Son of Man" the way that Jesus used it is unique to Him --- otherwise why would Jesus have used it to refer to Himself? It would have been meaningless for Him to call Himself a son of man in the way that all men would be sons of man.

It had to mean something unique.

13:19
I honestly have little idea. It doesn't seem like it's talking about God, but I don't really know what it is talking about.

That verse has no meaning at all unless it means something unique about Jesus. It makes the most sense if Jesus is making a direct claim about His deity there.

 

[tucksma]

1
a : the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God
b : the act of claiming the attributes of deity


2
: irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable




Matthew 26:57-68 (NASB)
[SUP]57 [/SUP]Those who had seized Jesus led Him away to Caiaphas, the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were gathered together. [SUP]58 [/SUP]But Peter was following Him at a distance as far as the courtyard of the high priest, and entered in, and sat down with the [SUP][p][/SUP]officers to see the outcome.

[SUP]59 [/SUP]Now the chief priests and the whole [SUP][q][/SUP]Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus, so that they might put Him to death. [SUP]60 [/SUP]They did not find any, even though many false witnesses came forward. But later on two came forward, [SUP]61 [/SUP]and said, “This man stated, ‘I am able to destroy the [SUP][r][/SUP]temple of God and to rebuild it [SUP][s][/SUP]in three days.’” [SUP]62 [/SUP]The high priest stood up and said to Him, “Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?” [SUP]63 [/SUP]But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I [SUP][t][/SUP]adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are [SUP][u][/SUP]the Christ, the Son of God.” [SUP]64 [/SUP]Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, [SUP][v][/SUP]hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


[SUP]65 [/SUP]Then the high priest tore his [SUP][w][/SUP]robes and said, “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy;[SUP]66 [/SUP]what do you think?” They answered, “He deserves death!”

[SUP]67 [/SUP]Then they spat in His face and beat Him with their fists; and others [SUP][x][/SUP]slapped Him, [SUP]68 [/SUP]and said, “Prophesy to us, You [SUP][y][/SUP]Christ; who is the one who hit You?”


Mark 14:53-65 (NASB)

[SUP]53 [/SUP]They led Jesus away to the high priest; and all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes *gathered together. [SUP]54 [/SUP]Peter had followed Him at a distance, right into the courtyard of the high priest; and he was sitting with the [SUP][w][/SUP]officers and warming himself at the [SUP][x][/SUP]fire. [SUP]55 [/SUP]Now the chief priests and the whole [SUP][y][/SUP]Council kept trying to obtain testimony against Jesus to put Him to death, and they were not finding any. [SUP]56 [/SUP]For many were giving false testimony against Him, but their testimony was not consistent. [SUP]57 [/SUP]Some stood up and began to give false testimony against Him, saying, [SUP]58 [/SUP]“We heard Him say, ‘I will destroy this [SUP][z][/SUP]temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.’” [SUP]59 [/SUP]Not even in this respect was their testimony consistent. [SUP]60 [/SUP]The high priest stood up and came forward and questioned Jesus, saying, “Do You not answer? [SUP][aa][/SUP]What is it that these men are testifying against You?” [SUP]61 [/SUP]But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and [SUP][ab][/SUP]saying to Him, “Are You [SUP][ac][/SUP]the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” [SUP]62 [/SUP]And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” [SUP]63 [/SUP]Tearing his clothes, the high priest *said, “What further need do we have of witnesses? [SUP]64 [/SUP]You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?” And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death. [SUP]65 [/SUP]Some began to spit at Him, and [SUP][ad][/SUP]to blindfold Him, and to beat Him with their fists, and to say to Him, “Prophesy!” And the officers [SUP][ae][/SUP]received Him with [SUP][af][/SUP]slaps in the face.

John 10:31-33 (NASB)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” [SUP]33 [/SUP]The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”


Clearly the Jews understood Jesus' comments to be definition 1 b -- the act of claiming the attributes of deity. Since there is only one God (YHWH), they understood that Jesus was claiming to be Him.

In this one scenario yes, they thought he was calling himself God. Notice he didn't though.

In the other, it isn't as clear because it doesn't say he claimed to be God. In fact by saying "Before abraham I am" is not claiming to be God, only claiming to exist for tons and tons of years.

Also I am curious where do you get that stoning is just for blasphemy? I don't doubt you on that, just curious. I could see a crowd getting PRETTY mad by saying they were more important than Abraham so unless stoning is purely saved for blasphemy, I could see them stoning him out of anger.

In the scenario where Jesus says he is before Abraham, it does not say that they thought he was claiming to be God, so if stoning is saved for blasphemy, then it could be any meaning of blasphemy. Blasphemy is also having little reverence for scripture. For a man to say he was more important than the father of Christianity would be this exactly to a Jew because it would be lack of reverence for how Great he was! (In there head that is).

 

[tucksma]

Yahweh is the one and only Savior.

Calling Jesus the Son of God asserts Jesus' deity -- He is associated with the Father in a way that no other human has been or will ever be. The Jews understood that title as claiming equality with God...thus God.


Likewise, Jesus' Son of God title is another title for the Messiah, and it carried with it the idea of deity.

This is clearly how the Jews understood these things by how they reacted.

The title "Son of Man" the way that Jesus used it is unique to Him --- otherwise why would Jesus have used it to refer to Himself? It would have been meaningless for Him to call Himself a son of man in the way that all men would be sons of man.

It had to mean something unique.


That verse has no meaning at all unless it means something unique about Jesus. It makes the most sense if Jesus is making a direct claim about His deity there.

Calling Jesus the Son of God doesn't make him God at all. We are called to be Sons of God, and Sons of God refers to other men in the OT. Son of God does not mean God, or it would say God.

We are also all sons of Man. The reason it is saying son of man, is because it is specifically him. I am he is the son of man that will be lifted up.


Again 13:19 I have little understanding of, but it doesn't by any means have to be God. It doesn't seem to be saying that at all.

 

[johnluke]

God is omnipresent, so yes.

The answer "yes" was to this question, Can the 2 separate Persons in the Godhead be in 2 separate places at the same time?

Is it then through the Godly attribute of "omnipresence" that we reconcile Matthew 3:16-17 with Isaiah 45:5-6? If Jesus and God the Father and the Holy Ghost can all be in different places at the same time and still be "one" God because they are all "omnipresent" then we have found the key to reconciliation. What do you think?

 

[VCO]

Does not (three spirits like unclean frogs) come out of the mouth of the dragon, beast and false prophet as well as the three just listed

Dragon, Beast and False Prophet

Satan loves to imitate GOD. The problem with that, is now we have two generations that trust their eyes and ears, more than what the Word of GOD says. So the Antichrist will have an easy time of deceiving many with miracles that he can do via the power of Satan. Like Dave Hunt said in one of his videos from the 80s, "The problem with the majority of Christians today, is if a witch doctor walked into this Church in his war paint and feathers and tried to take over this pulpit, two of you men would promptly grab him by each arm and throw him out the front door, however if the same man came in dressed in a suite and tie, toting a Bible, most of you would listen to him all day long."

 

[VCO]

Or they through stones at him because he just called himself more important than the "father of the Jews". Abraham was regarded VERY highly by Jews and Jesus just said he was more important. (by how I interpret it) This being so, they would definitely throw stones at him.

No, that would not have been a capital offense, while Blasphemy (claiming to be GOD) was a capital offense.

 

[tucksma]

No, that would not have been a capital offense, while Blasphemy (claiming to be GOD) was a capital offense.

Blasphemy isn't just claiming to be God though, as I have stated. Also couldn't you see a group of jews stoning Jesus because of this purely out of anger? I could. He is claiming to be on a higher level than Abraham. This is the same as him saying "I am better than all of you talking to me, because I am better than Abraham" (That's how the Jews would have taken this, not what Jesus meant) That would have HIGHLY offended them, causing high amounts of anger.

So I could see them calling this blasphemy, or I could see them doing it out of pure anger.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

In this one scenario yes, they thought he was calling himself God. Notice he didn't though.

He did claim to be God -- that is exactly the point. And they understood what He was saying, and He continued to clarify it, and they continued to understand what He meant.

He was quoting a Messianic passage from the OT here, and they knew full well what it meant. It is a passage that shows the deity of the Messiah....

Daniel 7:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and [SUP][k][/SUP]a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every [SUP][l][/SUP]language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

The NIV renders it this way:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[SUP][a][/SUP] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. [SUP]14 [/SUP]He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

This passage conveys that the Messiah is more than only human....it gives Him attributes of deity. And there is only one God, so it is a declaration that the Messiah is Yahweh.

Read those verses again. Look at the way that they talk about the Messiah. Who but God could do all those things? Who but God is eternal?

In the other, it isn't as clear because it doesn't say he claimed to be God. In fact by saying "Before abraham I am" is not claiming to be God, only claiming to exist for tons and tons of years.

And if you look back at John chapter 1, you will see that in the beginning was the Word. That is really saying that the Word has existed from eternity, as the Micah verse that I quoted earlier declares.

Again -- who but God is eternal?

And the Jews clearly understood that Jesus was claiming to be God there. Look at their reaction.

But that instance was from John 8. I was talking about John 10, which was a different occasion in which they understood that Jesus was claiming to be God.

Also I am curious where do you get that stoning is just for blasphemy? I don't doubt you on that, just curious. I could see a crowd getting PRETTY mad by saying they were more important than Abraham so unless stoning is purely saved for blasphemy, I could see them stoning him out of anger.

Look at the context of that verse. Could the stoning there have been for anything other than blasphemy? Jesus wasn't committing any sin. They thought He was committing the sin of blasphemy, but it isn't blasphemy for God to claim to be God.

If they had wanted to stone Him just because they were angry, then they would be breaking the Law, as there were only certain crimes that someone could be put to death for.

In the scenario where Jesus says he is before Abraham, it does not say that they thought he was claiming to be God, so if stoning is saved for blasphemy, then it could be any meaning of blasphemy. Blasphemy is also having little reverence for scripture. For a man to say he was more important than the father of Christianity would be this exactly to a Jew because it would be lack of reverence for how Great he was! (In there head that is).

We have to use the Jewish understanding of blasphemy, because everyone in the Gospel account there was a Jew, including Jesus.

If someone claimed to be greater than Jesus it would be blasphemy because Jesus is God in the flesh.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Calling Jesus the Son of God doesn't make him God at all. We are called to be Sons of God, and Sons of God refers to other men in the OT. Son of God does not mean God, or it would say God.

Take that up with the Jews of Jesus' day. They clearly understood that it was the same as claiming to be God.

Again, Jesus' claim was unique -- otherwise there would be no reason for Jesus to call Himself that. Secondly, the way that Jesus used it was a reference back to His deity.

We are also all sons of Man. The reason it is saying son of man, is because it is specifically him. I am he is the son of man that will be lifted up.

And again, Son of Man, the way that Jesus used it, is a clear reference to Daniel 7, which is a Messianic passage that shows the Messiah's deity.

 

[Simona25]

Romans 9,5: 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

You see what Saint Paul says? Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever.
He says that Christ is God! What more do you want to open your darkened mind and heart?

You have been given enough proofs regarding Jesus Christ`s deity; you seem confortable with the lies that you have been brainwashed with that you no longer can think for yourselves; or maybe is pride that chains you in ignorance and denial, I don`t know... try to be more honest in the dialogue.
I do not understand why would someone prefer to stick with the lie and the darkeness rather than with the truth (Jesus Christ).

Please, don`t reply to this comment. Be honest with yourselves; stop using the bible to fit your sectarian doctrine; read the Bible in humbleness and pray to God to enlighten you to find the truth.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

The answer "yes" was to this question, Can the 2 separate Persons in the Godhead be in 2 separate places at the same time?

Is it then through the Godly attribute of "omnipresence" that we reconcile Matthew 3:16-17 with Isaiah 45:5-6? If Jesus and God the Father and the Holy Ghost can all be in different places at the same time and still be "one" God because they are all "omnipresent" then we have found the key to reconciliation. What do you think?

Matthew 3:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and [SUP][a][/SUP]he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and [SUP][b][/SUP]lighting on Him, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is [SUP][c][/SUP]My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”


Isaiah 45:5-6 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]“I am the LORD, and there is no other;
Besides Me there is no God.
I will [SUP][a][/SUP]gird you, though you have not known Me;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That [SUP][b][/SUP]men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
That there is no one besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other,




Matthew 3:16-17 compared with Isaiah 45:5-6 shows that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit all have to be Yahweh -- because there is no other God. He is the one and only God.

And, yes, because Yahweh is omnipresent, the three Persons can show up all together in different "forms." But individually, each Person can also be said to be omnipresent, and He is still all one God. I don't think we can really wrap our minds around how God exists or His attributes, but we do get glimpses of understanding.

God is far above us, and He exists differently from us.

We do know that there is only one God, and we also know that the three Persons are all Him...

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Blasphemy isn't just claiming to be God though, as I have stated. Also couldn't you see a group of jews stoning Jesus because of this purely out of anger? I could. He is claiming to be on a higher level than Abraham. This is the same as him saying "I am better than all of you talking to me, because I am better than Abraham" (That's how the Jews would have taken this, not what Jesus meant) That would have HIGHLY offended them, causing high amounts of anger.

Killing someone out of anger would have been murder, which would be a sin. They would have had no basis for killing Him simply because they were angry with what He said, at least according to the Law.

If you made that claim about yourself -- that you were better than everyone here, I wouldn't be angry. I would just think you are boastful and arrogant.

So I could see them calling this blasphemy, or I could see them doing it out of pure anger.

Your scenario doesn't fit with the Jewish understanding of blasphemy, nor with a Jewish understanding about the Law.

 

[tucksma]

Killing someone out of anger would have been murder, which would be a sin. They would have had no basis for killing Him simply because they were angry with what He said, at least according to the Law.

If you made that claim about yourself -- that you were better than everyone here, I wouldn't be angry. I would just think you are boastful and arrogant.


Your scenario doesn't fit with the Jewish understanding of blasphemy, nor with a Jewish understanding about the Law.

I agree it would have been a sin. Who doesn't sin though?

You are also only getting the Jewish understanding of blasphemy from one situation.