There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

Arwen4CJ · Jan 29, 2014

NWL said:

Actually, the Bible does...

John 1:1-3 (NASB)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [SUP]2 [/SUP][SUP][a][/SUP]He was in the beginning with God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

Colossians 1:15-20 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP][SUP][w][/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. [SUP]16[/SUP]For [SUP][x][/SUP]by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. [SUP]17[/SUP]He [SUP][y][/SUP]is before all things, and in Him all things [SUP][z][/SUP]hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For [SUP][aa][/SUP]it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the [SUP][ab][/SUP]fullness to dwell in Him, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in [SUP][ac][/SUP]heaven.

Pay special attention to this next passage:

Hebrews 1:1-12 (NASB)

1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, [SUP]2 [/SUP][SUP][a][/SUP]in these last days has spoken to us [SUP][b][/SUP]in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the [SUP][c][/SUP]world. [SUP]3 [/SUP][SUP][d][/SUP]And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and [SUP][e][/SUP]upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, [SUP]4 [/SUP]having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?

And again,
“I will be a Father to Him
And He shall be a Son to Me”?

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And [SUP][f][/SUP]when He again brings the firstborn into [SUP][g][/SUP]the world, He says,

“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And of the angels He says,
“Who makes His angels winds,
And His ministers a flame of fire.”

[SUP]8[/SUP]But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of [SUP][h][/SUP]His kingdom.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And,
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”

Do you recognize Hebrews 1:6 and Hebrews 1:10-12? If you don't, you should....because, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the author of Hebrews applied Psalm 102:18-28 and Psalm 97:1-9 to Jesus. When I asked you about these passages directly, you gave the correct answer....they are about YHWH. So, if the author of Hebrews, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, applied these to Jesus, then the author of Hebrews was calling Jesus YHWH.

Therefore, Jesus must be YHWH, just as the Father is YHWH.

This makes no sense unless both the Father and Jesus are YHWH.

Arwen4CJ · Jan 29, 2014

NWL said:

No.....because that statement, as worded, wouldn't be true. He could only claim that he designed it, but he couldn't claim that every single iPhone was put together by his own hands.

The term created implies every single step of the process, including the origin of the idea and the plans for it. Your analogy here doesn't fit with that idea.

But if God is the only Creator, then both the Father and Son have to be Him. Otherwise you have something that is not God taking part in the actual creation process, and then God could not legitimately claim that He is the only Creator.

Actually, that makes both the Father and Jesus Creator and God. As I've already shown, the author of Hebrews used passages about YHWH to point to Jesus' deity. Yes, everything was made through Jesus, and that is only possible if Jesus is also YHWH.

And I showed you that it also applies to Jesus....

Colossians 1:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For [SUP][x][/SUP]by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Hebrews 1:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And,

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,And the heavens are the works of Your hands;

How can these verses be true unless Jesus is also the Creator?

NWL · Jan 29, 2014

Arwen4CJ said:

You have completely missed the point I was trying to make, that simply because someone created something doesn't make him the "Creator", you really aren't trying. Remember the Steve Jobs illustration, there is no other "creator" of the Apple Iphone other than Steve Jobs, not even the single employee can say he was the "Creator", both can rightfully say they created the phone, but only Steve Jobs can say he was the Creator of the phone since it was him who designed it. So again you will not find a single verse that says Jesus is Creator, however you will with the Father. No doubt there will be passages which read Jesus created all things but this can be seen because God created things through Jesus, but just because Jesus played a role in creation doesn't imply he is the Creator or Originator.

One simple question for you Arwen4CJ, based on Hebrews 1:1,2, and also one non scripture based one.

1.) Who is the Originator of creation, or in other words who is the ultimate source of creation in the passage Hebrews 1:1,2

2.) If I obtained all the components needed to make a Iphone and made it into a working phone (after the Iphone had already been designed and made), could I claim I was the Creator and Originator of the Apple Iphone? If no then why not?

(Hebrews 1:1, 2) "...God...has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things..."

Your assuming things based on face value when you say Jesus must be Jehovah simply because they seem to have the same statements said about them. First of yes your correct, Proskyneo (Whether Godly worship or obeisance like) given to Jesus in Hebrews 1:6 can be applied to Jesus even though its in regards to Jehovah in Psalms 97:7, this is because all Proskyneo talked of in that account is all directed to Jehovah the Father. That very same principle can be seen in the way we pray, we pray to the Father but yet through Jesus, this is whats happening in Hebrews 1:6.

The fact the type of Proskyneo given to Jesus is really not true worship to Jesus but rather worship through him to the Father, can be phone in the book of Philippians.

(Philippians 2:10, 11) "...so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father..."

(John 14:6) '...Jesus said to him: "No one comes to the Father except through me"...'

Regarding Hebrews 1:10-12 with relation to Psalms 102:25,26 again your merely assuming things. Back to the Steve Jobs illustration, (this would work better if I waited for you to answer my question by anyways) could Steve Jobs say he made all Apple Iphones today even though he hasn't actually physically made any? Of course because he made the phone through that single employee. Likewise the Father layed the foundation of the Earth, how did he do so? Through Jesus Christ is how (Heb 1:1,2) Thus, did Jesus by means of Jehovah also lay the foundation of the Earth? Yes! Both did, since this is the case the verse in Psalms can be applied to Jesus because its describing the same action, both the Father created those things. Does the fact both Steve Jobs and the single employee both created the iphone imply that single employee was Steve Jobs, of course not. Likewise the same applies with regard to Jesus and Jehovah.

I can see our discussions are stalling based on the illustration I have given, please would you answer the two questions I posed so that we can try and reslove that issue before further discussion. much thanks

Arwen4CJ · Jan 29, 2014

NWL said:

Back at Genesis 1, it shows that God is the only Creator. God created everything. It doesn't say something else followed his orders or designs, or whatever argument you want to use that denies Jesus' deity.

God says He alone created all things.

Since Hebrews 1:1-2 cannot be viewed apart from its context of all of Hebrews chapter 1, and all of the book of Hebrews -- I would have to say that YHWH is the ultimate source of creation, which includes both the Father and the Son. The whole triune God is the Creator and participated in doing the creating.

No, you wouldn't be its creator.

Hebrews 1:8-12 (NASB)
[SUP]8[/SUP]But of the Son He says,

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of [SUP][h][/SUP]His kingdom.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And,
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”

Colossians 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For [SUP][x][/SUP]by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He [SUP][y][/SUP]is before all things, and in Him all things [SUP][z][/SUP]hold together.

Jesus is clearly the Creator in the same way that the Father is Creator. Both are Yahweh.

Yes, I take the Bible at face value.

Don't you find it strange that everything that is true of Jehovah is also true of Jesus...if Jesus isn't Jehovah, too? The author of Hebrews, by including those verses from the OT was making a point, and was saying that those passages in the OT were about Jesus. Since we know that they were about Jehovah, then we know that Jesus is also Jehovah.

To get any other meaning out of this text is to deny the clear meaning of the text.

Why would we be able to pray through Jesus if He isn't Yahweh? Anyway, Hebrews 1:6 is about worship, not about praying. Again, the author of Hebrews was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and was applying Psalm 97 to Jesus, and was saying that worship would be directed towards Jesus.

You brought up Philippians 2. Wonderful. I was going to bring that back up in relation to Isaiah 45. So let's examine this again.

Isaiah 45:21-25 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together.
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“They will say of Me, ‘Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“In the LORD all the offspring of IsraelWill be justified and will glory.”

Philippians 2:1-11 (NASB)
2 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any [SUP][a][/SUP]affection and compassion, [SUP]2 [/SUP]make my joy complete [SUP][b][/SUP]by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Do nothing [SUP][c][/SUP]from [SUP][d][/SUP]selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; [SUP]4 [/SUP]do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Have this attitude [SUP][e][/SUP]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,[SUP]6 [/SUP]who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [SUP][f][/SUP]grasped, [SUP]7 [/SUP]but [SUP][g][/SUP]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [SUP][h][/SUP]on a cross. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, [SUP]10 [/SUP]so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, [SUP]11 [/SUP]and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Again, when I asked you the questions about Isaiah 45, you gave me the correct answer.
Yahweh said that every knee would bow to Him and that every tongue would swear allegiance to Him, and that they would say, "only in YHWH are righteousness and strength, and this occurs in a passage that declares that YHWH is the only God, over and over and over again. Furthermore, it is in YHWH that all the offspring of Israel would be justified and will glory.

Yet in Philippians 2, we have Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, say that every knee would bow to Jesus, and that every tongue would confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.....and it is through Jesus' death on the cross that we are saved.....thus, it is in Jesus that we are justified and will glory.

If Jesus were not YHWH, Philippians 2 could not happen.

And unless Jesus is YHWH, John 14:6 makes no sense. It also implies that Jesus is much more than just human. Think about that claim.

That is the plain meaning of what the author of Hebrews means. It's the only meaning that makes sense in the context in which Psalm 102 was quoted.

You come to Scripture assuming that Jesus is not Jehovah. But the Bible identifies Jesus as God over and over and over again. Since there is only one God, Jehovah, then that has to mean that Jesus is also Jehovah. It has to mean that there are at least two Persons who are Jehovah, the Father and Jesus.

If you continue to deny that Jesus is Jehovah, then you have to explain away all references to Jesus as God.....and Scripture plainly calls Him God. So if Jesus isn't Jehovah, and yet is God, then you have to conclude that Jesus is either a false god or that He is some sort of demi-god. But He can't be a demi-god because Isaiah 45 and many other passages say there is no other god. We also know that Jesus is not a false god......so where does that leave us?

It means that Jesus must be Jehovah. The Father is obviously Jehovah, too. That means that Jehovah is at least two Persons.

I really wish that you could see that Jesus is Jehovah just as the Father is. Jesus is not a demi-god, and He is not a false god.

Arwen4CJ · Jan 29, 2014

More Scripture that shows that Jesus is Jehovah, just as the Father is:

John 1:1-23 (NASB)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [SUP]2 [/SUP][SUP][a][/SUP]He was in the beginning with God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. [SUP]4 [/SUP]In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. [SUP]5 [/SUP]The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [SUP][b][/SUP]comprehend it.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]There [SUP][c][/SUP]came a man sent from God, whose name was John. [SUP]7 [/SUP][SUP][d][/SUP]He came [SUP][e][/SUP]as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. [SUP]8 [/SUP][SUP][f][/SUP]He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]There was the true Light [SUP][g][/SUP]which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. [SUP]10 [/SUP]He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. [SUP]11 [/SUP]He came to His [SUP][h][/SUP]own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, [SUP]13 [/SUP]who were [SUP][i][/SUP]born, not of [SUP][j][/SUP]blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Word became flesh, and [SUP][k][/SUP]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [SUP][l][/SUP]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. [SUP]15 [/SUP]John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me [SUP][m][/SUP]has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” [SUP]16 [/SUP]For of His fullness [SUP][n][/SUP]we have all received, and [SUP][o][/SUP]grace upon grace. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth [SUP][p][/SUP]were realized through Jesus Christ. [SUP]18 [/SUP]No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]This is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” [SUP]20 [/SUP]And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not [SUP][q][/SUP]the Christ.” [SUP]21 [/SUP]They asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” And he *said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” [SUP]22 [/SUP]Then they said to him, “Who are you, so that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?” [SUP]23 [/SUP]He said, “I am a voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way of the Lord,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.”

I asked you about Isaiah 40, so let's look at that again:
Isaiah 40:3-6 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]A voice [SUP][d][/SUP]is calling,
“Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness;
Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“Let every valley be lifted up,
And every mountain and hill be made low;
And let the rough ground become a plain,
And the rugged terrain a broad valley;
[SUP]5[/SUP][SUP][e][/SUP]Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
And all flesh will see it together;
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]A voice says, “Call out.”

Again, this is another case where a NT author, in this case John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, applied an OT verse that was about YHWH to Jesus. Clearly, John was claiming that Jesus was YHWH.

tucksma · Jan 29, 2014

The concepts being debated here aren't really trinity v non trinity.
Its more Is Jesus god or a representative of God.

NWL looks at him like a representative, as do I. Just as all the angels are.
You all don't agree with that concept.

Just clearing things up for those who are trying to follow.

(as in people reading this, but not partaking in it)

johnluke · Jan 29, 2014

tucksma said:

Jesus is a representative of God the Father, you are right. But Jesus is also a God in his own right.
See Hebrews 1:8-9
8 But unto the Son, He (God the Father) saith, "thy throne O God is for ever and ever, a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy Kingdom".
9 Thou has loved righteousness and hated iniquity, therefore God (God the Father), even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Even God the Father calls His Son Jesus God. And God the Father refers to Himself as the God of Jesus.

See John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her (Mary at the garden tomb) touch me not for I am not yet ascended to my Father, but go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God and your God.

Jesus is not God the Father, but is a God himself per his Father, God the Father. It is hard to argue with God the Father, especially when he is quoted in His scripture.

Bowman · Jan 29, 2014

Re: Aren't snow days fun...?

NWL said:

The study of the original languages is the most basic prerequisite for proper translation.

No Biblical Manuscripts support the NWT....hence, your mindset...

This is the Biblical claim...not mine.

You quoted no such scripture...

How many mere 'imitators' of God are called Theos?

This verse neither denies Jesus' deity nor the Trinity.

Do you still not yet know what you are against...?

What Biblical Hebrew rule of grammar do you base your assertion upon?

There are very few things in the NT that were not first recorded on the OT.

Matt 18.19 utilizes the same formula as the OT Aaronic blessing in which the NAME Yahweh is repeated THREE times.

The Father and Son have the same name....not that they are each other...but that they are the same One God.

GreenNnice · Jan 29, 2014

johnluke said:

Don't you see where you are finding God is God is God in your own logical explanation? That God is Jesus, that both are on the throne, but they are one God, they are both on different thrones, this is true, but, they are one God. Jesus REALLY existed, He really is a man who is God who is with the Father now, sitting 'at His right hand.' Jesus showed us the way to Him on Earth, the way to The Way, who is Himself

There is ONLY one God, it is God, but, Jesus, by your own verse there, IS God.

We are ONLY to worship one God, not two, not three. One.

ColonelClaus · Jan 29, 2014

There is none so blind as he who will not see. There is none so deaf as he who will not hear.
john spoke of the word being with God and being God.
at the burning bush, the LORD told Moses His name. "I AM" or "YHWH"
Jesus invoked the same name.. "Before Abraham was, I AM"
they tried to stone Him.

Arwen4CJ · Jan 29, 2014

tucksma said:

Yes, the issue being debated are about the trinity vs. non trinity.

You are right in saying that it is specifically about Jesus being God or a representative of God -- but this is part of the larger Trinity vs. Non-Trinity debate. And don't forget that there is at least one person in this thread who claims a different non-Trinitiarin position -- that of there being three gods.

Ultimately, it comes down to whether or not the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all YHWH, whether only one is YHWH, and how many gods there are.

Those who hold to Trinitarianism and Arianism believe that there is only one God. Where Trinitarians and Arians differ is over who is YHWH. Arians claim that YHWH is only the Father. Those who believe in the Trinity believe that all three Persons are YHWH.

Those who hold to tritheism and Trinitarianism believe that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit each have full deity. Where the two views differ is over how many gods there are, and the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Trinitarians claim that the three Persons are one God -- all YHWH. Tri-theists insist that the Persons are each their own god, and that only one of them is YHWH. They claim that the Father is a different god from Jesus, and that the Holy Spirit is a different god from the other two.

Correct, we believe that Jesus is YHWH, just as the Father is....not simply a representative.

Read Hebrews 1 and you will see that Jesus is above the angels.

Yeah, good idea.

Arwen4CJ · Jan 29, 2014

johnluke said:

Again.....YHWH declares that He is the one and only God. This means that if the Father is God, and Jesus is God, then they both have to be YHWH.

And the Father does indeed refer to Jesus as "God." We have instances of one Person of the Trinity referring to the other Persons as God....and rightfully so. But there is only one God, and He is YHWH. He is simply triune.

You keep refusing to acknowledge the unity of the Persons as being one God in being and essence.

Arwen4CJ · Jan 29, 2014

Re: Aren't snow days fun...?

In regard to the Isaiah 9:6-7 passage, it's helpful to consider these things:
1.) The Messiah is directly called God
2.) All the other names that He is called also point to His deity, such as being eternal
3.) YHWH acknowledges no other gods -- so for the Messiah to be called God in Scripture is the same as saying that He is YHWH. No one can be acknowledge as God in any sense unless the Person is YHWH.

The point is that YHWH is the one and only God

If Jesus is God in any sense, then He has to be YHWH -- by YHWH's own declaration of there being no other gods but Him.

Jesus can't be a demi-god, and He cannot be "a god," and He cannot be "a God." YHWH recognizes no others.

tucksma · Jan 29, 2014

Arwen4CJ said:

Yes, the issue being debated are about the trinity vs. non trinity.

You are right in saying that it is specifically about Jesus being God or a representative of God -- but this is part of the larger Trinity vs. Non-Trinity debate. And don't forget that there is at least one person in this thread who claims a different non-Trinitiarin position -- that of there being three gods.

Ultimately, it comes down to whether or not the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all YHWH, whether only one is YHWH, and how many gods there are.

Those who hold to Trinitarianism and Arianism believe that there is only one God. Where Trinitarians and Arians differ is over who is YHWH. Arians claim that YHWH is only the Father. Those who believe in the Trinity believe that all three Persons are YHWH.

Those who hold to tritheism and Trinitarianism believe that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit each have full deity. Where the two views differ is over how many gods there are, and the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Trinitarians claim that the three Persons are one God -- all YHWH. Tri-theists insist that the Persons are each their own god, and that only one of them is YHWH. They claim that the Father is a different god from Jesus, and that the Holy Spirit is a different god from the other two.

Correct, we believe that Jesus is YHWH, just as the Father is....not simply a representative.

Read Hebrews 1 and you will see that Jesus is above the angels.

Yeah, good idea.

I agree that Jesus is above the angels. We don't have an issue there

Also I know it is trinity v non trinity, I was simply trying to better explain NWL's and my position.

VCO · Jan 29, 2014

NWL said:

You have completely missed the point I was trying to make, that simply because someone created something doesn't make him the "Creator", you really aren't trying. Remember the Steve Jobs illustration, there is no other "creator" of the Apple Iphone other than Steve Jobs, not even the single employee can say he was the "Creator", both can rightfully say they created the phone, but only Steve Jobs can say he was the Creator of the phone since it was him who designed it. So again you will not find a single verse that says Jesus is Creator, however you will with the Father. No doubt there will be passages which read Jesus created all things but this can be seen because God created things through Jesus, but just because Jesus played a role in creation doesn't imply he is the Creator or Originator.

One simple question for you Arwen4CJ, based on Hebrews 1:1,2, and also one non scripture based one.

1.) Who is the Originator of creation, or in other words who is the ultimate source of creation in the passage Hebrews 1:1,2

2.) If I obtained all the components needed to make a Iphone and made it into a working phone (after the Iphone had already been designed and made), could I claim I was the Creator and Originator of the Apple Iphone? If no then why not?

(Hebrews 1:1, 2) "...God...has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things..."

Your assuming things based on face value when you say Jesus must be Jehovah simply because they seem to have the same statements said about them. First of yes your correct, Proskyneo (Whether Godly worship or obeisance like) given to Jesus in Hebrews 1:6 can be applied to Jesus even though its in regards to Jehovah in Psalms 97:7, this is because all Proskyneo talked of in that account is all directed to Jehovah the Father. That very same principle can be seen in the way we pray, we pray to the Father but yet through Jesus, this is whats happening in Hebrews 1:6.

The fact the type of Proskyneo given to Jesus is really not true worship to Jesus but rather worship through him to the Father, can be phone in the book of Philippians.

(Philippians 2:10, 11) "...so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father..."

(John 14:6) '...Jesus said to him: "No one comes to the Father except through me"...'

Regarding Hebrews 1:10-12 with relation to Psalms 102:25,26 again your merely assuming things. Back to the Steve Jobs illustration, (this would work better if I waited for you to answer my question by anyways) could Steve Jobs say he made all Apple Iphones today even though he hasn't actually physically made any? Of course because he made the phone through that single employee. Likewise the Father layed the foundation of the Earth, how did he do so? Through Jesus Christ is how (Heb 1:1,2) Thus, did Jesus by means of Jehovah also lay the foundation of the Earth? Yes! Both did, since this is the case the verse in Psalms can be applied to Jesus because its describing the same action, both the Father created those things. Does the fact both Steve Jobs and the single employee both created the iphone imply that single employee was Steve Jobs, of course not. Likewise the same applies with regard to Jesus and Jehovah.

I can see our discussions are stalling based on the illustration I have given, please would you answer the two questions I posed so that we can try and reslove that issue before further discussion. much thanks

I repeat, the Father's primary function has always been to WILL what He wants done, in street language, HE IS THE SHOT CALLER.

The Son's primary function has ALWAYS BEEN to do the will of the Father.

Despite their different primary functions within the Godhead, they REMAIN the SAME AND ONLY GOD.

GreenNnice · Jan 30, 2014

tucksma said:

Jesus IS God, tuck, and, the Holy Spirit is not some representative of God either, He is the One, the Truth, The Way, the God of the universe, in spirit form, for "God is spirit," Scripture does tell us. God can do anything He wants, tuck, including be God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. And, He is that, all of them, all of those, all of that, that's 'all' of Him

Not to be mean, tuck, just saying, Jesus is not a representative of God, the word 'some' is there to, hopefully, place emphasis on the fact that Jesus is not just some other being, He's the one, living , true, God, and, He, too, sits at the right hand throne of the Father in heaven right now. He is God. He is Jesus. He is Him

VCO · Jan 30, 2014

NWL said:

Whose reasoning is flawed ? ? ?

Colossians 1:16-19 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For God was pleased ⌊to have⌋ all His fullness dwell in Him,

NWL · Jan 30, 2014

Arwen4CJ said:

Many time in scripture it is spoken that Jehovah has done things alone when in actual fact he hasn't at, when the scriptures say he alone has done something its expressing that he God is the cause of the thing happening or Originator of the event, this is Bibilcal fact my friend.

Jehovah indicates that he “alone” acted when He exacted retribution upon Edom. But, it was not Jehovah who personally punished these people but he used men as agents. So, is there a contradiction here? Or does it just mean that Jehovah as the SOURCE of retribution!?

Deut 32:12 says: “Jehovah alone kept leading him.” Was Jehovah the “only one” leading Israel? Ex.32:32-34 says that Jehovah used Moses and an angel to lead Israel! (cf. 1Sam.9:16; 13:13-14; 2Sam;5:1-2). Again, there is no contradiction here. Jehovah used his representatives to lead his people, but He “alone” was the SOURCE of direction!

And again at Ezek 36:33, 36 Jehovah says “I myself” will build the cities of Israel after the exile. Did He personally rebuild them or did His people do the work at His direction?

If i applied your same flawed reasoning that since Jehovah alone created the world to the above then, the people who actually punished Edom are also YHWH, so to are Moses and the Angel that led Isreal through the wilderness, as well as the builders of the cities of Israel since Jehovah alone was the one who also did those things just mentioned. The fact that your reasoning is flawed is basic to see!

So I have another simple question for you, 1.) Based on your reasoning that Jehovah alone created the world implying that Jesus too is YHWH (by your reasoning, since he too created the world) then do you admit that Moses and an Angel is YHWH, Israelite builders are YHWH, as well as the actual people who punished Israel are YHWH since scripture states YHWH alone in fact did those things?

(By you answer it will be clear for all to see whether or not Jesus is YHWH based on your "creation account reasoning" between God and Jesus)

This again is false reasoning, your missing a basic fact whilst reading Hebrews 1, that the God in Heb 1:1,2 cannot be the Truine God. From a Trinitrians point of view YHWH/God is The Father/Son/HS, if therefore one of those person is talked of apart from Godbut in regards to God then that God must be the person(s) who isn't being spoken of within the Trinity. For example we have the scripture "he [Jesus] sat down at the right hand of God" (Mark 16:19) Now that God in this scripture based on context clearly isn't the Truine God, the Fatther/Son/HS other wise Jesus would be sitting at the right hand of himself, therefore we conclude that the God mentioned in mark 16:19 is either in regard to either/both the Father or/and Holy Spirit (actual fact the Father).

And this is my point, Jesus in Hebrews 1:1,2 is being spoken of apart from the God being mentioned, just like Mark 16:19, if you want to claim that the God being spoken of in Heb 1:1,2 then trinitrians have all sorts of problems, such as; It would imply that Jesus appointed himself (see the below scripture) and that Jesus created through himself (see the below scripture). However from scripture we know that it was the Father who appointed Jesus (John 17:2), and the Father that created through Jesus (1 Corin 8:6), therefore it is clear to see that the God in Hebrews 1:1,2 is in fact God the Father, the same thing can be more so in the book of Hebrews.

(Hebrews 1:1, 2 Arwen4CJ Rendering) "...God [the Father/Son/HS], who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he [the F/S/HS] appointed [him] heir of all things, and through whom he [the F/S/HS] made the systems of things [through him]..." (all the additions are mine so people can get a better understand of the identity of "God" in the verse -with the "God" mentioned being the truine God as assumed by Arwen4CJ- in relation to the apparent context)

NWL said:

Exactly, now we're getting somewhere. Just because I create something doesn't necessarily imply I am it's designer originator, likewise we have Jesus (who's never called by the title Creator) who God (Heb 1:1,2) has created all things through, now just because Jesus was used to create doesn't imply he's the creator, but rather the instrument God the Father used to create all things through, it's so simple.

You've been quoting the references of Hebrews all this time but yet you haven't described of this particular verse. Hebrews 1:8-12 is quoted from psalms 45:6-7 which is in reference to a then Israelite King (possibly King Solomon), which is prophetically linked to the Messiah, it reads;

(Psalms 45:6-7 NIV) "...Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy..."

Please remember the verse is speaking about an Israelite King. The trinitarian New American Standard Bible (NASB) the one you've used to quote Hebrews , Reference Edition, explains in a footnote for Psalms 45:1, “Probably refers to Solomon as a type of Christ.” So, according to this trinitarian Bible, the words of Psalms 45:6, although figuratively referring to Jesus, were literally applied to an ancient Israelite king (?King Solomon?)

So if Ps. 45:6 is properly translated, “your throne, O God ...” then that ancient Israelite King (Solomon?) was also literally called “O God” (or “O god”?) Other footnotes say the following; “The Hebrew king was called ... ‘God,’ not in the polytheistic sense common among the ancient pagans, but as meaning ‘godlike’ or ‘taking the place of God’.” (New American Bible, St. Joseph Edition, 1970).Furthermore the NAB goes on to explain that others Bible translations have translated this verse as, “Your throne is the throne of God” and refers us to 1 Chron. 29:23 “where Solomon’s throne is referred to as the throne of the YHWH.” Thus many translations have rendered Heb 1:8 as such:

(Dr. James Moffatt - One of the Best Trinitrain biblical scholars) “...God is thy throne for ever and ever...”

(An American Translation [SG]) “...God is your throne....”

(And The Bible in Living English [Byington]): “...God is your throne....”

"God is your throne" doesn't contradict the proclamation to the king in Psalms. Also the the very fact that you believe verse 9 in Hebrews 1, which reads "Therefore God" is in reference to Jesus shows you lack understand, as how can Jesus be that God and yet have a God above him. The verse is saying "Therefore God [the Father], who is [Your God]" which in short can read "Therefore God, Your God".

This is because Jesus copies the Father, therefore he is like his Father image, he is the image of God, don't you find it strange that the author(s) of Hebrews didn't simply state that the OT YHWH was YHWH, don't you find it weird that your texts which you believe to prove your points are either disputed verse (Heb 1:8) or are based on bad reasoning (deut 32:12, Heb 1:1,2);

(John 5:19) "...The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner..."

If a Dad enters a race and his son also enters the race and both become world famous runners, both get the same title "Great runners" should we conclude they share any type of identity, futhermore if that dad become and a "Great Scientist", "Great husband", "Great Athlete" and his Son copied him "in like manner" would we again assume they must share the same identity, or is it rather the Son is imitating the Father so much so that they simply have the same titles, not identity.

With regard to what you wrote about all things bending their knees to Jesus and people praying to God through Jesus I simply ask you;

2.) To whose Glory are people bowing to, Jesus of the Fathers?
3.) By praying through Jesus to the Father whom are we praying to Jesus or the Father?

As I have written a lot and do not want to over burden you please so might not of covered everything you said, please reply to my three questions so that we can carry on our discussion.

NWL · Jan 30, 2014

VCO said:

"by him" (en) in verse 16 is a inaccurate description, other translations acknowledge the "en" should translated "through". The last part of this same verse further confirms this proper rendering of the usage of the instrumental en of the first part. Yes, “For through or by means of (en) him all things were created” (Col. 1:16 a) is made certain by the concluding part: “All things were created through [dia] him….” (Col. 1:16c) – NKJV.

Even with "en" written as "by" in beginning of the verse doesn't imply he was the source of creation, you're simply reading that thought into scripture. Also If the verse also showed Jesus to be the Originator of all creation then it would contradict Hebrews 1:1,2 which shows God the Father is the Originator, creating things through Jesus"

NWL · Jan 30, 2014

VCO said:

So what's your point in reference to what I said, how does that fact disclaim anything I've said, care to explain friend?

There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

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