There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

[Arwen4CJ]

For NWL -- I'm posting this again because I'm afraid it will get lost in the dialogue, and it's important to me that this post gets answered by him:

Psalm 102:18-28 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP][SUP][r][/SUP]This will be written for the generation to come,
[SUP][s][/SUP]That a people yet to be created [SUP][t][/SUP]may praise [SUP][u][/SUP]the LORD.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For He looked down from His holy height;
From heaven the LORD gazed [SUP][v][/SUP]upon the earth,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]To hear the groaning of the prisoner,
To set free [SUP][w][/SUP]those who were doomed to death,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]That men may tell of the name of the LORD in Zion
And His praise in Jerusalem,
[SUP]22 [/SUP]When the peoples are gathered together,
And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.


[SUP]23 [/SUP]He has weakened my strength in the way;
He has shortened my days.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the [SUP][x][/SUP]midst of my days,
Your years are throughout all generations.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“[SUP][y][/SUP]Even they will perish, but You endure;
And all of them will wear out like a garment;
Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]“But You are [SUP][z][/SUP]the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“The children of Your servants will continue,
And their [SUP][aa][/SUP]descendants will be established before You.”



Please use only the text from Psalm 102 to answer these questions:
1.) Who is this passage referring to?
2.) Who founded the earth?

 

[tucksma]

1. 
   [*=left]slander, detraction, speech injurious, to another's good name
   
   [*=left]impious and reproachful speech injurious to divine majesty
   
   Thats the word's definition that turns into blasphemy. The first one would fit with what I am saying perfectly. Jesus slandering Abraham's good name in the perspective of the Jew.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

I agree it would have been a sin. Who doesn't sin though?

You are also only getting the Jewish understanding of blasphemy from one situation.

They had no other charge against Jesus -- only the claim that He blasphemed.

They never once tried to stone Him for anything else. They were unable to accuse Him of anything else in His whole trial.

 

[tucksma]

Saying he is over abraham IS blasphemy, in the view of the Jew.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

1. 
   [*=left]slander, detraction, speech injurious, to another's good name
   [*=left]impious and reproachful speech injurious to divine majesty
   
   Thats the word's definition that turns into blasphemy. The first one would fit with what I am saying perfectly. Jesus slandering Abraham's good name in the perspective of the Jew.

Blasphemy - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Look at definition 1 b there.

If the passage from John 8 meant what you said it meant, then why did Jesus say "I am," rather than, "I existed," or whatever.

 

[tucksma]

1. 
   [*=left]slander, detraction, speech injurious, to another's good name
   [*=left]impious and reproachful speech injurious to divine majesty
   
   

Well this is the original word that gets translated as blasphemy. The first definition fits what I am saying.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Saying he is over abraham IS blasphemy, in the view of the Jew.

It wouldn't be blasphemy in the truest sense of the word, nor does it seem to make sense with Jesus' choice of words.

Let's look at some of Jesus' other I AM statements....

John 6:35 (NASB)
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

John 6:48
I am the bread of life.

John 10:7
[SUP]7 [/SUP]So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

John 14:6
Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

Matthew 24:27
But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Take courage, it is I; do not be afraid.”

Mark 6:50
for they all saw Him and were terrified. But immediately He spoke with them and *said to them, “Take courage; it is I, do not be afraid.”

John 6:20
But He *said to them, “It is I; do not be afraid.”

And yes, the Matthew and Mark and the John 6:20 passages are all instances where Jesus is calling Himself the I AM with the words "It is I." Why do I say this? Because my theologically liberal NT professor admitted this in class, apparently because of how it is rendered in the Greek there? But even he was able to admit when passages declared Jesus' deity, even though he didn't believe in Jesus' deity.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Well this is the original word that gets translated as blasphemy. The first definition fits what I am saying.

At Jesus' trial, nothing stuck except for Jesus' claim to be the Messiah/to be God in the flesh stuck. He was charged for committing blasphemy.

If Jesus really meant that He was simply better than Abraham, then don't you think He would have been charged for this? But there was no mention we have about that in the Gospels during the trial. Therefore, the Jews did not interpret it the way that you did.

 

[johnluke]

then who is all power full is it the father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit

All 3 are "all powerful". All 3 make up the Godhead, and the Godhead is "all powerful".

 

[johnluke]

Yahweh (Jehovah) is not only the Father.

The Father is Jehovah, but so is Jesus, and so is the Holy Spirit.

If Jesus weren't Jehovah, He would be a second God. But we know that there is only one God (Jehovah). Therefore Jesus has to be Jehovah, too. The same with the Holy Spirit.

Let me show you a scripture that ties Jesus Christ to the Israelites and Moses. If we can tie him to them, then we can tie his name (Jesus) to their God's name (Yahweh/Jehovah).

See 1 Corinthians 10:1-9
I'm going to paraphrase instead of typing the whole scripture.

All our fathers passed through the sea (Israel coming out of Egypt)
Were all baptized unto Moses
Did all eat the same spiritual meat (manna)
Did all drink the same spiritual drink, for they drank of that spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock was Christ.
But God was not pleased with many of them and they were overthrown in the wilderness.
We should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.
We should not be idolaters as some of them were.
We should not commit fornications as some of them did and fell in 1 day 20,000.
Let us not tempt Christ as some of them also tempted and were destroyed by serpents.
Jesus is Yahweh/Jehovah of the Old Testament. He is the God that brought the Israelites out of Egypt. He was their protection, he is the one that spoke to Moses on Mt. Sinai, he gave the law, he administered justice, he created the pillar of fire by night and was in the cloud by day to lead this stiff-necked people for 40 years through the wilderness. Yahweh/Jehovah was the name of their God.

Paul is telling us in 1 Corinthians 10 that this same Yahweh/Jehovah who was with the Israelites and Moses came to earth and was given the name of Jesus and died for our sins, that we may live. This scripture answers the question, is there a scripture that says Jesus is Yahweh/Jehovah. The answer is yes. This scripture says that Jesus was the God of the Israelites, and the God of the Israelites was Yahweh/Jehovah.

We also know that Jesus is not God the Father, so if Jesus is Yahweh/Jehovah and Jesus is not God the Father, then Yahweh/Jehovah is not God the Father.

 

[johnluke]

For NWL -- I'm posting this again because I'm afraid it will get lost in the dialogue, and it's important to me that this post gets answered by him:

Psalm 102:18-28 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP][SUP][r][/SUP]This will be written for the generation to come,
[SUP][s][/SUP]That a people yet to be created [SUP][t][/SUP]may praise [SUP][u][/SUP]the LORD.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For He looked down from His holy height;
From heaven the LORD gazed [SUP][v][/SUP]upon the earth,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]To hear the groaning of the prisoner,
To set free [SUP][w][/SUP]those who were doomed to death,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]That men may tell of the name of the LORD in Zion
And His praise in Jerusalem,
[SUP]22 [/SUP]When the peoples are gathered together,
And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.


[SUP]23 [/SUP]He has weakened my strength in the way;
He has shortened my days.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the [SUP][x][/SUP]midst of my days,
Your years are throughout all generations.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“[SUP][y][/SUP]Even they will perish, but You endure;
And all of them will wear out like a garment;
Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]“But You are [SUP][z][/SUP]the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“The children of Your servants will continue,
And their [SUP][aa][/SUP]descendants will be established before You.”



Please use only the text from Psalm 102 to answer these questions:
1.) Who is this passage referring to?
2.) Who founded the earth?

1) This passage is a lament from David and he is praying to his LORD Yahweh. So if refers to Yahweh.

2) His LORD Yahweh founded the earth. See also John 1:1-3 The Word (Jesus) made everything that was made.
Jesus of the New Testament is the same Person as Yahweh of the Old Testament. No question.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Let me show you a scripture that ties Jesus Christ to the Israelites and Moses. If we can tie him to them, then we can tie his name (Jesus) to their God's name (Yahweh/Jehovah).

See 1 Corinthians 10:1-9
I'm going to paraphrase instead of typing the whole scripture.

All our fathers passed through the sea (Israel coming out of Egypt)
Were all baptized unto Moses
Did all eat the same spiritual meat (manna)
Did all drink the same spiritual drink, for they drank of that spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock was Christ.
But God was not pleased with many of them and they were overthrown in the wilderness.
We should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.
We should not be idolaters as some of them were.
We should not commit fornications as some of them did and fell in 1 day 20,000.
Let us not tempt Christ as some of them also tempted and were destroyed by serpents.
Jesus is Yahweh/Jehovah of the Old Testament. He is the God that brought the Israelites out of Egypt. He was their protection, he is the one that spoke to Moses on Mt. Sinai, he gave the law, he administered justice, he created the pillar of fire by night and was in the cloud by day to lead this stiff-necked people for 40 years through the wilderness. Yahweh/Jehovah was the name of their God.

Paul is telling us in 1 Corinthians 10 that this same Yahweh/Jehovah who was with the Israelites and Moses came to earth and was given the name of Jesus and died for our sins, that we may live. This scripture answers the question, is there a scripture that says Jesus is Yahweh/Jehovah. The answer is yes. This scripture says that Jesus was the God of the Israelites, and the God of the Israelites was Yahweh/Jehovah.

We also know that Jesus is not God the Father, so if Jesus is Yahweh/Jehovah and Jesus is not God the Father, then Yahweh/Jehovah is not God the Father.

I'll turn around my quote that you were replying to to read like this:

Yahweh (Jehovah) is not only Jesus.

Jesus is Jehovah, but so is the Father, and so is the Holy Spirit.

If the Father weren't Jehovah, He would be a second God. But we know that there is only one God (Jehovah). Therefore the Father has to be Jehovah, too. The same with the Holy Spirit.

Yes, 1 Corinthians 10:1-9 shows that Jesus is Yahweh. But it doesn't mean that the Father isn't Yahweh. And it doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit isn't Yahweh.

Once again, the consistent message of Scripture is that there is only one God, and He is Yahweh.

So to say that the Father and Holy Spirit are not Yahweh is the same as denying their deity.

Read over Isaiah 45 again -- Yahweh is the one and only God. So if the Father and the Holy Spirit are God, then they have to be Yahweh as well. Yahweh doesn't give us the option of there being other gods. This is the only conclusion that we can come to.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

1) This passage is a lament from David and he is praying to his LORD Yahweh. So if refers to Yahweh.

2) His LORD Yahweh founded the earth. See also John 1:1-3 The Word (Jesus) made everything that was made.
Jesus of the New Testament is the same Person as Yahweh of the Old Testament. No question.

Thanks for answering, but I am specifically asking NWL, and I still want to hear his answers to my questions.

I agree with you that Jesus is Yahweh....where you and I differ is that you keep stating that there are three Gods, and you keep saying that Yahweh is only Jesus, and that the Father and the Holy Spirit are completely different Gods.

But since you affirm that Jesus created everything, then I must ask you -- do you believe that the Father created anything? What about the Holy Spirit?

 

[NWL]

For NWL -- I'm posting this again because I'm afraid it will get lost in the dialogue, and it's important to me that this post gets answered by him:

Psalm 102:18-28 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP][SUP][r][/SUP]This will be written for the generation to come,
[SUP][s][/SUP]That a people yet to be created [SUP][t][/SUP]may praise [SUP][u][/SUP]the LORD.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For He looked down from His holy height;
From heaven the LORD gazed [SUP][v][/SUP]upon the earth,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]To hear the groaning of the prisoner,
To set free [SUP][w][/SUP]those who were doomed to death,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]That men may tell of the name of the LORD in Zion
And His praise in Jerusalem,
[SUP]22 [/SUP]When the peoples are gathered together,
And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.


[SUP]23 [/SUP]He has weakened my strength in the way;
He has shortened my days.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the [SUP][x][/SUP]midst of my days,
Your years are throughout all generations.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“[SUP][y][/SUP]Even they will perish, but You endure;
And all of them will wear out like a garment;
Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]“But You are [SUP][z][/SUP]the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“The children of Your servants will continue,
And their [SUP][aa][/SUP]descendants will be established before You.”



Please use only the text from Psalm 102 to answer these questions:
1.) Who is this passage referring to?
2.) Who founded the earth?

Thank you, i will respond some time, after work today.


Regards

 

[VCO]

Blasphemy isn't just claiming to be God though, as I have stated. Also couldn't you see a group of jews stoning Jesus because of this purely out of anger? I could. He is claiming to be on a higher level than Abraham. This is the same as him saying "I am better than all of you talking to me, because I am better than Abraham" (That's how the Jews would have taken this, not what Jesus meant) That would have HIGHLY offended them, causing high amounts of anger.

So I could see them calling this blasphemy, or I could see them doing it out of pure anger.

No, Jews prided themselves in following the Law. AND they all knew that wrongful stoning would require an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. Belittling Abraham, would only required this penalty:

Numbers 15:29-31 (GW)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] You must give the same instructions to everyone who does something wrong unintentionally, whether they are native-born Israelites or not.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] “But any native-born Israelite or foreigner who deliberately does something wrong insults the LORD and must be excluded from the people.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] That person has despised the word of the LORD and broken the LORD'S command. He must be excluded completely. He remains guilty.”

 

[NWL]

Re: Aren't snow days fun...?

The Holy Bible was not written in English. English is a translation of the original.If you want to know the meaning of the original, you study the original. Simple.

The meaning of the original texts cannot only be understood by studying the original in modern days, neither is it a requirement. Translators also do a good job of translating from the original so much so that we have a many verity of interpretation of scripture as to get a good impression of what the OT and NT writers were trying to express.

Further...just pick one of NAME attributes ascribed unto the Son in the verse and concord its usage.

Pick the word 'Wonderful' for example...the only two other places in the entirety of the Holy Bible that this term is used, applies to Yahweh!

of course it will, Jesus is the Image of God, of course they will share the same names in some cases.

Scripture?

I think you've gotten confused Bowman, it was your original claim that Jesus shares (some of) the same names as Jehovah, I merely re-confirmed and expressed why I too believe that to be true, quoting with reference (Jesus being the Image of God). Jesus is the imitator of God, therefore some names the Father has Jesus too has.

(John 5:19) "...The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner..."

That they have the same name as proclaimed in scripture, trumps your assertion to the contrary.

What scripture? Isaiah 9:6,7 certainly isn't proof of this, your reasoning on that particular verse is laughable.

Isaiah 37:32 has the same phrase as Isaiah 9:7, "The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this" that expression was used here to show that Jehovah was eager to fulfill his promises, the same goes for Isaiah 9:6,7. It ridiculous to say it was written in Isa 9:7 to show a carry on of names from verse 6, your simply assuming things again.

Already showed Jesus' Baptism...where each person of The Trinity has the same ONE name.

Even your NWT contains this...

Firstly I was talking about all the other names and that Jesus and Jehovah share, secondly how can you tell me they share the name when you can't even show me what that name was in Matthew 28:19. Do you know why you can't tell me what that name was Bowman, it's the same reason it impossible for you to tell me what the name of the law is ("Stop in the name of the Law"), because the name of the law doesn't really have a name but rather the phrase is expressing stop in the name of the authority of the Law. Likewise the preceding context of Matthew 28 was about a gaining of power and authority, therefore Jesus told people with his new found authority to "Therefore" baptize by means of that authority, namely From the Father whom it was given him Jesus, by means of Gods spirit. Father - Son - And Spirit, the verse doesn't denote they are one or Jehovah.

(Matthew 28:18) "...And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth [by the Father]. Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.

Now that you've acknowledged that 'Wonderful' is applied to BOTH Yahweh and The Son....concord the word 'Father' in that verse...

I never denied it in the first place, and I'd rather hear your thoughts on the usage of "Father" applied to Jesus in that verse Bowman.

 

[NWL]

If someone said, "I built that house all by myself," I would take it literally that they were claiming to have built the entire house by themselves.

The example you gave isn't the same as what God said. For example, the different people who all play different roles in building a house cannot claim that they built the whole house themselves. All they can claim is that they contributed to the building process.

When God says that He alone created all things -- then that means that He is the only Creator. Otherwise His statement would be meaningless. It would also be meaningless to say that God is the Creator...if there are things that are not Him who are doing the creating.

God uses no modifiers about His role as Creator. He acknowledges no one else as Creator. That was the whole point of His emphasizing that in the Bible. This is the plain meaning of the texts that refer to Him as Creator.

The illustration could change if you'd like , for example I'm have an Apple Iphone in my pocket as I'm typing this. Now Steve Jobs is the Creator of the Apple Iphone, he designed it and made it. Now lets for argument sake say he hired a single employee to create every apple Iphone on the Earth today. Now if Steve Jobs came to you and said "I am the only maker and creator of the apple Iphone, if it wasn't for me not a single one would of been made, there was no other maker of the apple Iphone apart from me" you would readily accept that statement. Now if that single employee hired by Steve Jobs came and also said "I created all Iphones, if it wasn't for me not a single one would of been made, there was no other maker of Iphone apart from me" you would naturally also accept it. Does the fact that both have the same statements (Apart from only one being the Creator) mean both the employee and steve Jobs must be one person? Simply no, do the two statements conflict with each other on the grounds of logic? No, both can be understood and accepted.

The Father (Steve Jobs in the Illustration) is the Creator and designer all things are out of him and Jesus (the single employee) is the Worker, all things are through him by means of the Father

(1 Corinthians 8:6) "...there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are..."

Jesus the worker, or Master worker (Proverbs 8:30) was the one whom "God.. made the world" (Hebrews 1:1,2). If God therefore made the world through Jesus then God is the Creator and Originator of life, not Jesus, thus you will not find a single scripture which calls Jesus Creator, rather scripture only describes him as the one "through" all things came about, that is God through Jesus as Heb 1:2 along with 1 Cor 8:6

(1 Corinthians 8:6) "...Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him..."

Your also getting confused with the term Creator, what does the term creator mean? If I asked you to design a new colour could you do it? Of course not, we can only comprehend already created colours, what about if I asked you to create a new animal which didn't resemble any type of animal in any way, You couldn't. We are bound by the already made creations of the Creator for example you couldn't design that new animal with fur, skin, legs, arms, eyes, teeth, tails, fins, beaks, scales etc etc because they are all part of the Creators design. The Creator has a unique role, and again the term creator is only ever in reference to Jehovah the Father.

Jesus on the other hand was the agent by which God created all things through, plain and simply Jesus is not the creator, but was simply used to create things by God.

 

[NWL]

Please use only the text from Psalm 102 to answer these questions:
1.) Who is this passage referring to?
2.) Who founded the earth?

1.) YHWH
2.) YHWH

 

[Arwen4CJ]

1.) YHWH
2.) YHWH

Awesome. Thank you. Now I can reply to the rest of your previous message

 

[notuptome]

There are despite the many posts in this thread no verses of scripture that disprove the triune nature of God. There are an abundance of unbelieving hearts that will not accept the triune nature of God.

The natural man cannot receive the Spiritual things of God. They are in fact foolishness to him. The natural man is in darkness and lost. It would be very conceivable to me to not believe in the triune God if I were unsaved. God's very presence in my heart casts out all doubt.

For the cause of Christ
Roger