There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

[NWL]

What you're doing is saying that all the times that Jehovah says "alone" in any verse that He means the same thing, regardless of context. That's not what my argument here is. I was talking specifically about the act of creating, which never can be applied to anyone other than YHWH. He created all that there is. He is eternal.

Now, maybe you are saying that YHWH (whom you think is just the Father), and a separate being, the pre-incarnate Jesus, are eternal. Is that what you believe?

I'm not saying that everywhere when YHWH says he "alone" has done something or will do something that it doesn't mean excatly what it says, but when there a contradiction in scripture because of it, then there must be a deeper meaning to it. And also with regard to your second paragraph yes I do believe both Jesus and the Father are eternal and that only the Father is YHWH, I believe however that Jesus hasn't always been eternal but only became Eternal when he was glorified by his Father.

Moses is not YHWH -- that is obvious. The "angel" can sometimes be YHWH, but it all depends on the context. That is why context is key. My argument that Jehovah alone created the world only works because we can actually go back to the Scripture and see that there was no one else who did the creating, and we can also see the context in which He claimed to be the only creator. Therefore, when He says that He alone did the creating, we can take it at face value.

It doesn't work to take a phrase "I alone" and then claim that all the veress in which God says this mean the same thing, completely ignoring the context and other factors.

So, no, the Isrelites are not YHWH. We know this from the context in which it was spoken, and from our understanding of other verses.

Now that you agree that the Father creates through Jesus (based on Hebrews 1:1,2) then that also means that you should accept that the Father is Originator as this is what Hebrews 1:1,2 shows. Now the issue I can see you have is that because we can back track to Genesis and actually see it talking of God doing all the creating, that the account differs from the other account that I used to counter you, the "YHWH only claim". For example, when "YHWH alone" lead Israel, along with Moses leading Israel, this account differs from the Genesis "YHWH creation alone" account because its not as detailed.

What you need to do Arwen4CJ is get over it. Just because the creation account in Genesis goes into more detail about creation, and doesn't seem to include any other person in it isn't prove that my example principle (of Moses leading Israel lets say) is incorrect in realtion the Jesus and the Father alone creating. Your claiming ignorance purely because of a lack of description.

For example if Isaiah 63:3 started going into detail about YHWH alone leading Israel through the wilderness, with verses reading "YHWH himself led Isreal, taking them to Marah Elim, then to Dophkah, to Mt. Sinai, carrying them through the Valley Hazeroth, then YHWH took them to Bene-Jaakan etc " would that be proof that Moses must be YHWH since "we can actually go back to the Scripture and see that there was no one else who [led them]" of course not, because we still have a verse which shows that God through Moses led Israel, just because YHWH used Moses is not proof of anything except what we already know, God uses agents to accomplish his will.

There is no difference in the Genesis account, simply because it goes into detail and doesn't name anyone else isn't proof that no one else did any creating, invertedly implying that Jesus is YHWH. Furthermore scripture does state someone was with God at the creation, your simply looking at it from a trinitrian mind set. the verse reads "God said let us make man in our image" Obviously, God here is speaking to someone. Normally, if a persons says to his son, “Let us build our house according to our original plan,” we do not think that the person who is speaking is speaking to another person of himself. Likewise, in those instances where God says “let us”, “we”, etc., God is not speaking to another person of Himself, but he is speaking to someone else who is not Himself. Indeed, the default reasoning should be that YHWH is speaking to someone else who is not Himself.

Jesus before his pre-human existence fits this role, therefore we can see that someone else was involved in creation. Jesus himself spoke of him apart from the Genesis creation account, claiming that not he himself made man, but God, since it was God the Father who was the ultimate source. Jesus said "However, from [the] beginning of creation ‘He [God] made them male and female." (Mark 10:6)

You cannot disprove that Jesus is YHWH by comparing passages in which YHWH declares that He alone did something, and then claim that it always has one meaning. Jesus being YHWH rests on numerous Scriptures, and the fact that there is only one God.

If you deny that Jesus is YHWH, just as the Father is YHWH you are left with only the conclusion below:

Jesus must either be a second God, or He must be a demi-god. This conclusion does not fit with YHWH's delcaration that He is the one and only God.

Tell me, when YHWH said this to Moses “See, I have made you God to Phar′aoh.." (Exo 7:1) did that mean Moses was a false god?

But who is to say that both the Father and Son are not YHWH? It seems to me that God is the only one who participated in the creation of the world in any way whatsover. God spoke, and everything came into being. Jesus is that Word through which all things were created. God made humans in His own image....which means that we were created in only the image of God, not the image of God and another.

There are no verses in Genesis that say that God used someone who wasn't Him to do the actual creating.

The Bible does, remember, you yourself said there no verse which directly states it. And your correct, we are made only made in the image of God (remember that phrase doesn't imply we are God), Jesus too was made and is the Image of God, meaning that when God was thinking to create man through Jesus, he could say "let us make Man in our Image" since the son also is the same image of the Father, the son reflects his Father remember. So we are created in the image of God and also Jesus because Jesus is that same image.

My belief that Jesus is YHWH does not only rest on Hebrews chapter 1. Jesus can only be the image of God, in the true sense, if He also is YHWH. Otherwise, Jesus would just be another human.

No, we should not conclude that. But the above scenario does not work with the Father and Jesus.....because YHWH is the one and only God. Jesus couldn't simply copy the Father's deity and become a second God. Since the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God, they act together in all that they do. The Son does imitate the Father, but that does not negate the Son's deity and identity as YHWH.

If you believe that Jesus must be Jehovah because he's his image then your not thinking straight my friend. Remember we were made in God image, and too can be transformed into his Image, this though is not proof we are divine, therefore how can it prove Jesus is YHWH, you reading thought in verse.

(2 Corinthians 3:18) "...And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of God, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory..."

And no it wouldn't make Jesus simply Human, how does Jesus being appointed above all things -apart from the Father- given life within himself, and sitting at the Fathers right hand, but not be God even though he's still his image, make Jesus simply Human. Your mad to claim such a thing. How can Jesus posses all those things but because he's not God imply he's no better than a lowly human.

2.)the text says to the Father's glory...but it couldn't be to the Father's glory unless Jesus was also YHWH.
Why? Because YHWH says that every knee would bow to Him, and every tongue would swear allegience to Him.....
But yet in Philippians they are bowing to Jesus, and swearing by Jesus......so the Father could not be glorified in this unless both Jesus and the Father were YHWH.

Thank you for answering. You are correct, it is to the Fathers Glory. But again your reasoning is inaccurate, even though were swearing by Jesus its in reality all goes back to the Father. Again Jesus is simply an agent the Father uses to gain worship, for instance if I pledge allegiance to the Flag does that mean that the Flag must be America? No, Does that mean I'm swear to be loyal to that literal flag in front of me? No again, rather its pledge of allegiance to the USA, all the flag does it symbolize the USA, likewise Jesus was the one through which we gain life since it was him who gave his life for us. However since the Father sent Jesus, and Worship (Godly worship not simple obeisance) only is ever given to the Father, we bow to Jesus in recognition to the one who sent him, namely the Father. This does not prove Jesus is YHWH or that Jesus receives worship anymore than claiming the American Flag is the United States of America.

We would be praying to the Father.But we also sometimes pray to Jesus...and we do worship Jesus along with the Father. Jesus receives worship in the Bible.

Again thank you for answering. You're correct we pray to the Father, I'll state my point for this, but I have a problem with something you just said. It's interesting you say that we pray to Jesus and worship him along with the Father. So please show me if you will, the scripture which states we are to pray to Jesus and we should worship him, in fact I'll make it easier for you show me any verse which shows anyone praying to Jesus or worshiping him. (When I say worship I mean it in a Godly worship sense, not a homage obeisance mammer)

 

[NWL]

Thanks.
[/FONT]

But you are making the assumption that only the Father is YHWH.

Its not an assumption, its the very thing that no one on this board has yet been able to show, that either the Son or HS is YHWH, Imagine if I wanted to be mean to you and simply asked you to prove the HS was YHWH, it would be near enough impossible for you, trust me.

I actually can agree with you that the Father created through the Son.....but only if they are both YHWH. The same is true for all other actions that God does, such as our redemption, salvation, etc.

You and I agree that the Father and Jesus are separate Persons. The thing that we disagree on is their unity -- of being of the same essence and being...that they are both YHWH.

You obviously revere Jesus, but you see Him as less than the Father, thus you do not understand Him to be YHWH. You do also acknowledge that Jesus had a pre-existence, and that He was there in Genesis 1. But, let me ask you this

You can't see how muddled up your reasoning is Arwen4CJ, how can YHWH, who you believe to be the Father/Son/HS, create things through the Son. If that was truly the case, with Jesus being YHWH then the Father wouldn't of created through anyone expect himself since he, Jesus and the HS are one. Jesus has to be separate from YHWH for him to be able to create things through him.

if Jesus isn't YHWH, then who is He? What is He? It seems that you agree that Jesus was more than just a mere human...so what do you think about Him?

First of Jesus is Divine, Holy and can be likened to a God. I believe him to be the Son of God and a created being by the Father himself, in actual fact I believe him to be the firstborn with the rest of creation being made after and through him as stated in scripture.

(Colossians 1:15) "...He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation..."

 

[phil36]

Jesus is either.

1) The one true God (The great 'I am')

2) A god

3) an angel.


1)scripture does no say Jesus was an angel... 2) Scripture never says Jesus is a god 3) Jesus himself claims to be the great 'I am'


Even though we don't fully understand it, scripture is clear there is one God, that is, one being yet three distinct persons

Colossians 1:15 certainly is an interesting verse especially when you understand what it means in light of all scripture.

 

[johnluke]

So you're saying that you now believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God?

Do you agree that that one God is YHWH? If not, how do you now understand that the Persons are one God?

Let's start with the New Testament, it is easier. In the New Testament, each of the 3 separate Persons in the Godhead has a name that distinguishes each of them. 1) God the Father, 2) the LORD Jesus Christ, 3) the Holy Ghost or Spirit.
So in Matthew 3:16-17 we do not say that Jesus was coming out of the waters of baptism and lo the heavens were open and he saw Jesus coming down out of heaven and lighting upon Jesus. And lo a voice (Jesus) from the heavens saying, this is my beloved son in whom I am well please, hear ye him.
That is a bit absurd, the LORD Jesus was indeed on the ground, but the Holy Spirit was coming down from Heaven, and God was speaking from the heavens. Clearly identifying the 3 separate persons in 3 different places at the same time.

Now lets try this in Old Testament times. If you study the Old Testament there are 2 names that dominate the Old Testament and those 2 names are Elohim (translated God) and Yahweh (translated LORD). I believe that just like in the New Testament the names of God the Father, the LORD Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost distinguished the 3 separate Persons, the same thing holds in the Old Testament.
The names of the 3 members of the Godhead in Old Testament times were 1) Elohim (God), 2) Yahweh (LORD),
and the Holy Spirit. They are one God

 

[VCO]

"by him" (en) in verse 16 is a inaccurate description, other translations acknowledge the "en" should translated "through". The last part of this same verse further confirms this proper rendering of the usage of the instrumental en of the first part. Yes, “For through or by means of (en) him all things were created” (Col. 1:16 a) is made certain by the concluding part: “All things were created through [dia] him….” (Col. 1:16c) – NKJV.

Even with "en" written as "by" in beginning of the verse doesn't imply he was the source of creation, you're simply reading that thought into scripture. Also If the verse also showed Jesus to be the Originator of all creation then it would contradict Hebrews 1:1,2 which shows God the Father is the Originator, creating things through Jesus"

Says non-born again, non-Trinitarian scholars, using only human intellect to arrive at that conclusion, and NOT the spiritual understanding given by the Holy Spirit to discern Spiritual TRUTH.

Now let's see what born again, Trinitarian Scholars have to say about that Verse:

Dr. John MacArthur, President of the Master's College and Seminary:

Jesus Christ in Relation to the Universe

For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. (Col. 1:16-17)

​

Paul gives three reasons for Jesus' primacy over creation. First, He is the Creator. The false teachers at Colossae viewed Jesus as the first and most important of the emanations from God, but they were convinced it had to be a lesser being much further down the chain who eventually created the material universe. But Paul rejects that blasphemy, insisting that by Him all things were created. That truth is affirmed by the apostle John (John 1:3) and the writer of Hebrews (Heb. 1:2). Because the Colossian errorists viewed matter as evil, they argued that neither the good God nor a good emanation could have created it. But Paul maintains that Jesus made all things, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible. He refutes the false philosophic dualism of the Colossian heresy. Jesus is God, and He created the material universe.

MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – Colossians and Philemon.

Dr. J. Vernon McGee:

When Jesus Christ is called the Firstborn of all creation, it is not referring to His birth at Bethlehem. This is no Christmas verse. It means that He has top priority of position. It has nothing to do with His origin at all. The psalmist wrote, "Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth" (Ps. 89:27). This makes it very clear that Christ as the eternal Son holds the position of top priority to all creation. In other words, He is the Creator. There is no demiurge, no series of creatures being created one after another. He Himself created all things.Let me mention some other verses of Scripture that speak of the person of Christ. In Hebrews 1:3 we read: "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high." That doesn't sound very much like He is a mere creature, does it? He is the Second Person of the Godhead. "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire." Now the Lord Jesus is not one of these creatures: "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom" (Heb. 1:7-8).
So, my friend, what we are talking about here is not that the Lord Jesus was born a creature; we are talking about the fact that He is God. When He came into the world, a child was born but the Son was given, and He had come out of eternity. The angel's announcement to Mary was "...that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). Why? Because that is who He is. He was the Son of God before He came into this world. "...Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matt. 16:16).
Now we come to the next two great statements concerning the Lord Jesus:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him [Col. 1:16]

3. "By him were all things created." If all things were created by Him, that clears up the question of His being a creature or the Creator. The statement that He is the Firstborn of all creation does not mean that He was created, but rather He is the One who did the creating.

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

The Dallas Theological Seminary Faculty:

Col. 1:16.

The third characteristic of Christ is that by Him all things were created. In fact all things were created by Him (di autou, instrumental Cause) and for Him (eis auton, final Cause), and in Him (en autō) they hold together (He is the constituting or conserving Cause). Christ is not only the One through whom all things came to be, but also the One by whom they continue to exist. Two other New Testament verses parallel this description of Christ: “Through Him all things were made” (John 1:3), and Christ the Son is the One “through whom [the Father] made the universe” (Heb. 1:2). The Father, then, is the ultimate Source (efficient Cause), and the Son is the mediating Cause of the world. The Son was the “master Workman” of Creation, “the beginning (archē) of the Creation of God” (Rev. 3:14, nasb).

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

Believer's Bible Commentary
By: William MacDonald, Edited By: Arthur Farstad:

Colossians 1:16 False teachers use verse 15 (especially in the KJV) to teach that the Lord Jesus was a created being. Error can usually be refuted from the very passage of Scripture which the cultists use. That is the case here. Verse 16 states conclusively that the Lord Jesus is not a creature, but the very Creator. In this verse we learn that all things—the whole universe of things—were created not only by Him but through Him and for Him. Each of these prepositions conveys a different thought. First of all, we read that by Him all things were created. Here the thought is that the power to create was in His Being. He was the Architect. Later in the verse we learn that all things were created through Him. This speaks of Him as the Agent in creation. He was the Person of the Godhead through whom the creative act was performed. Also, all things were created for Him. He is the One for whom all things were created, the goal of creation.
Paul goes to great lengths to emphasize that all things were created through Christ, whether things in heaven, or things on earth. This leaves no loopholes for anyone to suggest that although He created some things, He Himself was created originally.
The apostle then goes on to state that the Lord's creation included things visible and things invisible. The word visible needs no explanation, but doubtless the Apostle Paul realized that when he said invisible he would arouse our curiosity. Therefore, he proceeds to give a break-down of what he means by things invisible. They include thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. We believe that these terms refer to angelic beings, although we cannot distinguish between the different ranks of these intelligent beings.
The Gnostics taught that there were various ranks and classes of spirit beings between God and matter, and that Christ belonged to one of these classes. In our day the Spiritists claim that Jesus Christ is an advanced spirit of the sixth sphere. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that before our Lord came into the world, He was a created angel and none other than the archangel Michael! Here Paul vigorously refutes such absurd notions by stating in the clearest possible terms that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Creator of angels—in fact, of all beings, whether visible or invisible.

Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.

Amazing, I find NO born again, Trinitarian that thinks "BY HIM" was an error in translation.

 

[Bowman]

if you want to show me a scripture where Jesus is called Jehovah then do it,

Done.

Its your choice, and resultant consequence, to reject it.

 

[Bowman]

You have nothing...again...

Its not an assumption, its the very thing that no one on this board has yet been able to show, that either the Son or HS is YHWH,

We have, brother.

Its just that you cannot see.

You have already proudly admitted to Hebrew and Greek ignorance....the very prerequisite for followers of Jehovah witness and similar cults.

 

[VCO]

So what's your point in reference to what I said, how does that fact disclaim anything I've said, care to explain friend?

Comprehension of the Triune GODhead, can only be understood when your human spirit is brought to eternal life by the Holy Spirit, so that you have a spiritual mind that is in tune with GOD. Those Spiritual Truths that I point out are NEVER understood fully when all you have is a fleshly mind to discern spiritual Truths with.

THEY WILL ALWAYS SOUND LIKE FOOLISHNESS, to one who has never been Born Again.

How is one born again, or has his human spirit that was spiritually dead to the spiritual Truths of GOD, instantly brought to eternal life and spiritual Truths of GOD? It requires yielding to the WORK of the Holy Spirit on your heart in two areas.

1. Complete conviction of one's own utter sinfulness;
2. and a complete willing surrender to Jesus Christ as LORD which means MASTER.

As long as one refuses to admit his own total depravity (utter sinfulness),

and/or

refuses to give complete control of his or her life to Jesus Christ as LORD;

they will remain, with a human spirit that is dead to the spiritual truths of GOD, (NOT born again).

 

[Bowman]

The names of the 3 members of the Godhead in Old Testament times were 1) Elohim (God), 2) Yahweh (LORD),
and the Holy Spirit. They are one God

Each has the same name in the OT, Yahweh.

The Son was referred to as Malek Yahweh, Yahweh, The Glory, El Shaddai, The Word of Yahweh, etc...

 

[Arwen4CJ]

I'm not saying that everywhere when YHWH says he "alone" has done something or will do something that it doesn't mean excatly what it says, but when there a contradiction in scripture because of it, then there must be a deeper meaning to it. And also with regard to your second paragraph yes I do believe both Jesus and the Father are eternal and that only the Father is YHWH, I believe however that Jesus hasn't always been eternal but only became Eternal when he was glorified by his Father.

God being eternal means that He has no beginning. Someone can't just become eternal -- someone is either eternal or not eternal. So if you agree that Jesus is eternal, then that means that He always existed. Jesus had the same glory as the Father since forever. YHWH does not share His own glory with another.

Now that you agree that the Father creates through Jesus (based on Hebrews 1:1,2) then that also means that you should accept that the Father is Originator as this is what Hebrews 1:1,2 shows. Now the issue I can see you have is that because we can back track to Genesis and actually see it talking of God doing all the creating, that the account differs from the other account that I used to counter you, the "YHWH only claim". For example, when "YHWH alone" lead Israel, along with Moses leading Israel, this account differs from the Genesis "YHWH creation alone" account because its not as detailed.

The Father creating through Jesus doesn't mean that Jesus doesn't create. In fact, it means that He does.

What you need to do Arwen4CJ is get over it. Just because the creation account in Genesis goes into more detail about creation, and doesn't seem to include any other person in it isn't prove that my example principle (of Moses leading Israel lets say) is incorrect in realtion the Jesus and the Father alone creating. Your claiming ignorance purely because of a lack of description.

I'm not claiming ignorance -- I'm claiming that Scripture doesn't show any other doing the creating other than God. You refuse to accept that Jesus and the Father are both Jehovah, and you hold to a view that Jesus is some sort of demi-god...because that seems to be how you see Him, even though you are not using that exact phrase, that is what it amounts to.

For example if Isaiah 63:3 started going into detail about YHWH alone leading Israel through the wilderness, with verses reading "YHWH himself led Isreal, taking them to Marah Elim, then to Dophkah, to Mt. Sinai, carrying them through the Valley Hazeroth, then YHWH took them to Bene-Jaakan etc " would that be proof that Moses must be YHWH since "we can actually go back to the Scripture and see that there was no one else who [led them]" of course not, because we still have a verse which shows that God through Moses led Israel, just because YHWH used Moses is not proof of anything except what we already know, God uses agents to accomplish his will.

No, because obviously we know that Moses is just a man.

There is no difference in the Genesis account, simply because it goes into detail and doesn't name anyone else isn't proof that no one else did any creating, invertedly implying that Jesus is YHWH. Furthermore scripture does state someone was with God at the creation, your simply looking at it from a trinitrian mind set. the verse reads "God said let us make man in our image" Obviously, God here is speaking to someone. Normally, if a persons says to his son, “Let us build our house according to our original plan,” we do not think that the person who is speaking is speaking to another person of himself. Likewise, in those instances where God says “let us”, “we”, etc., God is not speaking to another person of Himself, but he is speaking to someone else who is not Himself. Indeed, the default reasoning should be that YHWH is speaking to someone else who is not Himself.
Jesus before his pre-human existence fits this role, therefore we can see that someone else was involved in creation. Jesus himself spoke of him apart from the Genesis creation account, claiming that not he himself made man, but God, since it was God the Father who was the ultimate source. Jesus said "However, from [the] beginning of creation ‘He [God] made them male and female." (Mark 10:6)

But it says that God created, not God and another created. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. You are reading it with a non-Trinitarian bias. I'm reading it with a Trinitarian bias. And don't say that you have no bias, or that your understanding of Scripture is the correct one. We all have a bias when we come to reading Scripture. That is why we all need the Holy Spirit to help us understand. No one can come to a correct understanding without the Holy Spirit revealing the truth to us.

Jesus did sometimes speak in the third person, such as when He used the term "the Son of Man," He often did not use the pronoun "Me." We can't assume that just because He said that God created humans that He was denying His own deity, or denying His own role in creation. He did make claims to be God, but you don't accept those claims....so we are stuck at getting nowhere. That's why I said I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

You asked me to show you the reason why I believe that Jesus is Jehovah, and I did. You just don't accept the evidence I presented, choosing to explain it away. There's nothing more that I can do here. I have done as you asked. I told you why I personally believe that Jesus is YHWH.

Tell me, when YHWH said this to Moses “See, I have made you God to Phar′aoh.." (Exo 7:1) did that mean Moses was a false god?

Exodus 7:1-6 (NASB)
7 The LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. [SUP]2 [/SUP]You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his land. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and I will multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt. [SUP]4 [/SUP]When Pharaoh does not listen to you, I will lay my hand upon Egypt and bring my people the Israelites, company by company, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment. [SUP]5 [/SUP]The Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out from among them.” [SUP]6 [/SUP]Moses and Aaron did so; they did just as the Lord commanded them. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Moses was eighty years old and Aaron eighty-three when they spoke to Pharaoh.

This Scripture doesn't mean that Moses is God, nor is it calling Moses God, nor does Moses ever claim to be God, nor does any biblical author call Moses God. Since no doctrine should be formed on just one verse, this verse does not mean that Moses is God, even if we use the translation that you quoted.

The Bible, though, does declare that Jesus is God. Over and over and over again.

John 1:1 (NASB)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 Peter 1:1 (NASB)

1 [SUP][a][/SUP]Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have received a faith of the same [SUP][b][/SUP]kind as ours, [SUP][c][/SUP]by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus
Christ:

Titus 2:11-14 (NASB)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the grace of God has appeared, [SUP][f][/SUP]bringing salvation to all men, [SUP]12 [/SUP][SUP][g][/SUP]instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, [SUP]13 [/SUP]looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of [SUP][h][/SUP]our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Revelation 1:8 (NASB)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who [SUP][f][/SUP]is to come, the Almighty.”

And many other places....

The Bible does, remember, you yourself said there no verse which directly states it. And your correct, we are made only made in the image of God (remember that phrase doesn't imply we are God), Jesus too was made and is the Image of God, meaning that when God was thinking to create man through Jesus, he could say "let us make Man in our Image" since the son also is the same image of the Father, the son reflects his Father remember. So we are created in the image of God and also Jesus because Jesus is that same image.

Jesus was not created. He created all things, or if you prefer, through Him, all things were created.

John 1:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Colossians 1:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For [SUP][x][/SUP]by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.


If Jesus were a created being, then neither John 1:3 nor Colossians 1:16 would be true.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

If you believe that Jesus must be Jehovah because he's his image then your not thinking straight my friend. Remember we were made in God image, and too can be transformed into his Image, this though is not proof we are divine, therefore how can it prove Jesus is YHWH, you reading thought in verse.

The Bible doesn't say we are exactly like God. It does say we were created in His image.

Let's look at the Scriptures that say that Jesus is the image of God. When we do that, we will see that, although the phrase "in the image of God" is the same as the phrase you are using about Jesus, the meaning is different.

Colossians 1:15-20 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP][SUP][w][/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For [SUP][x][/SUP]by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He [SUP][y][/SUP]is before all things, and in Him all things [SUP][z][/SUP]hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For [SUP][aa][/SUP]it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the [SUP][ab][/SUP]fullness to dwell in Him, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in [SUP][ac][/SUP]heaven.


Colossians 1 is talking about Jesus' supremacy in all things, and it also shows that Jesus is the image of the invisible God because He, too, is God.

Hebrews 1:2-4 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP][SUP][a][/SUP]in these last days has spoken to us [SUP][b][/SUP]in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the [SUP][c][/SUP]world. [SUP]3 [/SUP][SUP][d][/SUP]And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and [SUP][e][/SUP]upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, [SUP]4 [/SUP]having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.


Again, Jesus can only be the exact represantation of God's nature if Jesus is Himself God.

Beyond these two verses, I don't know what other ones you might have in mind with the "Jesus is the image of God" statement.

In Genesis 1 God did not claim that we are the exact representation of Him, or that we uphold the universe, or that all the fullness of God dwells in us.

Colossians 2:8-19 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, [SUP][h][/SUP]rather than according to Christ. [SUP]9[/SUP]For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and in Him you have been made [SUP][i][/SUP]complete, and He is the head [SUP][j][/SUP]over all rule and authority; [SUP]11 [/SUP]and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; [SUP]12 [/SUP]having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. [SUP]13 [/SUP]When you were dead [SUP][k][/SUP]in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, [SUP]14 [/SUP]having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. [SUP]15 [/SUP]When He had [SUP][l][/SUP]disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through [SUP][m][/SUP]Him.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore no one is to [SUP][n][/SUP]act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath [SUP][o][/SUP]day— [SUP]17 [/SUP]things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the [SUP][p][/SUP]substance [SUP][q][/SUP]belongs to Christ. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Let no one keep [SUP][r][/SUP]defrauding you of your prize by delighting in [SUP][s][/SUP]self-abasement and the worship of the angels, [SUP][t][/SUP]taking his stand on visions he has seen, [SUP][u][/SUP]inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, [SUP]19 [/SUP]and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and [SUP][v][/SUP]ligaments, grows with a growth [SUP][w][/SUP]which is from God.

(2 Corinthians 3:18) "...And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of God, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory..."

And no it wouldn't make Jesus simply Human, how does Jesus being appointed above all things -apart from the Father- given life within himself, and sitting at the Fathers right hand, but not be God even though he's still his image, make Jesus simply Human. Your mad to claim such a thing. How can Jesus posses all those things but because he's not God imply he's no better than a lowly human.

Then your only choice, since you deny that Jesus is YHWH, is to claim that Jesus is a demi-god.

Thank you for answering. You are correct, it is to the Fathers Glory. But again your reasoning is inaccurate, even though were swearing by Jesus its in reality all goes back to the Father. Again Jesus is simply an agent the Father uses to gain worship, for instance if I pledge allegiance to the Flag does that mean that the Flag must be America? No, Does that mean I'm swear to be loyal to that literal flag in front of me? No again, rather its pledge of allegiance to the USA, all the flag does it symbolize the USA, likewise Jesus was the one through which we gain life since it was him who gave his life for us. However since the Father sent Jesus, and Worship (Godly worship not simple obeisance) only is ever given to the Father, we bow to Jesus in recognition to the one who sent him, namely the Father. This does not prove Jesus is YHWH or that Jesus receives worship anymore than claiming the American Flag is the United States of America.

Again thank you for answering. You're correct we pray to the Father, I'll state my point for this, but I have a problem with something you just said. It's interesting you say that we pray to Jesus and worship him along with the Father. So please show me if you will, the scripture which states we are to pray to Jesus and we should worship him, in fact I'll make it easier for you show me any verse which shows anyone praying to Jesus or worshiping him. (When I say worship I mean it in a Godly worship sense, not a homage obeisance mammer)

Matthew 2:1-3 (NASB)
2 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, [SUP][a][/SUP]magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, [SUP]2 [/SUP]“Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him.” [SUP]3 [/SUP]When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

Matthew 2:10-12 (NASB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. [SUP]11 [/SUP]After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they [SUP][a][/SUP]fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way.


Matthew 14:32 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP]When they got into the boat, the wind stopped. [SUP]33 [/SUP]And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”

Matthew 28:8-10 (NASB)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy and ran to report it to His disciples. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And behold, Jesus met them [SUP][a][/SUP]and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus *said to them, “[SUP][b][/SUP]Do not be afraid; go and take word to My brethren to leave for Galilee, and there they will see Me.”

Matthew 28:16-18 (NASB)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. [SUP]17 [/SUP]When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Luke 24:51-53 (NASB)

[SUP]51 [/SUP]While He was blessing them, He parted from them and was carried up into heaven. [SUP]52 [/SUP]And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy, [SUP]53 [/SUP]and were continually in the temple [SUP][a][/SUP]praising God.


John 9:37-39 (NASB)
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.” [SUP]38 [/SUP]And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

Revelation 5:11-14 (NASB)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, [SUP]12 [/SUP]saying with a loud voice,

“Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
“To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

 

[GreenNnice]

NWL: I'm not saying that everywhere when YHWH says he "alone" has done something or will do something that it doesn't mean excatly what it says, but when there a contradiction in scripture because of it, then there must be a deeper meaning to it. And also with regard to your second paragraph yes I do believe both Jesus and the Father are eternal and that only the Father is YHWH, I believe however that Jesus hasn't always been eternal but only became Eternal when he was glorified by his Father.

"Before Abraham was born, I am." -- Jesus

This explains Jesus was not mortal on Earth, He was eternal. He was fully man, but, He was fully God, too. "I am" is transcendent speech, it has NO beginning and no end. "I am" means you ARE . It doesn't mean 'You were,' or, 'You was,' it means, foreverness, transcending time and space. Jesus has NO beginning and no end, He is Alpha and Omega, which He calls Himself , and, 'the beginning and the end.' This Jesus, this person whom you think was mortified and deified NEVER was , He always IS God. NO beginning, no end, ALWAYS was. Hard to fathom this thought, but, we don't need to. We are NOT God and trying to read God's mind is something that's NOT happening, EVER, just read 1 Cor. 2 last few verses and you will understand that, fully

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”[SUP]b[/SUP] —

the things God has prepared for those who love him—



10these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[SUP]c[/SUP] 14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord

so as to instruct him?”[SUP]d[/SUP]

But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Its not an assumption, its the very thing that no one on this board has yet been able to show, that either the Son or HS is YHWH, Imagine if I wanted to be mean to you and simply asked you to prove the HS was YHWH, it would be near enough impossible for you, trust me.

We already showed that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah, and we've shown that Jesus is as well. You just refuse to accept the evidence. There's really nothing more that we can do in this thread. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal the truth to you on this subject.

You can't see how muddled up your reasoning is Arwen4CJ, how can YHWH, who you believe to be the Father/Son/HS, create things through the Son. If that was truly the case, with Jesus being YHWH then the Father wouldn't of created through anyone expect himself since he, Jesus and the HS are one. Jesus has to be separate from YHWH for him to be able to create things through him.

The whole triune God acted in Creation. How each Person of God acted in creation may vary, but the Persons are all one God.

First of Jesus is Divine, Holy and can be likened to a God. I believe him to be the Son of God and a created being by the Father himself, in actual fact I believe him to be the firstborn with the rest of creation being made after and through him as stated in scripture.

(Colossians 1:15) "...He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation..."

Firstborn does not mean first created, or created at all. That section in Colossians is about the supremacy of Jesus over creation. Jesus created all things, so He is not a created being.

We differ on this, and I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

We all have the witness of Scripture, and that is enough.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Let's start with the New Testament, it is easier. In the New Testament, each of the 3 separate Persons in the Godhead has a name that distinguishes each of them. 1) God the Father, 2) the LORD Jesus Christ, 3) the Holy Ghost or Spirit.
So in Matthew 3:16-17 we do not say that Jesus was coming out of the waters of baptism and lo the heavens were open and he saw Jesus coming down out of heaven and lighting upon Jesus. And lo a voice (Jesus) from the heavens saying, this is my beloved son in whom I am well please, hear ye him.
That is a bit absurd, the LORD Jesus was indeed on the ground, but the Holy Spirit was coming down from Heaven, and God was speaking from the heavens. Clearly identifying the 3 separate persons in 3 different places at the same time.

Again, we agree on the three Persons being there.

Now lets try this in Old Testament times. If you study the Old Testament there are 2 names that dominate the Old Testament and those 2 names are Elohim (translated God) and Yahweh (translated LORD). I believe that just like in the New Testament the names of God the Father, the LORD Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost distinguished the 3 separate Persons, the same thing holds in the Old Testament.
The names of the 3 members of the Godhead in Old Testament times were 1) Elohim (God), 2) Yahweh (LORD),
and the Holy Spirit. They are one God

Although I disagree with you in regard to Elohim just applying to the Father, and Yahweh just applying to Jesus, at least you say that you believe they are all one God now instead of Three Gods.

 

[NWL]

God being eternal means that He has no beginning. Someone can't just become eternal -- someone is either eternal or not eternal. So if you agree that Jesus is eternal, then that means that He always existed. Jesus had the same glory as the Father since forever. YHWH does not share His own glory with another.

Arwen4CJ that's your understand of the word Eternal, its not however the actual understanding, the fact that anyone can gain eternal life is found woven into scripture.

(Roman 6:23 NASB) "...For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord..."

I'm not claiming ignorance -- I'm claiming that Scripture doesn't show any other doing the creating other than God. You refuse to accept that Jesus and the Father are both Jehovah, and you hold to a view that Jesus is some sort of demi-god...because that seems to be how you see Him, even though you are not using that exact phrase, that is what it amounts to.

It does, it shows Jesus, its just that you have the thought that Jesus is YHWH when that doesn't even complicate things, since it shows, the Father created and his helper was Jesus, it says of Jesus "then I came to be beside him as a master worker". Two people involved in creation, The Father and his Son. This in effect allows them to share the same titles, both who "laid foundations of the Earth", this doesn't however imply they are each other anymore than it does imply Nebuchadnezzar was also the people who built Babylon.

No, because obviously we know that Moses is just a man.

Yes and we know from other scripture that's its impossible for Jesus to be YHWH (to which I has not been shown to you yet). Again the only thing that's making you deny it is in the details.

But it says that God created, not God and another created. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. You are reading it with a non-Trinitarian bias. I'm reading it with a Trinitarian bias. And don't say that you have no bias, or that your understanding of Scripture is the correct one. We all have a bias when we come to reading Scripture. That is why we all need the Holy Spirit to help us understand. No one can come to a correct understanding without the Holy Spirit revealing the truth to us.

You asked me to show you the reason why I believe that Jesus is Jehovah, and I did. You just don't accept the evidence I presented, choosing to explain it away. There's nothing more that I can do here. I have done as you asked. I told you why I personally believe that Jesus is YHWH.

You did show me why you believe Jesus is YHWH, which I thank you for. However you need to understand you're basing your belief on scriptures which only show half truths, you're not letting scripture interpret scripture. You're reading one scripture and basing your belief on it, rather than reading another verse which explains that viewpoint better.

1.) You came to me saying Jesus created all things, however we now know that the Father was the on who created, but through Jesus, that the Father is the source and originator. (heb1:1,2)

2.) You came to me saying that Jesus must be Jehovah because the Father alone created, when in fact we can see that alone doesn't always mean alone and there can still be other involved. (Isa.63:3)

This Scripture doesn't mean that Moses is God, nor is it calling Moses God, nor does Moses ever claim to be God, nor does any biblical author call Moses God. Since no doctrine should be formed on just one verse, this verse does not mean that Moses is God, even if we use the translation that you quoted.

It doesn't matter that it says like God, your stumbling yourself my friend. We can both agree that there is and can only be One God. lets pretend peace was restored on Earth and everybody worshiped the one true God. Now if an Angel in Heaven we to make himself "like God to Men" (instead of Pharaoh) according to you that's ok, because he's not saying he is God, but simply acting like God to Men. Now this is crazy reasoning, God would obviously view this angel as another rival God, simply because we whack a "like God" on there doesn't make him any less rival. Likewise God made Moses like God to Pharaoh, Moses wasn't a like a false God to Pharaoh. This same principle can be found when Jesus called Jewish Judges "gods", they weren't however false Gods, likewise for Jesus to be "God" however not God doesn't imply that he is a false God anymore than those Jewish Judges were or Moses was.

If Jesus were a created being, then neither John 1:3 nor Colossians 1:16 would be true.

Again you basing you understand one a few verse instead of interpreting scripture with scripture. Just because scripture states "apart from him not even one thing came into existence." doesn't imply that Jesus can't be a created being since it says that "all created things came into being because of him". For example read the below, the verse is talking about the creation of Man and his authority;

(Hebrews 2:7-9) "..."YOU HAVE MADE HIM [MAN] FOR A LITTLE WHILE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS; YOU HAVE CROWNED HIM WITH GLORY AND HONOR, AND HAVE APPOINTED HIM OVER THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET." For in subjecting all things to him, He [God] left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him...."

Now one could argue that since God left nothing not subject to Adam (before his fall into sin) that God himself was subject to Adam, that claim though it absurd, since since it goes without saying that it doesn't includes God even though it says all things, and God is a thing. Likewise John 1:3 says "apart from him not even one thing came into existence", we also know Jesus is "of creation" (col 1:15). so when it says what it does in John 1:3 it again goes without saying that when it doesn't literally mean "not a single thing" since we already know Jesus is "of creation".[/FONT][/SIZE]

 

[NWL]

The Bible doesn't say we are exactly like God. It does say we were created in His image.

Let's look at the Scriptures that say that Jesus is the image of God. When we do that, we will see that, although the phrase "in the image of God" is the same as the phrase you are using about Jesus, the meaning is different.

Again, Jesus can only be the exact representation of God's nature if Jesus is Himself God.

Beyond these two verses, I don't know what other ones you might have in mind with the "Jesus is the image of God" statement.

In Genesis 1 God did not claim that we are the exact representation of Him, or that we uphold the universe, or that all the fullness of God dwells in us.

Stumbling over detail again. Your fighting scripture with scripture. Rather than change your ideology on one verse as to not contradict another, you simply ignore one, and stick to the other as to not effect your pre-concived ideas. It's perfectly fine to assume that Jesus must be YHWH since he is his image, but if you do then how do you explain 2 Cor 3:18, its pretty clear.

Of Jesus: "He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being" (Hebrews 1:3)

Of Men: "And all of us... reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory" (2 Corinthians 3:18)

Matthew 2:1-3 (NASB)
Matthew 2:10-12 (NASB)
Matthew 14:32 (NASB)
Matthew 28:8-10 (NASB)
Matthew 28:16-18 (NASB)
Luke 24:51-53 (NASB)
John 9:37-39 (NASB)
Revelation 5:11-14 (NASB)

The Hebrews used the words for worship, not only as respects worshiping the only true God, but also as showing homage (obeisance) to a king, a ruler, or any person to whom respect was being given. Most translations render the words for worship in the Old Testament with words such as “bow down”, “bowed before”, etc., when the words for worship are being used respecting rulers, dignitaries, showing respect, etc.

In the New Testament, however, most translations fail to make that distinction, although some Bibles do in a few cases. The word for worship (most often one in our case) is "Proskyneo" it can mean either Worship (Godlike worship) or to pay Homage/Obeisance to one of higher authority or as a means of respect. What you'll find in the NT is nowhere does is tell us to worship Jesus or to pray to him, this all needs to be read into scripture. However most trinitrains don't know this fact so when they read that Jesus was worshiped they don't realize it was Worship in it's fullest sense but rather Homage to Jesus.

Take the first verse you quoted, regarding the Magi. Did they come to worship almighty God or to worship a king? Well what does the account say? "astrologers from eastern parts came to Jerusalem, 2 saying: “Where is the one born king of the Jews? (Matthew 2:1-3) They were looking for the King of the Jews, they didn't think Jesus was Almighty God but rather a King, and do pay homage to a King or worship a King, the answer is simple, Homage, therefore they did an act of obeisance to Jesus. "For we saw his star [when we were] in the east, and we have come to do him obeisance".

The fact of the matter remains, Jesus told us to only worship the Father (Matt 4:10), he taught us that when we pray we are to pray only to the Father (Matt 6:9) and he also said true worship will be restored, not to him, but again only to the Father (John 4:23). Taking this all into account, and that since Jesus himself said these things and also never asked to be worship, nor does any verse tell us to worship him -but only the Father- then how should Proskyneo be translated in the verses below coming for a contextual background? Logically the correct way to translate them is in the only non contradicting way, that Jesus was given obeisance instead of worship. If he was in fact given worship then it contradicts Jesus own words when he told us to pray and worship the Father.

Matthew 2:1-3 (NASB)
Matthew 2:10-12 (NASB)
Matthew 14:32 (NASB)
Matthew 28:8-10 (NASB)
Matthew 28:16-18 (NASB)
Luke 24:51-53 (NASB)
John 9:37-39 (NASB)
Revelation 5:11-14 (NASB)

Overall Arwen4CJ, yes I think we should agree to disagree on certain points. I however enjoy our discussion and find them refreshing, could I bore you further and ask you two questions, one in relation to Jesus being "of creation" in Col 1:15 and also one regarding the scriptural whereabouts of us being commanded to worship Jesus.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Arwen4CJ that's your understand of the word Eternal, its not however the actual understanding, the fact that anyone can gain eternal life is found woven into scripture.

(Roman 6:23 NASB) "...For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord..."

Receiving eternal life is different from being eternal. Receiving eternal life means that, from that point on, we will exist forever. It does not mean that from that point on, we have always existed before that. We wouldn't then say that all Christians are eternal. We would say that all Christians have received eternal life.

To say that someone is eternal implies they always existed....it is a state of being.

It does, it shows Jesus, its just that you have the thought that Jesus is YHWH when that doesn't even complicate things, since it shows, the Father created and his helper was Jesus, it says of Jesus "then I came to be beside him as a master worker". Two people involved in creation, The Father and his Son. This in effect allows them to share the same titles, both who "laid foundations of the Earth", this doesn't however imply they are each other anymore than it does imply Nebuchadnezzar was also the people who built Babylon.

You assume that Jesus exists outside of YHWH. I am assuming that Jesus exists within YHWH. It is a difference in perspective. In my viewpoint, because I believe that both the Father and Jesus are YHWH, though they are different Persons, I see no problem with different roles within YHWH. For my viewpoint, it changes nothing about YHWH being the one and only Creator, and Jesus participating in the act of creation as Creator.

You believe that the two Persons consist of one who is YHWH and one who isn't. I believe that the two Persons are both YHWH. So this allows them to share the same titles because they are the same God, YHWH.

Please note that I never have claimed that the Father is Jesus, or that Jesus is the Father. Yes, they are separate Persons. We agree on this. What we disagree on is whether or not they are both YHWH.

Yes and we know from other scripture that's its impossible for Jesus to be YHWH (to which I has not been shown to you yet). Again the only thing that's making you deny it is in the details.

I don't agree with your viewpoint because I am convinced that Scripture does declare Jesus to be YHWH.

Maybe you missed my earlier post, so let me repost something I posted earlier. I'll add in more comments this time to make it clearer, and I'll break it down into separate posts:
There is only one God, and that is YHWH. The Bible identifies Jesus as God, therefore it is identifying Jesus as YHWH.

Isaiah 44:5-7 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]This one will say, “I am the LORD'S,”
another will be called by the name of Jacob,
yet another will write on the hand, “The LORD'S,”
and adopt the name of Israel.


[SUP]6 [/SUP]Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
I am the first and I am the last;
besides me there is no god.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Who is like me? Let them proclaim it,
let them declare and set it forth before me.
Who has announced from of old the things to come?[SUP][a][/SUP]
Let them tell us[SUP][b][/SUP] what is yet to be.

Questions to ponder before reading the next one:
1.) Who is speaking here?
2.) Who is the first and last?
3.) Who is the King of Israel?
4.) Who is Israel's Redeemer?

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Isaiah 48:11-13 (NASB)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it,
for why should my name[SUP][a][/SUP] be profaned?
My glory I will not give to another.


[SUP]12 [/SUP]Listen to me, O Jacob,
and Israel, whom I called:
I am He; I am the first,
and I am the last.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]My hand laid the foundation of the earth,
and my right hand spread out the heavens;
when I summon them,
they stand at attention.

Questions to answer regarding Isaiah 48:11-13:
1.) Who is speaking here? (You may, of course look at all of Isaiah 48 to answer this question. I only quoted part of it here)
2.) Will the speaker give His own glory to someone who is not the speaker?
3.) Who is the first and last?

I'll let you catch up and respond to these questions from these two chapters before moving on.

 

[Bowman]

In the New Testament, however, most translations fail to make that distinction, although some Bibles do in a few cases. The word for worship (most often one in our case) is "Proskyneo" it can mean either Worship (Godlike worship) or to pay Homage/Obeisance to one of higher authority or as a means of respect. What you'll find in the NT is nowhere does is tell us to worship Jesus or to pray to him, this all needs to be read into scripture. However most trinitrains don't know this fact so when they read that Jesus was worshiped they don't realize it was Worship in it's fullest sense but rather Homage to Jesus.

So…

You just finished stating that the original languages had no bearing at all on your comprehension of scripture…but NOW it does when you think that it benefits your world-view…?!

 

[NWL]

So…

You just finished stating that the original languages had no bearing at all on your comprehension of scripture…but NOW it does when you think that it benefits your world-view…?!

Hi again Bowman. You obviously misunderstood my previous statements towards you. Not once did I say that the original languages had no bearing in scripture, I simply stated that its not completely necessary to study the original its its entirety. Because of the modern time we live in we can see scholarly works of many translators who come from all walks of life with all different belief back grounds, because of this the isn't a need for everyone or anyone to study the original to the depth as some people do because of the many many different references of insight which they can look toward.

No doubt studying the originals texts can prove beneficial, but again its not necessary in these modern times. My original comments which troubled you are below so that you can try to better understand what I meant.

The meaning of the original texts cannot only be understood by studying the original in modern days, neither is it a requirement. Translators also do a good job of translating from the original so much so that we have a many verity of interpretation of scripture as to get a good impression of what the OT and NT writers were trying to express.