The Rapture: And Other Silly Things Christians Get Consumed With

[PlainWord]

Your chart lumps 1 Thess 4 and 5 together. And 2 Thess has the "Restrainer being removed" pre-trib evidence.

Rightfully so as both chapters go together. Remember, it is a letter, not a book. There were no chapters or verses as it was being written. 1 Thes Chapters 4-5 totally go together just as does 2 Thes Chapters 1-2.

As for the Restrainer being removed, when does this event occur in the context of the lesson?

 

[Cycel]

I was thirteen years old when I first got saved.... My mother was a rock-solid Christian. If she walked out of a room without me seeing her leave, I was terrified that the Rapture had taken her and left me behind. I tried to keep tabs on my mom at all times. If she went anywhere, I went with her.... Being a young Christian was, uh, great! Sorta.

I recall hearing the story of a woman, who had a very negative 'Christian' experience when she was about eight years old. She couldn't find her mother or any other family member in the house when she got up one morning and for a terrifying few minutes thought the Rapture had taken place and she had been left behind. Eventually she located her mother doing chores in the backyard. The experience, however, eventually led to her becoming an atheist. Richard Dawkins has stated that he thinks telling children they could go to Hell is a form of child abuse. I think it was on his website that I read of this woman's story.

 

[konroh]

Rev. 1 has two parts, this is gross misinterpretation.

7 Behold , he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


Clearly a picture of the Second coming, but we don't have the loud voice and trumpet linked to this! Verse 8 ends John's intro to the book, then he explains his first vision by referencing a voice and trumpet. He then sees the picture of Jesus as He's described with the message to the seven churches. Notice the Amens at the end of verses 6 and 7. Each of theses are completed statements.

What is interesting is that when John sees the vision of Jesus there is a loud voice like a trumpet, but we can't definitively link v. 8 with the rest of the vision of chapter one. This is a vision that compelled John to write the book of Revelation, it's not a vision of what the Second Coming is! How can you say this?

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Again you misunderstand. John is not saying he definitively sees "all things that will happen." Everything that he sees is definitively the word of God and of the testimony of Jesus christ. John's vision is the fullest account of the future, but it is not everything that will take place.

I believe there are clear allusions to the Rapture in the picture of saints being in heaven, the promise of "kept from the hour (the very time period) of tribulation that will come upon the whole earth" and the illustrative nature of the beginning of chapter 4, where John is taken to heaven "after these things." What things? After the message to the seven churches, the dispensation of the Church. I'm not going to force the Rapture into chapter four, but I think there is a natural picture of it.

Let's review 1 Thessalonians. The first three chapters are personal and historical, about Paul and his relationship to the Thessalonians and their growth. Then 4:1 1Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more.

This begins a section that goes thru verse 8.

Verse 9 is a new topic: 9Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for anyone to write to you
Paul introduces this with the Greek words Peri de, now concerning. This goes thru verse 12

Verse 13, new topic, again with the Greek word peri, concerning those who are asleep in Jesus, this goes thru verse 18.

Now notice again, ch. 5:1, new topic, again introduced with peri de, Now concerning the times and epochs, the day of the Lord. This is a clear linguistic and topical break that is not based on a chapter division, it's based on the Greek text!

Pre-trib theorists are not trying to make up what isn't there. We are reading the clear breaks that Paul is making in his discussion.

The restrainer is removed before the man of lawlessness is revealed. This must be before he opposes and exalts himself above every so-called God. In other words, it must be before the mid-point of the tribulation. In fact the Restrainer is removed before the lawless one is even revealed! So before the beginning of the Tribulation, Daniel's 70th week! I'm not making this stuff up!

Then notice Paul's concluding remarks. 2 thess 2:13But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is hope here. Paul doesn't emphasize that they will endure the Tribulation. He emphasizes that they are beloved, chosen from the beginning for deliverance, to gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[konroh]

As to belief in the scariness of being left behind making one an atheist. That is a logical fallacy known as guilt by association. There are also many post-trib theorists who are scared of going through the Tribulation, hoping they won't fall away, and then there are those who think that their salvation depends on them not falling away, and others who are so proud that they will endure the Tribulation and arrogant because of it.

The knife cuts on all sides.

 

[Fishbait]

If the rapture is real and does occur I hope you're not witness to millions of people that have vanished. Reading "The Rapture Bogey Man" over again may not explain where all the people have gone. My advice to you is to be sure, when boarding an airplane, that the piolt's aren't Christian. In a blink of an eye you may find them going up...and you going down.

 

[UriahSmith1844]

The Rapture is not even in the Bible. It was a theory dreamed up by the Jesuits.

Id you want to understand this, please watch the video:

[video=youtube;zlxWdO9pWPY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlxWdO9pWPY[/video]

 

[Mindwrencher]

Can anyone find the word "Rapture" in the bible anywhere? I cannot find the word anywhere, even with concordances. So help , me out and tell me where the word "Rapture" is found in the text anywhere in the bible.
As I understand it, the "Rapture" refers to a concept or idea based upon combinations of various scriptures. It is one of the most prevalent teachings in Christendom today. I can see how that the book of Revelation and other passages are probably dual prophecies, with fulfillment close at hand and another fulfillment further down the road of time. But the timing of all the various scriptures is problematic to supporting the concept of any rapture, IMHO.
Does the bible mention any third or fourth comings of Christ? I see mentions of a second coming, but that third coming is like a fantasy. Please help me with this too: How does a third coming of Christ work into the "millennium" or the "rapture"? How many "comings" of Jesus will there be?
I am being totally honest here and am hoping for honesty in return, and not some ridicule or humiliating comments.

 

[faroukfarouk]

The word Rapture means 'caught up', as in 1 Thess. 4.

 

[Elin]

Can anyone find the word "Rapture" in the bible anywhere? I cannot find the word anywhere, even with concordances. So help , me out and tell me where the word "Rapture" is found in the text anywhere in the bible.

It is the English translation of the Latin which is a translation of the Greek.
You won't find it in a concordance for it is not a translation of Greek.

And it sounds like you are using the term "rapture" according to its popular erroneous meaning,
rather than according to its Biblical meaning.

You won't find the popular erroneous meaning in Scripture either.

 

[faroukfarouk]

We need to look at words as they occur in Scripture and study their meaning.

I think the very title of the thread is expressing a notion such as :"I want to mock dispensationalists; who do you want to mock?". But it's preferable to do serious study of words in context in Scripture.

 

[PlainWord]

Rev. 1 has two parts, this is gross misinterpretation.

7 Behold , he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


Clearly a picture of the Second coming, but we don't have the loud voice and trumpet linked to this! Verse 8 ends John's intro to the book, then he explains his first vision by referencing a voice and trumpet. He then sees the picture of Jesus as He's described with the message to the seven churches. Notice the Amens at the end of verses 6 and 7. Each of theses are completed statements.

What is interesting is that when John sees the vision of Jesus there is a loud voice like a trumpet, but we can't definitively link v. 8 with the rest of the vision of chapter one. This is a vision that compelled John to write the book of Revelation, it's not a vision of what the Second Coming is! How can you say this?

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Again you misunderstand. John is not saying he definitively sees "all things that will happen." Everything that he sees is definitively the word of God and of the testimony of Jesus christ. John's vision is the fullest account of the future, but it is not everything that will take place.

I believe there are clear allusions to the Rapture in the picture of saints being in heaven, the promise of "kept from the hour (the very time period) of tribulation that will come upon the whole earth" and the illustrative nature of the beginning of chapter 4, where John is taken to heaven "after these things." What things? After the message to the seven churches, the dispensation of the Church. I'm not going to force the Rapture into chapter four, but I think there is a natural picture of it.

Let's review 1 Thessalonians. The first three chapters are personal and historical, about Paul and his relationship to the Thessalonians and their growth. Then 4:1 1Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more.

This begins a section that goes thru verse 8.

Verse 9 is a new topic: 9Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for anyone to write to you
Paul introduces this with the Greek words Peri de, now concerning. This goes thru verse 12

Verse 13, new topic, again with the Greek word peri, concerning those who are asleep in Jesus, this goes thru verse 18.

Now notice again, ch. 5:1, new topic, again introduced with peri de, Now concerning the times and epochs, the day of the Lord. This is a clear linguistic and topical break that is not based on a chapter division, it's based on the Greek text!

Pre-trib theorists are not trying to make up what isn't there. We are reading the clear breaks that Paul is making in his discussion.

The restrainer is removed before the man of lawlessness is revealed. This must be before he opposes and exalts himself above every so-called God. In other words, it must be before the mid-point of the tribulation. In fact the Restrainer is removed before the lawless one is even revealed! So before the beginning of the Tribulation, Daniel's 70th week! I'm not making this stuff up!

Then notice Paul's concluding remarks. 2 thess 2:13But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is hope here. Paul doesn't emphasize that they will endure the Tribulation. He emphasizes that they are beloved, chosen from the beginning for deliverance, to gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You are overthinking this. You don't have to and shouldn't apply your logic (man's) to God's Word. God's Word is NOT written for the scholar to interpret to the less intelligent, it is written so ALL may understand. We are taught clearly and multiple places that the Lord returns AFTER the Tribulation of those day. There is NOT ONE SINGLE PASSAGE placing His return sooner.

As for there being a break (change in topics) between 1 Thes 5:1 and 1 Thes 5:2, you are dreaming or wishful thinking. The "RAPTURE BELIEF" is not found or taught as a stand alone teaching. It was invented by a man named John Nelson Darby in the 1830 after listening to the rantings of one Margaret MacDonald. The Rapture doctrine "twists" scripture, ignores context, takes out-of-context passages they like, and merges passages that don't belong together all in an effort to "prove" something that isn't taught.

The funny thing to me is these same Christian Fundamentalists (the driving force behind the Rapture doctrine) claim to have a pure doctrine. They would never allow, accept or espouse the level of contortion on any other doctrine except this one. Wolves have crept in people. They are wearing sheep's clothing. BEWARE and reject these false teachings and stand firmly on the Word of God, just as it is written!! I beseech thee.

 

[Tongue-talker]

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." 1 John 3:2-3

 

[Tongue-talker]

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with him in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18.

 

[Elin]

You are overthinking this. You don't have to and shouldn't apply your logic (man's) to God's Word. God's Word is NOT written for the scholar to interpret to the less intelligent, it is written so ALL may understand. We are taught clearly and multiple places that the Lord returns AFTER the Tribulation of those day. There is NOT ONE SINGLE PASSAGE placing His return sooner.

As for there being a break (change in topics) between 1 Thes 5:1 and 1 Thes 5:2, you are dreaming or wishful thinking. The "RAPTURE BELIEF" is not found or taught as a stand alone teaching. It was invented by a man named John Nelson Darby in the 1830 after listening to the rantings of one Margaret MacDonald. The Rapture doctrine "twists" scripture, ignores context, takes out-of-context passages they like, and merges passages that don't belong together all in an effort to "prove" something that isn't taught.

The funny thing to me is these same Christian Fundamentalists (the driving force behind the Rapture doctrine) claim to have a pure doctrine. They would never allow, accept or espouse the level of contortion on any other doctrine except this one. Wolves have crept in people. They are wearing sheep's clothing. BEWARE and reject these false teachings and stand firmly on the Word of God, just as it is written!! I beseech thee.

What is the meaning of "rapture" as you are using it here?

 

[PlainWord]

What is the meaning of "rapture" as you are using it here?

The main stream rapture view is:

1. Christ returns before the Tribulation.
2. Christ gathers His living believers in the sky.
3. All living believers are transformed into spiritual, incorruptible bodies.
4. Christ returns with said transformed believers to heaven.
5. All those left on earth at this moment are unsaved and will enter the Great Tribulation.
6. All Saints, including the Elect, that are mentioned in the Bible during the Tribulation are recent converts to the faith.
7. God then subjects the world to terrible tribulation to include the 7 seal, 7 trumpet and 7 bowl judgments.
8. All warnings as to the correct order of "Christs" appearances apply only to those left behind.

The problem with the above is NONE OF IT IS SCRIPTURAL and NONE of it is true!!!! (with the possible exception of #2). The above views are patently false and are the lies of Satan which he will use in the following ways:

1. Discredit the church once the False One appears and the church is still here not having been Raptured.
2. Cause many in the church to wrongly think the AntiChrist is the real Christ since they wrongly believe the real Christ comes first - Thus causing many to be deceived into worshiping him as the true Christ.
3. Do nothing to prepare to live through a period where one cannot buy or sell without the Mark of the Beast because we are going to fly away.

The REAL Rapture is as follows:

1. Christ returns AFTER the Tribulation.
2. Christ returns AFTER the AntiChrist has deceived most of the world.
3. When Christ returns, he gathers his remnant, the small group of Christians still alive.
4. The gathering occurs either in the clouds of the sky or atop a mountain (Zion or Mt. of Olives) on a foggy day.
5. No living person is transformed.
6. The evil forces are destroyed at Armageddon. Christ reigns for 1,000 years. He restores the earth to Pre-Flood state where people live a very long time.
7. The Great Tribulation is the period of intense Satanic mind control where everyone must worship him or be subject to death.

 

[Fishbait]

I was thirteen years old when I first got saved. My mom took me to an Assembly of God church that was playing the Rapture movie A Thief in the Night. We didn’t attend the church but went to watch the movie. The movie quite literally scared the hell out of me. Or into me. I’m not sure which.
In the movie, Christians are taken to heaven in the Rapture and non-Christians are left to deal with the aftermath. Scary, scary things happen to the folks left behind, including decapitation for becoming a Christian. At the end of the movie, the pastor gave an altar call and I practically ran up front to get saved. I wanted no part with guillotines or the Antichrist.
I spent the next several months terrified that I, nonetheless, would be left behind. My mother was a rock-solid Christian. If she walked out of a room without me seeing her leave, I was terrified that the Rapture had taken her and left me behind. I tried to keep tabs on my mom at all times. If she went anywhere, I went with her.
I kept telling myself that even if I got left behind, there was no way I would take the mark of the Beast. I constantly psyched myself up, assuring myself that when they stuck my head in the guillotine, I would never deny Christ. I would let them take my head off. Being a young Christian was, uh, great! Sorta.
Many years have passed and I don't believe in the Rapture anymore. Prior to the 20th Century, Christians never even talked about the Rapture. In the 20th Century, it became HUGE. It's so inconsistent with what scripture actually teaches. And, no, you don't lose your salvation for not believing in the Rapture.
I like to poke fun at some of the crazy things Christians believe. I wrote a chapter called "The Rapture Bogey Man." You can read the book free (it's free at Smashwords.com). It's called: "iDoubt: When Faith Falters." Some people get deeply offended when I mention a free book. Relax. It's free. It costs nobody nothing. Just enjoy it if you want. If not, don't sweat it. I really poke fun at some other silly things Christians believe, like Y2K was the end of the world, etc. Enjoy.

Regardless if you believe in The Rapture or not please be safe and don't take any chances. Before boarding an airplane ask the pilot and co-pilot if they're Christians and if they believe in the Rapture. You may not lose your salvation but you could be in for one scary ride. In the "blink" of an eye they could be going up and you could be going down.

Why don't you use your talents to bring more people to Christ instead of pointing out "some of the crazy things Christians believe"? That way if there is a Rapture you'll not feel so bad about writing "The Rapture Bogey Man" while you're sent like a rocket to meet the one you claim taught a mistake.

People that point out Christian faults are a dime a dozen and grace our TV'S and news media everyday. We even find articles and post about "some of the crazy things Christians believe" here in a Christian Chat room. If Christ stood on a rock or a tree when He said this or that or He meant this or that when He said this or that makes little difference to a soul that's headed for hell. Make the point that He came here to die for our sins. Use the time and your talent you have left to bring those that don't know Him to Christ. When you hear the words coming from Christ, "I am well pleased with you." then you'll know that all the 'likes' and 'rep-power' points in the world mean nothing at all.

 

[Elin]

I guess I would like to hear your explanation of what allegorizing and spiritualizing mean, because to me, to interpret something as an allegory means finding a hidden meaning that is not really there.

The linguistic meanings are:

spiritualizing = interpreting physical matters to have a spiritual meaning, and not just the normal meaning

allegorizing = describing one thing under the image of another

This is different from a metaphor.

An allegory is an extended metaphor.

You use 1 Cor. 10 as an example. Paul says
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

Paul is not spiritualizing their experience. He's showing that the experience they did have was spiritual!

Paul is giving a spiritual meaning, in addition to the normal meaning, of these particular events
of the cloud and the Red Sea.

Paul does not interpret all meaning of Scripture only literally; i.e., according to the normal sense of the words.

There is no Biblical basis for interpreting the meaning of all Scripture only literally; i.e., according to
the normal sense of the words, for the NT writers do not interpret the meaning of all Scripture only literally.

Paul presents a non-literal interpretation of Ex 14:22, 16:4, 17:6.

Likewise, many interpret prophetic riddles to have a non-literal meaning.
There is no Biblical basis for asserting prophecy must be understood literally,
according to the normal sense of the words.

And the use of this false hermeneutic yields interpretations which contradict
the certain and unequivocal teaching of the NT.

 

[Elin]

The main stream rapture view is:

1. Christ returns before the Tribulation.
2. Christ gathers His living believers in the sky.
3. All living believers are transformed into spiritual, incorruptible bodies.
4. Christ returns with said transformed believers to heaven.
5. All those left on earth at this moment are unsaved and will enter the Great Tribulation.
6. All Saints, including the Elect, that are mentioned in the Bible during the Tribulation are recent converts to the faith.
7. God then subjects the world to terrible tribulation to include the 7 seal, 7 trumpet and 7 bowl judgments.
8. All warnings as to the correct order of "Christs" appearances apply only to those left behind.

The problem with the above is NONE OF IT IS SCRIPTURAL and NONE of it is true!!!! (with the possible exception of #2). The above views are patently false and are the lies of Satan which he will use in the following ways:

1. Discredit the church once the False One appears and the church is still here not having been Raptured.
2. Cause many in the church to wrongly think the AntiChrist is the real Christ since they wrongly believe the real Christ comes first - Thus causing many to be deceived into worshiping him as the true Christ.
3. Do nothing to prepare to live through a period where one cannot buy or sell without the Mark of the Beast because we are going to fly away.

The REAL Rapture is as follows:

1. Christ returns AFTER the Tribulation.
2. Christ returns AFTER the AntiChrist has deceived most of the world.
3. When Christ returns, he gathers his remnant, the small group of Christians still alive.
4. The gathering occurs either in the clouds of the sky or atop a mountain (Zion or Mt. of Olives) on a foggy day.
5. No living person is transformed.
6. The evil forces are destroyed at Armageddon. Christ reigns for 1,000 years. He restores the earth to Pre-Flood state where people live a very long time.
7. The Great Tribulation is the period of intense Satanic mind control where everyone must worship him or be subject to death.

I find no certain and unequivocal NT teaching for your points 3-7.

It is all based in uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles,
which contradict certain and unequivocal NT teaching.

 

[PlainWord]

I find no certain and unequivocal NT teaching for your points 3-7.

It is all based in uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles,
which contradict certain and unequivocal NT teaching.

That's because you have accepted false doctrine and based on that doctrine, you twist the rest of scripture to fit it. I note that you have nor provided support for your beliefs, but here is some of the scriptural basis for my points 3-7.

3. When Christ returns, he gathers his remnant, the small group of Christians still alive.

Romans 9:27
Romans 11:5
Revelation 11:13
Revelation 12:17

4. The gathering occurs either in the clouds of the sky or atop a mountain (Zion or Mt. of Olives) on a foggy day.

Matthew 24:30-31
1 Thes 4:17
Rev 14:1
Zech 14:4
John 14:3

5. No living person is transformed (at the Pre-Trib Rapture).

1 Cor 15:44, 48, 50-54
Rev 21:27

6. The evil forces are destroyed at Armageddon. Christ reigns for 1,000 years. He restores the earth to Pre-Flood state where people live a very long time.

Hosea 6:2
Isaiah 65:20
2 Peter 3:8
Rev 20:4-6

7. The Great Tribulation is the period of intense Satanic mind control where everyone must worship him or be subject to death.

Mat 24:21-31
2 Thes 2:1-6
Rev 3:10
Rev 13:15

I hope this helps?

 

[faroukfarouk]

It's helpful to distinguish between the church and Israel; between the rapture and events relating to tribulation saints.