The Rapture: And Other Silly Things Christians Get Consumed With

[starfield]

It's helpful to distinguish between the church and Israel; between the rapture and events relating to tribulation saints.

Doing so leads to two second comings of Christ, a futurised Daniel 70th week, multiple resurrections and final judgments, an earthly millennial age, all of which are unknown to scripture.

It's helpful to distinguish between the church and Israel;...

Galatians 3:28-29

Does the bible make a distinction between Israel and the church:

"At the heart of a currently popular end–times theology is the belief that God has two distinct people—one of whom must be raptured before God can continue His plan with the other. Rather than teaching that God has two categories of people, Scripture reveals only one chosen people who form one covenant community, beautifully symbolized by one cultivated olive tree.

First, far from communicating a distinction between Israel and the church, the Scriptures from beginning to end reveal that God has only ever had one chosen people purchased “from every tribe and tongue and language and nation” (Rev.5:9). As Paul explains, the “mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus” (Eph.3:6, emphasis added). Indeed, the precise terminology used to describe the children of Israel in the Old Testament is ascribed to the church in the New Testament. Peter calls them “a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God” (1Pet.2:9). Ultimately, they are the one chosen people of God, not by virtue of their genealogical relationship to Abraham, but by virtue of their genuine relationship to “the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God” (1Pet.2:4)."
​

Source: Does the Bible Make a Distinction between Israel and the Church? | Christian Research Institute <-- Click

 

[Elin]

That's because you have accepted false doctrine and based on that doctrine, you twist the rest of scripture to fit it. I note that you have nor provided support for your beliefs,

Which beliefs are those?

 

[Elin]

That's because you have accepted false doctrine and based on that doctrine, you twist the rest of scripture to fit it. I note that you have nor provided support for your beliefs, but here is some of the scriptural basis for my points 3-7.

3. When Christ returns, he gathers his remnant, the small group of Christians still alive.

Romans 9:27
Romans 11:5
Revelation 11:13
Revelation 12:17

4. The gathering occurs either in the clouds of the sky or atop a mountain (Zion or Mt. of Olives) on a foggy day.

Matthew 24:30-31
1 Thes 4:17
Rev 14:1
Zech 14:4
John 14:3

5. No living person is transformed (at the Pre-Trib Rapture).

Please provide a Scripture which specifically locates the rapture before the tribulation.

Then I will address your other points.

1 Cor 15:44, 48, 50-54
Rev 21:27

6. The evil forces are destroyed at Armageddon. Christ reigns for 1,000 years. He restores the earth to Pre-Flood state where people live a very long time.

Hosea 6:2
Isaiah 65:20
2 Peter 3:8
Rev 20:4-6

7. The Great Tribulation is the period of intense Satanic mind control where everyone must worship him or be subject to death.

Mat 24:21-31
2 Thes 2:1-6
Rev 3:10
Rev 13:15

I hope this helps?

I'm stuck at a pre-trib rapture.

I need confirmation of a pre-trib rapture from Scripture which specifically locates it before the tribulation.

 

[PlainWord]

It's helpful to distinguish between the church and Israel; between the rapture and events relating to tribulation saints.

There is no such thing as a Tribulation Saint. Nowhere will you find any teaching in the Bible that distinguishes between a Saint and a Tribulation (Era) Saint. This is a false concept spread by those who have fallen for Satan's Pre-Trib Rapture lie.

Christ does NOT teach that He comes back before the Tribulation. In fact, Christ ONLY teaches that He returns AFTER the Tribulation of those days. Therefore Christ warns us (ALL SAINTS) not to be deceived by the False Christ(s) or their doctrines.

Christ mentions his Elect in Mat 24 and He warns them. See below. The Elect we learn from other passages were chosen before the foundation of the earth. The Elect therefore CANNOT be on earth during the Tribulation if there is an earlier rapture.

Mat 24:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


[SUP]22 [/SUP]And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.


[SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


[SUP]25 [/SUP]Behold, I have told you before.


[SUP]26 [/SUP]Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


Paul provides the exact same warning.

2 Thes 2:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul is NOT warning some newly converted Christians who came to the Lord after some rapture. If (and there isn't) but if there is to be rapture, that would mean that at that moment, there would be ZERO Christians left on earth. That would be impossible because Paul teaches a falling away, not a huge revival.

Further we know that a great multitude of Christians are killed DURING the Tribulation from Rev 7. For this multitude, that nobody can number, to be killed during the Great Tribulation, they have to be on earth. How can they be on earth if they were raptured?

Why warn us about the timing of the Man of Sin and not to be deceived if we aren't going to be here?

 

[faroukfarouk]

There is no such thing as a Tribulation Saint. Nowhere will you find any teaching in the Bible that distinguishes between a Saint and a Tribulation (Era) Saint. This is a false concept spread by those who have fallen for Satan's Pre-Trib Rapture lie.

Christ does NOT teach that He comes back before the Tribulation. In fact, Christ ONLY teaches that He returns AFTER the Tribulation of those days. Therefore Christ warns us (ALL SAINTS) not to be deceived by the False Christ(s) or their doctrines.

Christ mentions his Elect in Mat 24 and He warns them. See below. The Elect we learn from other passages were chosen before the foundation of the earth. The Elect therefore CANNOT be on earth during the Tribulation if there is an earlier rapture.

Mat 24:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


[SUP]22 [/SUP]And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.


[SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


[SUP]25 [/SUP]Behold, I have told you before.


[SUP]26 [/SUP]Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


Paul provides the exact same warning.

2 Thes 2:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul is NOT warning some newly converted Christians who came to the Lord after some rapture. If (and there isn't) but if there is to be rapture, that would mean that at that moment, there would be ZERO Christians left on earth. That would be impossible because Paul teaches a falling away, not a huge revival.

Further we know that a great multitude of Christians are killed DURING the Tribulation from Rev 7. For this multitude, that nobody can number, to be killed during the Great Tribulation, they have to be on earth. How can they be on earth if they were raptured?

...but the context of Matthew 24 and that of 1 Thess. 4 seems rather different.

In 1 Thess. 4 Paul is addressing the church, about a meeting 'in the air'.

 

[PlainWord]

Please provide a Scripture which specifically locates the rapture before the tribulation.

Then I will address your other points.


I'm stuck at a pre-trib rapture.

I need confirmation of a pre-trib rapture from Scripture which specifically locates it before the tribulation.

THERE IS NO RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION - THUS NO VERSE.

 

[PlainWord]

...but the context of Matthew 24 and that of 1 Thess. 4 seems rather different.

In 1 Thess. 4 Paul is addressing the church, about a meeting 'in the air'.

DIFFERENT?!?!?!? They are the same, nearly identical.

[TABLE="width: 293"]
[TR]
[TD]Event[/TD]
[TD]1 Thes 4-5[/TD]
[TD]Mat 24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Saints coming from heaven[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lord Coming[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Angel(s) Present[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Voice of Anchangel[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]A Shout/ Loud Voice[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alive Caught up/Gathered[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Meet in clouds in "air"[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Always be with the Lord[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Timing Given[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]A Trumpet[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Asleep Proceed Living[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Concept of Vengeance[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Watch/Be Ready[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Comes as a Thief[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



Paul just provides additional details...

 

[faroukfarouk]

THERE IS NO RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION - THUS NO VERSE.

The great tribulation is a unique event on earth. The church being caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess. 4) answers to a rather different Who? Where? When?

 

[PlainWord]

The great tribulation is a unique event on earth. The church being caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess. 4) answers to a rather different Who? Where? When?

What makes you think 1 Thes 4 is describing an event before the Tribulation???

Look at the context. Remember Paul wrote a LETTER, not a book. Thus there were no verses and chapters. Read the passage again in context.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.


For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Notice Paul defines the event as "THE DAY OF THE LORD?????" Notice Paul is talking to his brethren??? His brethren are being comforted as Paul teaches that the Day of the Lord will not come upon them as a thief in the night. Now why would Paul be telling them about the Day of the Lord if they were to be taken in a Pre-Trib Rapture.

Who is the master deceiver??? Satan.

Again, Christ NEVER teaches of an earlier or additional return. He only teaches one return and locates it after the Tribulation. If He was really coming earlier, don't you think He would have told us???? Does Christ indeed to mislead His people??? Of course not.

Mark 13:

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

John 15:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Since Christ tells us that He has told us all things, just why would Christ leave out a HUGE event like the Pre-Trib Rapture if it were true????


Who is a wolf in sheep's clothing walking among us seeking those to devour? Who is the master lying and murder?? Who would benefit from misleading the church into the correct order of appearances between Christ and AntiChrist? Certainly not Jesus!!! If the real Christ comes first, who would then be deceived by the false Christ after witnessing the real Christ??

Wake up people. We are already 1 year into the 42 months of the False Prophet of Rev 13. The War of Ezek 38:39 is about to start.

 

[faroukfarouk]

What makes you think 1 Thes 4 is describing an event before the Tribulation???

Look at the context. Remember Paul wrote a LETTER, not a book. Thus there were no verses and chapters. Read the passage again in context.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.


For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Notice Paul defines the event as "THE DAY OF THE LORD?????" Notice Paul is talking to his brethren??? His brethren are being comforted as Paul teaches that the Day of the Lord will not come upon them as a thief in the night. Now why would Paul be telling them about the Day of the Lord if they were to be taken in a Pre-Trib Rapture.

Who is the master deceiver??? Satan.

Again, Christ NEVER teaches of an earlier or additional return. He only teaches one return and locates it after the Tribulation. If He was really coming earlier, don't you think He would have told us???? Does Christ indeed to mislead His people??? Of course not.

Mark 13:

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

John 15:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Since Christ tells us that He has told us all things, just why would Christ leave out a HUGE event like the Pre-Trib Rapture if it were true????


Who is a wolf in sheep's clothing walking among us seeking those to devour? Who is the master lying and murder?? Who would benefit from misleading the church into the correct order of appearances between Christ and AntiChrist? Certainly not Jesus!!! If the real Christ comes first, who would then be deceived by the false Christ after witnessing the real Christ??

Wake up people. We are already 1 year into the 42 months of the False Prophet of Rev 13. The War of Ezek 38:39 is about to start.

But the occurrence of sudden destruction for unbelievers, and the prior, being 'caught up' for the church waiting for the Lord Jesus for the meeting in the air, are rather different.

In Scripture, 'tribulation' is used in different ways. Where the Lord Jesus says, 'In the world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world'; is rather different from the 'great tribulation' of Matthew 24, which, as the chapter very clear says, is a unique, unprecedented event.

 

[PlainWord]

But the occurrence of sudden destruction for unbelievers, and the prior, being 'caught up' for the church waiting for the Lord Jesus for the meeting in the air, are rather different.

In Scripture, 'tribulation' is used in different ways. Where the Lord Jesus says, 'In the world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world'; is rather different from the 'great tribulation' of Matthew 24, which, as the chapter very clear says, is a unique, unprecedented event.

No, not prior...

"But of the times and seasons..." refers back to the previous topic. It doesn't look ahead to a new topic. Who starts a new thought by using the word, "BUT?" Again, why would Paul's brethren be on the earth for the day of the Lord if there was a rapture????

Now read 2 Thes Chapters 1 and 2. Paul is adding more clarification...

To believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture one has to believe that Paul is teaching something brand new that Jesus never taught. Is that what you really think? Go back and read Mark 13 in context. Jesus is discussing the end times. He clearly is discussing His Second Coming. Nowhere does Jesus mention an earlier return where He takes the church off to heaven. In the context of this lesson, Jesus states clearly:

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

All means ALL. Jesus did not leave anything out. Jesus is God. Jesus would know if he was coming back once or twice. If Jesus says ALL THINGS, He means ALL THINGS. Read Mark 13. There is no rapture, just like in Mat 24. No Rapture.

 

[PlainWord]

The phrase "Great Tribulation" appears just 3 times in the entire Bible. The context is clear. It is the Great Temptation of Satan working through his False Christ(s). Go read Mat 24. Rev 3:22 and Rev 7. Those are the passages. The warnings are for believers, not the unbelieving. The unbeliever already belongs to Satan... Thus the unbeliever is deceived already!!!

 

[faroukfarouk]

The phrase "Great Tribulation" appears just 3 times in the entire Bible. The context is clear. It is the Great Temptation of Satan working through his False Christ(s). Go read Mat 24. Rev 3:22 and Rev 7. Those are the passages. The warnings are for believers, not the unbelieving. The unbeliever already belongs to Satan...

There IS a distinction between the tribulation principle which the Lord Jesus speaks of ('In the world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world'); and the unique tribulation event spoken of in Matthew 24.

 

[Elin]

That's because you have accepted false doctrine and based on that doctrine, you twist the rest of scripture to fit it. I note that you have nor provided support for your beliefs, but here is some of the scriptural basis for my points 3-7.

3. When Christ returns, he gathers his remnant, the small group of Christians still alive.

Romans 9:27
Romans 11:5
Revelation 11:13
Revelation 12:17

4. The gathering occurs either in the clouds of the sky or atop a mountain (Zion or Mt. of Olives) on a foggy day.

Matthew 24:30-31
1 Thes 4:17
Rev 14:1
Zech 14:4
John 14:3

5. No living person is transformed (at the Pre-Trib Rapture).

Please provide a Scripture which specifically locates the rapture before the tribulation.

Then I will address your other points.

I'm stuck at a pre-trib rapture.

I need confirmation of a pre-trib rapture from Scripture which specifically locates it before the tribulation.

THERE IS NO RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION - THUS NO VERSE.

I understood you to state above that there was.

 

[PlainWord]

There IS a distinction between the tribulation principle which the Lord Jesus speaks of ('In the world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world'); and the unique tribulation event spoken of in Matthew 24.

Not arguing that. I am talking about the Great Tribulation; the period of time where many, many Christians wrongly think the Church will be raptured and spared from.

 

[PlainWord]

I understood you to state above that there was.

I have never stated that the Lord comes before the Tribulation. Clearly he comes AFTER>

 

[Elin]

I have never stated that the Lord comes before the Tribulation. Clearly he comes AFTER>

That's because you have accepted false doctrine and based on that doctrine, you twist the rest of scripture to fit it. I note that
you have nor provided support for your beliefs,

Which beliefs are those?

Have you responded to this?

 

[preacha24_7]

Don't be deceived the rapture is for real and its really going to happen. Those who are born again don't have to worry about the false prophet or the mark of the beast. Only the people who haven't been born again will be left behind. That's their last chance to get born again before judgement day. You need to study your bible so you won't be fooled by Satan's lies. I'm telling you this because I care. Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement. New King James Version You also need to read what Jesus told his disciples before he went back to heaven. Matthew 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo I am with you always, even to the end of the age. That's God's promise to all Christians that he will never leave us or forsake us. Time for Christians to stop being afraid of the devil. Jesus kicked Satan's butt at calvary. How do you defeat Satan?? Its really simple. The power of the Holy Ghost, the name of Jesus, and the Word of God that's how you defeat Satan. Read revelations chapter 12 verse 11 they have defeated Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives even unto death. New King James Version I pray that God will help you grow in your knowledge and understanding of the bible because you sound like you're confused. God doesn't want his children to be confused. God bless and have a nice day. Preacha24-7

 

[Anonimous]

There is no such thing as a Tribulation Saint. Nowhere will you find any teaching in the Bible that distinguishes between a Saint and a Tribulation (Era) Saint. This is a false concept spread by those who have fallen for Satan's Pre-Trib Rapture lie.

Christ does NOT teach that He comes back before the Tribulation. In fact, Christ ONLY teaches that He returns AFTER the Tribulation of those days. Therefore Christ warns us (ALL SAINTS) not to be deceived by the False Christ(s) or their doctrines.

Christ mentions his Elect in Mat 24 and He warns them. See below. The Elect we learn from other passages were chosen before the foundation of the earth. The Elect therefore CANNOT be on earth during the Tribulation if there is an earlier rapture.

Mat 24:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


[SUP]22 [/SUP]And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.


[SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


[SUP]25 [/SUP]Behold, I have told you before.


[SUP]26 [/SUP]Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


Paul provides the exact same warning.

2 Thes 2:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul is NOT warning some newly converted Christians who came to the Lord after some rapture. If (and there isn't) but if there is to be rapture, that would mean that at that moment, there would be ZERO Christians left on earth. That would be impossible because Paul teaches a falling away, not a huge revival.

Further we know that a great multitude of Christians are killed DURING the Tribulation from Rev 7. For this multitude, that nobody can number, to be killed during the Great Tribulation, they have to be on earth. How can they be on earth if they were raptured?

Why warn us about the timing of the Man of Sin and not to be deceived if we aren't going to be here?[/QUOTE]


It only makes sense that Jesus was talking TO believers. He warns believers of what is to come. If the church was not to be here then He would have no reason to warn us.

 

[Jay1]

Great explanation and truthful. There is this false teaching that after the saints are caught up to heaven that those that remain will have seven years to repent, this is a very false and dangerous teaching. This teaching is nowhere in the Bible. The saints will go through the tribulation, at the end of the tribulation all saints will be raptured to heaven, the living wicked are destroyed by the brightness of Jesus's coming and the wicked dead stay dead for a thousand years (millennium). (2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 20:5-7). The earth will be a complete waste land after the saints are raptured (Jeremiah 4:23-26). Also close of probation (Revelation 22:11) no more changing sides. Good answer brother, God bless.