Dr. Charles Stanley

[damombomb]

I have always enjoyed his preaching, straight from the word...

 

[Skinski7]

[/COLOR]Yes, what do you think he did on the cross? He took the certificate of death against me, and paid it in full..

The Bible does not teach anywhere that Jesus paid our price in full. That is a 16th century doctrine made up by Reformed Theologians and it is commonly called Penal Substitution.

http://www.theopedia.com/Penal_substitutionary_atonement
Penal substitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The righteousness of God was declared to the world through Jesus Christ in that He was offered as a propitiatory or sin expiating offering to God on our behalf whereby our sins may be forgiven. We are redeemed from being in bondage to sin whereby we are at odds with God unto an obedient relationship with God where God is willing to forgive us our past rebellion.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The death of Christ has nothing whatsoever to do with any sin penalty being paid in our stead. That teaching is alien to the Scripture and is also extremely dangerous because it serves to give comfort to people who remain in rebellion to God that they have been reconciled when they have not.

Men like Charles Stanley are the wolves the Bible warns about who appear as lambs and who deceive many with their form of godliness rhetoric.

Jesus gave Himself for us to set us free from sin not to forensically justify us while we remain bonded and thus in service to it.

Paul taught obedience unto righteousness and righteousness unto holiness the end of which is eternal life. Paul taught that it is obedience from the heart which sets one free from the service of sin. Paul taught that we are saved by grace through faith, grace being the power of God which leads us and faith being the application of the grace in our lives. In other words if we obey God then we do not receive the grace of God in vain because we are working together with God.

 

[dcontroversal]

Try reading it the way it is meant,"justified by faith apart from the Jewish Law"

Oh I did and have...lets see.....WORKS or JEWISH LAW.....I remember the word WORKS....like I said you and your cousin MR. TWISTY add a word here or there, as well as twist scriptures out of context so as to teach doctrine that takes people straight to hell......good luck with your works....maybe you are one of those who instruct Christ in the day of judgment when you argue your right to heaven based upon your own works.....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh I did and have...lets see.....WORKS or JEWISH LAW.....I remember the word WORKS....like I said you and your cousin MR. TWISTY add a word here or there, as well as twist scriptures out of context so as to teach doctrine that takes people straight to hell......good luck with your works....maybe you are one of those who instruct Christ in the day of judgment when you argue your right to heaven based upon your own works.....

Ah yes, Lets see what a greek speaking person from Ephesians would have read when he saw the word work.

ἔργον, τό, (*ἔργω):—work, Hom., etc.; τὰ σαυτῆς ἔργα κόμιζε mind your own business, Hom.:
1. in Il. mostly of deeds of war, πολεμήϊα ἔργα Il., etc.; so, ἐν τῷ ἔργῳ during the action, Thuc.; ἔργου ἔχεσθαι to engage in battle, Id.
2. of works of industry, tilled lands, fields, farms, Hom.; οὔτε βοῶν οὔτʼ ἀνδρῶν ἔργα (cf. Virgils hominumque boumque labores), Il.; ἔργαἸθάκης the tilled lands of Ithaca, Od.; so in Att., τὰ κατʼ ἀγροὺς ἔργα, etc.:—then, generally, property, wealth, possessions, ἔργον ἀέξειν Od.
b. of womens work, weaving, Hom.
c. of other occupations, θαλάσσια ἔργα fishing, as a way of life, Od.; periphr., ἔργα δαιτός works of feasting, Il.; so, ἔργα θήρας, etc. en., etc.:—in Att. also of all kinds of works, such as mines, iron-works, Id., Dem.
3. a hard piece of work, a hard task, Il.: also, a shocking deed or act, Lat. facinus, Od.:—also, χερμάδιον λάβε Τυδείδης, μέγα ἔργον a huge mass, Il.
4. a deed, action, often, as opp. to ἔπος, deed, not word, Hom.
II. a thing, matter, πᾶν ἔργον in every point, Il.; ἄκουε τοὔργον Soph., etc.
III. pass. that which is wrought, a work, of the arms of Achilles, Il.; metal-work is called ἔργον Ἡφαίστοιο Od., etc.
2. the result of work, ἔργον χρημάτων profit on money, Dem.
IV. the following pecul. Att. phrases arise from signf.:
1. ἔργον ἐστί,
a. c. gen. pers. his business, his proper work, ἔργον ἀγαθοῦ πολίτου Plat.; so, σὸν ἔργον ἐστί it is your business, Aesch.
b. c. gen. rei, there is need of, use of a thing, Eur.
c. c. inf. it is hard work, difficult to do, πολὺ ἔργον ἂν εἴη διεξελθεῖν Xen., etc.; οὐκ ἔργον θρηνεῖσθαι ‘tis no use to lament, Soph.
2. ἔργα παρέχειν τινί to give one trouble, Ar.; ἔργον ἔχειν to take trouble, Xen.


Liddell, H. G. (1996). A lexicon: Abridged from Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English lexicon. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Nope. I see nothing in there reguarding the law

 

[Jabberjaw]

Ah yes, Lets see what a greek speaking person from Ephesians would have read when he saw the word work.

ἔργον, τό, (*ἔργω):—work, Hom., etc.; τὰ σαυτῆς ἔργα κόμιζε mind your own business, Hom.:
1. in Il. mostly of deeds of war, πολεμήϊα ἔργα Il., etc.; so, ἐν τῷ ἔργῳ during the action, Thuc.; ἔργου ἔχεσθαι to engage in battle, Id.
2. of works of industry, tilled lands, fields, farms, Hom.; οὔτε βοῶν οὔτʼ ἀνδρῶν ἔργα (cf. Virgils hominumque boumque labores), Il.; ἔργαἸθάκης the tilled lands of Ithaca, Od.; so in Att., τὰ κατʼ ἀγροὺς ἔργα, etc.:—then, generally, property, wealth, possessions, ἔργον ἀέξειν Od.
b. of womens work, weaving, Hom.
c. of other occupations, θαλάσσια ἔργα fishing, as a way of life, Od.; periphr., ἔργα δαιτός works of feasting, Il.; so, ἔργα θήρας, etc. en., etc.:—in Att. also of all kinds of works, such as mines, iron-works, Id., Dem.
3. a hard piece of work, a hard task, Il.: also, a shocking deed or act, Lat. facinus, Od.:—also, χερμάδιον λάβε Τυδείδης, μέγα ἔργον a huge mass, Il.
4. a deed, action, often, as opp. to ἔπος, deed, not word, Hom.
II. a thing, matter, πᾶν ἔργον in every point, Il.; ἄκουε τοὔργον Soph., etc.
III. pass. that which is wrought, a work, of the arms of Achilles, Il.; metal-work is called ἔργον Ἡφαίστοιο Od., etc.
2. the result of work, ἔργον χρημάτων profit on money, Dem.
IV. the following pecul. Att. phrases arise from signf.:
1. ἔργον ἐστί,
a. c. gen. pers. his business, his proper work, ἔργον ἀγαθοῦ πολίτου Plat.; so, σὸν ἔργον ἐστί it is your business, Aesch.
b. c. gen. rei, there is need of, use of a thing, Eur.
c. c. inf. it is hard work, difficult to do, πολὺ ἔργον ἂν εἴη διεξελθεῖν Xen., etc.; οὐκ ἔργον θρηνεῖσθαι ‘tis no use to lament, Soph.
2. ἔργα παρέχειν τινί to give one trouble, Ar.; ἔργον ἔχειν to take trouble, Xen.


Liddell, H. G. (1996). A lexicon: Abridged from Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English lexicon. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Nope. I see nothing in there reguarding the law

We can play the lexicon game :

Ephesians 2:9 (NKJV)
not of works, lest anyone should boast.

in Paul's writings εργα νομου, works demanded by and agreeing with the law (cf. Wieseler, commentary iib. d. Br. an d. Gal., p. 194ff): Romans 3:20,28; 9:32 Rec.; Galatians 2:16; 3:2,5,10; and simply εργα: Romans 4:2,6; 9:12 (11); Romans 9:32 G L T Tr WH; Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:9; 2 Timothy 1:9 (see δικαιοω, 3 b.). J. H. Thayer, trans., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1889)

All of the above passages deal with the Jewish Law.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Oh I did and have...lets see.....WORKS or JEWISH LAW.....I remember the word WORKS....like I said you and your cousin MR. TWISTY add a word here or there, as well as twist scriptures out of context so as to teach doctrine that takes people straight to hell......good luck with your works....maybe you are one of those who instruct Christ in the day of judgment when you argue your right to heaven based upon your own works.....

See post 325

 

[Stephen63]

In my early years I listened to Stanley, but no more. Why, do you ask? I'm not tellin'!...... you can't get any negative feedback if you don't, LOL!

But I will say this.....He's not worth 17 pages of arguements.....somebody wanna "argue" wit dat?

 

[der]

You gave a biblical, and smart reply. Well the Bible says in Acts 2.21 whosoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved. It's not talking about salvation from sins, but natural salvation. Salvation from sins is Mark 16.16 when Jesus said He that believes and is baptized will be saved. There is no contradiction in the word of God.

 

[konroh]

The Bible does not teach anywhere that Jesus paid our price in full. That is a 16th century doctrine made up by Reformed Theologians and it is commonly called Penal Substitution.

I can't help but think that Jesus when confronted with this idea would say, "Get thee behind me Satan."

Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

HOW IS THIS NOT PAID IN FULL?

Thank you Jesus.

 

[pastac]

In my early years I listened to Stanley, but no more. Why, do you ask? I'm not tellin'!...... you can't get any negative feedback if you don't, LOL!

But I will say this.....He's not worth 17 pages of arguements.....somebody wanna "argue" wit dat?

Well said all this about nothing really. Seems like Dr. Stanley by all accounts is not the only one teaching error! Negative feedback is a positive tool if it is correcting error. All feedback is not good.But all is necessary.

 

[VCO]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know the apostles (except for Saul/Paul) were not baptized. The closest thing that I have found is when Jesus washed their feet. I do believe what you said. I believe that we should be moved to be baptized in water but it is the baptism in the Spirit that saves us.

I would guess that to be wrong, and here is why:

Acts 2:37-38 (NIV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
[SUP]38 [/SUP] Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:41 (NIV)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Therefore I think that would CERTAINLY have included any of the Apostles who were not Baptized, including Peter Himself; IF that had not done it earlier or possibly they could have been Baptized by JESUS.

John 21:25 (NIV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

SEE, we only have the highlights of the Ministry of JESUS, which are NOT even CLOSE to all of the details.

Now in reference Baptizing the 3000, mentioned above, HOW DO YOU THINK THEY GOT AWAY WITH THAT, WITHOUT THE SANHEDRIN STOPPING THEM, AND HAVING THEM ARRESTED?
?
?
?
They HID the Baptisms in PLAIN sight, conducting them in the Ceremonial Temple Mikvehs.

Mikveh (sometimes spelled mikvah, mikve, or mikva) (Hebrew: מִקְוֶה / מקווה, Modern mikve Tiberian miqwe; plural: mikva'ot or mikves(Yiddish)[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP] Hebrew: מִקְוִים / מִקְווֹת / מִקְוָאוֹת) is a bath used for the purpose of ritual immersion in Judaism. The word "mikveh", as used in the Hebrew Bible, literally means a "collection" – generally, a collection of water.[SUP][3][/SUP]
Several biblical regulations specify that full immersion in water is required to regain ritual purity after ritually impure incidents have occurred. A person was required to be ritually pure in order to enter the Temple. In addition, a convert to Judaism is required to immerse in a mikveh as part of the his/her conversion, and a woman is required to immerse in a mikveh after her menstrual period or childbirth before she and her husband can resume marital relations. In this context, "purity" and "impurity" are imperfect translations of the Hebrew "tahara" and "tumah", respectively, in that the negative connotation of the word impurity is not intended; rather being "impure" is indicative of being in a state in which certain things are prohibited (as relevant) until one has become "pure" again by immersion in a mikveh.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[VCO]

The Bible does not teach anywhere that Jesus paid our price in full. That is a 16th century doctrine made up by Reformed Theologians and it is commonly called Penal Substitution.

I can't help but think that Jesus when confronted with this idea would say, "Get thee behind me Satan."

Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

HOW IS THIS NOT PAID IN FULL?

Thank you Jesus.

1 John 2:2 (NKJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1 Corinthians 6:20 (NIV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

 

[VCO]

1 John 2:2 (NKJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1 Corinthians 6:20 (NIV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Colossians 1:14 (GW)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] His Son paid the price to free us, which means that our sins are forgiven.

Hebrews 9:15 (GW)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Because Christ offered himself to God, he is able to bring a new promise from God. Through his death he paid the price to set people free from the sins they committed under the first promise. He did this so that those who are called can be guaranteed an inheritance that will last forever.

 

[VCO]

No.

You twist it by adding mosaic law.

Do you not see how foolish this sounds?

No one in the OT was saved by works. But God ads works to the NT? So we have a harder way to God than they did??

Yeah right..

To quote Dr. John MacArthur:

Malachi 3:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

Since GOD does not Change, if we can find out how GOD saved ONE MAN, we will KNOW how GOD saves ALL MEN.

Romans 4:3-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.

 

[Shava]

Why do some people call being baptized works? I call being baptized obeying a command. Works shows God what we have done in his name, without works how can God judge us, what would he use to judge us if it wasn't our works. Doesn't God say you will know a person by his works, whether they be good or bad. So what's the big deal with the word works? The word works seems to divide people which makes no sense to me at all.

 

[VCO]

No

He said the practice lawlessness.

This would represent any person who ever lived. Including you.

The difference is. They did works.. As you do. So what separates you from them?

Psalm 106:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] How blessed are those who keep justice, Who practice righteousness at all times!

1 John 3:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Matthew 7:22-23 (NKJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Matthew 13:41 (NKJV)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,


SO WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE? Here is a BIG HINT! Whatever you are habitually PRACTICING, you get better at.

 

[pastac]

This is so far off topic now its really sad. This was a thread about Dr. Stanley now I'm not sure what it is in any light I think I'm done following it as I have been obedient and spoken for my brother in Christ. Dr. Charles Stanley.

 

[VCO]

Cool...what part of Missouri? I live about 80 miles southwest of St Louis...

Mostly from small towns like Smithville near Kansas City, Long Lane, and a couple of them used to live on a farm near McGee but they moved and I lost track of them.

 

[VCO]

I actually like the book of James and when taken in context is easily understood.....SHOW ME YOUR WORKS......

What James was saying is anyone truly saved, will have that saving faith produce a harvest of good works.

 

[VCO]

Your one of those long posters... lets start here, book chapter verse please.

Matthew 7:15-23 (NIV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Galatians 5:16-25 (NIV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
[SUP]20 [/SUP] idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
[SUP]21 [/SUP] and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.