Greater Works?

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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,281
6,585
113
#21
EXCERPT FROM ARTICLE:

Ye see - This might be rendered see, in the imperative. So Tyndale renders it, "Behold." But it is more commonly supposed that it should be rendered in the indicative. The sense is not materially different whichever translation is adopted. The object of the apostle is, to direct their attention to the special proof of his love, which he had manifested in writing such a letter.
How large a letter - Considerable variety has existed in regard to the interpretation of this phrase.

The word used here and translated "how large" (πηλίκος pēlikos), means. properly, "how great." Some have supposed that it refers to the size of the letters which Paul made in writing the Epistle - the length and crudeness of the characters which he used. Such interpreters suppose that he was not well versed in writing Greek, and that he used large letters. and those somewhat rudely made, like the Hebrew. So Doddridge and Whitby interpret it; and so Theodoret, Jerome, Theophylact, and some others. He might not, says Doddridge, have been well versed in the Greek characters; or "this inaccuracy of his writings might have been owing to the infirmity or weakness of his nerves, which he had hinted at before."

Jerome says, that Paul was a Hebrew, and that he was unacquainted with the mode of writing Greek letters; and that because necessity demanded that he should write a letter in his own hand, contrary to his usual custom, he was obliged to form his characters in this crude manner. According to this interpretation, it was:

(1) A pledge to the Galatians that the Epistle was genuine, since it bore the marks of his own handwriting; and,(2) It was proof of special affection for them that he was willing to undergo this labor on their account.

FOUND HERE:

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LE.../6-11.htm/RK=0/RS=A8b0Jo1qSHK5rk7Z_JnVoSfcpZc-
 
A

AslanII

Guest
#22
Probably because....

1. We ain't Jesus
2. Maybe we should pray for God's will to be done...maybe the people (person) we are praying for is not meant to be healed....

Paul prayed three times for the (thorn in his flesh) to be healed and the answer was....NO! and.....
Live with it as my grace is sufficient........
Yes we are not Jesus, but He did say that we will do the same things that He did and even greater? Saying that maybe it is not God's will for someone to be healed makes sense...we don't know what God is doing in someone else's life. But I am still restless about this issue and I haven't really received an answer.

On another secular forum that I am on this issue also came up. This was my answer.

"To answer your first question: God does heal me when I am sick by providing doctors and medicine that I can use. As I have said before, God granted people the wisdom and insight to discover medicine and how the human body works so that we can put it to good use. From my point of view, nothing we have is from ourselves. Unlike what some people believe, Christians are not against science. This is not the dark middle ages. I sometimes wonder how to integrate everything, but this does not say that science is not extremely useful".

This is one way that I see it. But God Himself does still do miracles doesn't He? He is clear on the fact that He doesn't change.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#23
I sometimes wonder that there have been greater works, we simply are not aware because the bad did not happen, or the asker did not advertise. :)
But truth be known, the greater work is faith, salvaton and the movivng of mountains is that those who were lost, are now saved!
For the angels celibrate every sinner who returns to God!
Paul , even though his thorn was never removed, never lost faith or cursed his thorn, in fact, he spoke to Gods glory made perfect in our weaknesses!
Greater works, yes miricals, but the greater is faith held firm in every adversity, one willing to lose all for Jesus, today, believing upon Jesus even though we have not seen Him!
For greater is not just mesured by size large or tiny, but by depth and even absence of, how far moved or...
faith unmovable, like mt zion!

God bless
pickles

sooner or later we all will learn, its not about what one can put into a box or carry, but that all is infinite and cannot fit into a box, and He carries us!
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#24
I sometimes wonder that there have been greater works, we simply are not aware because the bad did not happen, or the asker did not advertise. :)
But truth be known, the greater work is faith, salvaton and the movivng of mountains is that those who were lost, are now saved!
For the angels celibrate every sinner who returns to God!
Paul , even though his thorn was never removed, never lost faith or cursed his thorn, in fact, he spoke to Gods glory made perfect in our weaknesses!
Greater works, yes miricals, but the greater is faith held firm in every adversity, one willing to lose all for Jesus, today, believing upon Jesus even though we have not seen Him!
For greater is not just mesured by size large or tiny, but by depth and even absence of, how far moved or...
faith unmovable, like mt zion!

God bless
pickles

sooner or later we all will learn, its not about what one can put into a box or carry, but that all is infinite and cannot fit into a box, and He carries us!
Interesting take on the moving of mountains are the lost being saved, could you elaborate?
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
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#25
Yes we are not Jesus, but He did say that we will do the same things that He did and even greater? Saying that maybe it is not God's will for someone to be healed makes sense...we don't know what God is doing in someone else's life. But I am still restless about this issue and I haven't really received an answer.

On another secular forum that I am on this issue also came up. This was my answer.

"To answer your first question: God does heal me when I am sick by providing doctors and medicine that I can use. As I have said before, God granted people the wisdom and insight to discover medicine and how the human body works so that we can put it to good use. From my point of view, nothing we have is from ourselves. Unlike what some people believe, Christians are not against science. This is not the dark middle ages. I sometimes wonder how to integrate everything, but this does not say that science is not extremely useful".

This is one way that I see it. But God Himself does still do miracles doesn't He? He is clear on the fact that He doesn't change.
Well it seems to be a blend and what I mean by that is....

1. My Uncle had a massive stroke/aneurism on last Friday and died yesterday irregardless what the doctors had done....no amount of prayer by the churches/people/preachers mattered...

2. My son who is almost 19 was born grey, not breathing, limp and lifeless...we were told he would not live more than 2 days by all the doctors and nurses....about 25-30 churches in 5 states and hundreds of God's people praying and here we are 19 years later almost...he has had 13 surgeries, 5 blood infections that almost killed him and numerous 3 to 4 weeks stays in Childrens hospital due to common colds, flus and viruses and yet here he is alive and well even in spite of short gut and Congenitial Myotonic Dystrophy.

Sometimes God answers yes...sometimes he answers no! Sometimes the (impossible) becomes possible with God, because he can do all things that are within the parameters that his Holiness will allow!
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,708
3,650
113
#26
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

I'm still pondering the 'because', the reason why they will do 'greater works'...because He goes to the Father.

Or perhaps it's referring to greater works than the disciples had already done when they were sent out...

Mark 6:12-13 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#27
Interesting take on the moving of mountains are the lost being saved, could you elaborate?
The moving of mountains is easy, we see it being done every day now, when highways are built ect, it takes time, but it can be done.

The greater mountain is the hardened heart, the discouraged, the bitter, or those under the influence of the thief.
Many times in my life, Ive seen these, and saw reaching them impossible, because of the injuries or bitterness of life in the world.
I had tried everything I knew, loving even unto recieiving injury upon myself for their sake.
It was when I gave them to Jesus, and in Jesus to God Our Father, that the miricals were seen, the mountain of stone within that person lifted and moved away. :)
I knew then that the greater work was not what I did, but always what in Jesus, God did.
To see a person whos heart was so hardened, so bitter, so turned away from Jesus, suddenly change, not by what I did or any other, but compleatly in Jesus by God.
Is to see the largest mountain lifted and moved.
Faith brings works, but it is when we see that the work is done though us in Jesus's name by God, that one realises...
that the greater works are done, because we come to know that all work, all creation, is the work of God.

Kinda like the lamp that shines brightly, we are just the cord that the power passes through. :)
But in faith, we are willing to be that cord, :)knowing that God can power the lamp, even if there is no cord. :)

Hard to put to words, but it is in this , that one begins to get a glimce, see through the glass darkly, what Jesus meant when He said that we can be one with Him, as He is one with the Father.
A glimce of understanding the mystery of God being one.

Wish it were more though, many times,...can't wait for face to face!!! :)

The thing is, no matter how much one thinks they have learned, seen, ect, it remains always the same work of faith. :)

God bless
pickles
 
J

Jda016

Guest
#28
The moving of mountains is easy, we see it being done every day now, when highways are built ect, it takes time, but it can be done.

The greater mountain is the hardened heart, the discouraged, the bitter, or those under the influence of the thief.
Many times in my life, Ive seen these, and saw reaching them impossible, because of the injuries or bitterness of life in the world.
I had tried everything I knew, loving even unto recieiving injury upon myself for their sake.
It was when I gave them to Jesus, and in Jesus to God Our Father, that the miricals were seen, the mountain of stone within that person lifted and moved away. :)
I knew then that the greater work was not what I did, but always what in Jesus, God did.
To see a person whos heart was so hardened, so bitter, so turned away from Jesus, suddenly change, not by what I did or any other, but compleatly in Jesus by God.
Is to see the largest mountain lifted and moved.
Faith brings works, but it is when we see that the work is done though us in Jesus's name by God, that one realises...
that the greater works are done, because we come to know that all work, all creation, is the work of God.

Kinda like the lamp that shines brightly, we are just the cord that the power passes through. :)
But in faith, we are willing to be that cord, :)knowing that God can power the lamp, even if there is no cord. :)

Hard to put to words, but it is in this , that one begins to get a glimce, see through the glass darkly, what Jesus meant when He said that we can be one with Him, as He is one with the Father.
A glimce of understanding the mystery of God being one.

Wish it were more though, many times,...can't wait for face to face!!! :)

The thing is, no matter how much one thinks they have learned, seen, ect, it remains always the same work of faith. :)

God bless
pickles
Very well said! :)
 
S

savedbyyourmercy

Guest
#30
in verse 18 Jesus also said "I will not keep you orphans; I will come to you" .. The whole of Chapter 14 reveals to us much about the Triune nature of God
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#31
The moving of mountains is easy, we see it being done every day now, when highways are built ect, it takes time, but it can be done.

The greater mountain is the hardened heart, the discouraged, the bitter, or those under the influence of the thief.
Many times in my life, Ive seen these, and saw reaching them impossible, because of the injuries or bitterness of life in the world.
I had tried everything I knew, loving even unto recieiving injury upon myself for their sake.
It was when I gave them to Jesus, and in Jesus to God Our Father, that the miricals were seen, the mountain of stone within that person lifted and moved away. :)
I knew then that the greater work was not what I did, but always what in Jesus, God did.
To see a person whos heart was so hardened, so bitter, so turned away from Jesus, suddenly change, not by what I did or any other, but compleatly in Jesus by God.
Is to see the largest mountain lifted and moved.
Faith brings works, but it is when we see that the work is done though us in Jesus's name by God, that one realises...
that the greater works are done, because we come to know that all work, all creation, is the work of God.

Kinda like the lamp that shines brightly, we are just the cord that the power passes through. :)
But in faith, we are willing to be that cord, :)knowing that God can power the lamp, even if there is no cord. :)

Hard to put to words, but it is in this , that one begins to get a glimce, see through the glass darkly, what Jesus meant when He said that we can be one with Him, as He is one with the Father.
A glimce of understanding the mystery of God being one.

Wish it were more though, many times,...can't wait for face to face!!! :)

The thing is, no matter how much one thinks they have learned, seen, ect, it remains always the same work of faith. :)

God bless
pickles
Again this is an interesting take and I am just asking more questions to gain further insight on this view

How does this view reconcile with the fact Jesus was not talking to the lost when he said this, but was talking to his disciples?
What had Jesus just accomplished when he made this statement to his disciples in:
Matt 17.19-21
Matt 18.18-22
Mark 11.12-24

What does moving the mountain in Zechariah 4.6-8 have to do with saving the lost or the passages above?

How does your personal faith move a person to come into repentance? Does your faith have anything to do with reproving the lost of their sin?
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#32
Again this is an interesting take and I am just asking more questions to gain further insight on this view

How does this view reconcile with the fact Jesus was not talking to the lost when he said this, but was talking to his disciples?
What had Jesus just accomplished when he made this statement to his disciples in:
Matt 17.19-21
Matt 18.18-22
Mark 11.12-24

What does moving the mountain in Zechariah 4.6-8 have to do with saving the lost or the passages above?

How does your personal faith move a person to come into repentance? Does your faith have anything to do with reproving the lost of their sin?
Just saw your post here, I am trying to understand what you are asking here, not your fault, Im dislexic so struggle sometimes.
Ill look at the scriptures you have posted, but please understand, Im no theologin or scholar, just one who loves Jesus and trusts all understanding to God,for all given by His Holy Spirit and tested in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh. :)

God bless
pickles
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#33
I tend to think it's a problem on the receiving end (The problem is humanity, not that God never does these things anymore or isn't capable of it). I would submit that it also takes faith to receive healing, not just to perform healing.

Matthew 13:58:

"And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
"

Sin and lack of faith seem to be the primary factors that put up this barrier when it comes to miraculous events and blessings.
I mostly agree with this, except that sin never stood in the way of Christ healing anyone. He never required anyone to repent and/or confess before He would heal them; not once. In fact, He often forgave and then healed - without any input from those He healed (see Mt. 9). They recognized their need and His provision, and believed Him.

I love this:

15 And as he reclined at table in his house, many tax collectors and sinners were reclining with Jesus and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16 And the scribes of the Pharisees, when they saw that he was eating with sinners and tax collectors, said to his disciples, “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 And when Jesus heard it, he said to them,
“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

He calls us to believe in Him; He dealt with sin at the Cross. When we believe, we enter into what He has already done. Some believe that if the Body really begins to understand who She is in Christ, that as faith increases, and we begin to walk more and more in Grace, miracles will also increase as we minister the Gospel of Grace to the Lost.

-JGIG
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#34
Jesus gives a reason (clue) why greater works will be done in that same verse, ''because I go to my Father''.
Is this any help?
Because Jesus went to His Father, His Work was complete, and salvation is possible - the greatest work - that of giving New Life to the Lost.

That is Good News!

-JGIG
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#35
Yes we are not Jesus, but He did say that we will do the same things that He did and even greater? Saying that maybe it is not God's will for someone to be healed makes sense...we don't know what God is doing in someone else's life. But I am still restless about this issue and I haven't really received an answer.

On another secular forum that I am on this issue also came up. This was my answer.

"To answer your first question: God does heal me when I am sick by providing doctors and medicine that I can use. As I have said before, God granted people the wisdom and insight to discover medicine and how the human body works so that we can put it to good use. From my point of view, nothing we have is from ourselves. Unlike what some people believe, Christians are not against science. This is not the dark middle ages. I sometimes wonder how to integrate everything, but this does not say that science is not extremely useful".

This is one way that I see it. But God Himself does still do miracles doesn't He? He is clear on the fact that He doesn't change.
I agree. Miracles come in many forms. We have a Type 1 Diabetic daughter, diagnosed 5 years ago. If she'd lived in the early 1900's or earlier, she would have died. But some dedicated researchers/physicians worked their tails off trying to find a way to either cure or manage the condition, and as a result, we now have insulin therapy available which not only keeps her alive, but if managed well, she will be able to live a long, healthy life with few, if any complications. Add to that the advancement of insulin delivery (insulin pumps) and monitoring systems (CGMS and regular testing), and though it's not effortless (it can be hard work at times with night-time checks, etc.), management of a once death-sentence is relatively easy. If God were to heal her of her condition, that would be awesome. Only slightly less awesome is how God has provided for her to live via medical science. And we are thankful \o/.

That said, we just had a team come back from India, where our local body supports a church-planting ministry there. It is the practice of the local fellowships there to go house to house and ask families if they can pray for them. They see many healings and many are led to Christ.

The healings come first - as a testimony to the reality of a God who loves them. Then they hear the Good News and believe.

-JGIG
 
Nov 2, 2013
1,380
6
0
#36
I agree. Miracles come in many forms. We have a Type 1 Diabetic daughter, diagnosed 5 years ago. If she'd lived in the early 1900's or earlier, she would have died. But some dedicated researchers/physicians worked their tails off trying to find a way to either cure or manage the condition, and as a result, we now have insulin therapy available which not only keeps her alive, but if managed well, she will be able to live a long, healthy life with few, if any complications. Add to that the advancement of insulin delivery (insulin pumps) and monitoring systems (CGMS and regular testing), and though it's not effortless (it can be hard work at times with night-time checks, etc.), management of a once death-sentence is relatively easy. If God were to heal her of her condition, that would be awesome. Only slightly less awesome is how God has provided for her to live via medical science. And we are thankful \o/.

That said, we just had a team come back from India, where our local body supports a church-planting ministry there. It is the practice of the local fellowships there to go house to house and ask families if they can pray for them. They see many healings and many are led to Christ.

The healings come first - as a testimony to the reality of a God who loves them. Then they hear the Good News and believe.

-JGIG
Had the daughter experienced those days, illnesses like diabetes rarely occurred.
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#37
Had the daughter experienced those days, illnesses like diabetes rarely occurred.
Yes and no.

Type 1 Diabetes (not to be confused with Type 2, the more common type that can often be managed with diet and exercise) has been around for millennia - documentation has been found in Egyptian, Roman, and other ancient records. It was not as common because, occurring mainly in children and having a genetic component, they did not live long enough with the condition to reproduce and pass on the genetic predisposition to Type 1 Diabetes.

Type 1 Diabetes is an auto-immune disease, most often occurring in children, where the body attacks the islet cells (the insulin producing cells) of the pancreas, ceasing insulin production. Insulin is the hormone which opens up the cells in our bodies to utilize the carbohydrates and fats that we consume, converting food into energy, heat, brain and organ functions, and fat storage. Without insulin, the body burns fat, then muscle to survive. At that point, blood chemistry gets so out of whack that death quickly occurs. In the days before insulin therapy was available, IF an accurate diagnosis was made, a child could survive a year or two on a low-carb starvation diet, eventually dying of starvation.

The increase in Type 1 diagnoses is a reflection of the increased survival rate for Type 1 Diabetics; they are living past childhood, not only surviving, but thriving into adulthood, and having children of their own. Having a genetic component, the condition can be passed down to offspring. Our daughter's paternal grandfather was a Type 1 Diabetic. He had five children and many grandchildren; so far she is the only one who has inherited the genetic mix triggering Type 1 Diabetes. If our daughter has children, she may pass that genetic predisposition on to her offspring. It often skips generations and is often passed paternally, not maternally, so only time will tell.

So while in 'those days' Type 1 Diabetes was more rare, it was because most of those afflicted died before they could pass on the genetics triggering the disease. More can be learned here for anyone interested:



-JGIG
 
Aug 1, 2009
349
9
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#38
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

I'm still pondering the 'because', the reason why they will do 'greater works'...because He goes to the Father.

Or perhaps it's referring to greater works than the disciples had already done when they were sent out...

Mark 6:12-13 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.
Those who believe in Christ will do greater works than He did, because He went to the Father...

The reason believers would do greater works WHEN Christ left was because Jesus could not send the Holy Spirit to us if He did not go to the Father:

John 16:7
“Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you."

So what happened when the Holy Spirit came?

Acts 1:8
“But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Mefn in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

In the book of Acts there are plenty of believers mentioned, who received the Holy Spirit, and did the same miracles that Jesus did and even ones that scripture does not mention Jesus did.
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
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#39
If we look at the Lord's Prayer we can see how to move mountains, and what mountains we may move. We must work within the kingdom, and know about what is within that powerful force that is God. God and sin just can't be together. You can't be in a place of resentments and judging and be within the kingdom of God. We must know both the Father and the Son who God gave dominion to and accept the power and glory of them. We must be like little children, humble before the word of God that tells us what His Kingdom is like.

Christ said in Mar_2:9 Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, pick up your mat, and walk'? In other words, God could work the miracles when they were working within the kingdom of God.

There is a book I enjoy so much showing examples of how this works called "Prayer Can Change Your Life". It tells of miracles happening to people, but how the people they were happening to worked to be within the Kingdom of God to be one with the power of God.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#40
Again this is an interesting take and I am just asking more questions to gain further insight on this view

How does this view reconcile with the fact Jesus was not talking to the lost when he said this, but was talking to his disciples?
What had Jesus just accomplished when he made this statement to his disciples in:
Matt 17.19-21
Matt 18.18-22
Mark 11.12-24

What does moving the mountain in Zechariah 4.6-8 have to do with saving the lost or the passages above?

How does your personal faith move a person to come into repentance? Does your faith have anything to do with reproving the lost of their sin?
I read the passages you spoke to, and as I understood, all spoke to faith.
But the scriputres also spoke to how the power known by faith, comes from God Our Father, in Jesus, made available to us by faith.
Im still not sure the question you are asking, but will answer to what I think it may be. :)
The power to move mountains by faith, does not have self in it, but self is set aside.
For faith of a mustard seed, perfected, does not live in flesh, but in Jesus's Spirit, which is where we live when we set self aside for Him.
I wonder why you brought up the fig tree, maby to show how faith reqires action, that step forward for the goal or anothers' salvation, even when one cannot see it at all. :)
That is the work of faith, even though not seeing, in faith acting stepping forward in Jesus's Spirit.
That is why the mountain can be moved, because it is not about a mountian, but about the impossible being done by faith in Jesus.
But again, not by our power but by God's.
You see, It is His power that gives me the streangth every day to keep going.
My dr told me that her patients with the same symptoms as I, were all in wheel chairs due to the leval of pain they suffered, for it is crippleing.
This is the mountain moved in my life.
For , I know in Jesus, God is greater, for each day I get up and live the life God asks of me, not because of the flesh that seeks by pain to cripple and destroy His gift.
But because of His Spirit in which I live, which is more powerful and overcomes any flesh.

As to the fig tree and why it was cursed, it bore no fruit.

For faith must be lived in order to bare fruit. :)


Something I have often pondered, in psalms I believe, it speaks to perfect faith being imovable, like mount zion.
Yet in the NT, Jesus speaks to faith moving mountains.
Ive pondered why it is used in so opposit a way.
Then last night this was set upon me.
A diamond is the hardest stone, and when cut perfected.
It also takes a diamond to cut another diamond.
Basially, it takes a perfect diamond, to perfect the imperfect diamond, so to perfect the imperfect.
Or the perfect mountain to move a mountian. :)

(sorry about my spelling), anyway, I hope I answered your question, but if not, just try asking again, as sooner or later I should get it. :)

God bless
pickles
 
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