Besides scriptures posted, we have the thief on the cross next to Jesus. This man was saved because of compassion and because he requested Jesus to remember him. Now I think we can agree he did not do any works. Today someone that is paralyzed or is unable to work would be granted the same grace. However if you are able to work and do not, I believe that you are in danger of being lost. We are not saved by works, but if we do not work there is a good chance that we are not saved because we are ungrateful.
SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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E
This excuse of everyone who believes in faith alone believing it is ok to go on living in sin and not doing any work is getting old and quite restless.
When are you people going to open up and realise true faith produces true action. One can not truly repent, Truly have faith in ALL God says about them, their circumstances because of who they are and what they have done, and the only way to have this circumstance taken care of.
NO ONE who truly knows where he was, TRULY has complete faith and assurance in everything God has said about the above, WHo has been truly born of god and truly give the spirit of God on their hearts will
1. Stop believing
2. Not show any type of work
3. Live in sin
4. give God the finger and say here God, take your gift back.
I think it is quite obvious you people have not done any of the above, if you have you would not still live in fear. Still think you can fall away Still think you can oppose the holy Spirit who is supposedly in you, and walk away completely.
wake up and smell the rose of the gospel before it is too late!
And yes, I am yelling, I am so sick of being misrepresented by so many people who refuse to listen or understand what we believe
When are you people going to open up and realise true faith produces true action. One can not truly repent, Truly have faith in ALL God says about them, their circumstances because of who they are and what they have done, and the only way to have this circumstance taken care of.
NO ONE who truly knows where he was, TRULY has complete faith and assurance in everything God has said about the above, WHo has been truly born of god and truly give the spirit of God on their hearts will
1. Stop believing
2. Not show any type of work
3. Live in sin
4. give God the finger and say here God, take your gift back.
I think it is quite obvious you people have not done any of the above, if you have you would not still live in fear. Still think you can fall away Still think you can oppose the holy Spirit who is supposedly in you, and walk away completely.
wake up and smell the rose of the gospel before it is too late!
And yes, I am yelling, I am so sick of being misrepresented by so many people who refuse to listen or understand what we believe
E
Just because you do not come right out and say it, Does not mean it is true.
The pharisees did not say it either, But if we really know who they were, we would know they say everything you claim you do not say
And since your nothing but a NT version of them who has replaced mosaic law with the law of your church, it should be obvious you are in fact saying the same things they were.
Just because you believe in Christ does not mean anything, Instead of being a messianic jew who adds the law to grace, Your a roman christian who adds roman law to grace. That is the only difference, what rules and regulations and sacraficial tradition you follow
The pharisees did not say it either, But if we really know who they were, we would know they say everything you claim you do not say
And since your nothing but a NT version of them who has replaced mosaic law with the law of your church, it should be obvious you are in fact saying the same things they were.
Just because you believe in Christ does not mean anything, Instead of being a messianic jew who adds the law to grace, Your a roman christian who adds roman law to grace. That is the only difference, what rules and regulations and sacraficial tradition you follow
Elin,
And how does this actually speak about what I stated? Where is all this nonsense about "second causes" come from?
YOu making this stuff up as you go since you have nothing to support your view from scripture?
Where does scripture use the term, counterfeit believer? this text surely does not. Vs22 tells you that these thought they were beleivers, because on one point in the past time they explain that they cast out demons,and done wonders in your name. Jesus says that He never knew them because they were practicing lawlessness. Belief, believing is constant, continuing and active. It cannot stop. If it does as in this case, they departed from Christ, so why would you expect Christ to grant eternal life with Him. It is the faithful that endure, not do it for a time then give up.
Explain to me how someone can apostisize that was never in a group, or held that groups tenets apostasize? Do you know what the word means?
a believer is a believer. YOu can call him anythng you want but he was a believer. It clearly shows a believer who fell away because they were no longer abiding in Christ, they were not longer doing the will of God.
So we are to believe that Christ assigns unbelievers with the unbelievers. Specifically Matt 24:41ff we have a faithful servant who took Jesus for granted and thought he could get away with beating his fellow servants. His master, Christ, at the judgement (or death of the servant) he will be cast (where?) in heaven? It says the UNFAITHFUL servant will be cut in two and appoint him with hypocites were there is knashing of teeth. In order for anyone to BECOME UNFAITHFUL, one must of necessity be faithful.
YOu are really fishing now. Or is it just throwing mud against a wall, hoping some will stick?
no evidence and trot out the enuendo, mischaracterizations and strawman.
And how does this actually speak about what I stated? Where is all this nonsense about "second causes" come from?
YOu making this stuff up as you go since you have nothing to support your view from scripture?
Where does scripture use the term, counterfeit believer? this text surely does not. Vs22 tells you that these thought they were beleivers, because on one point in the past time they explain that they cast out demons,and done wonders in your name. Jesus says that He never knew them because they were practicing lawlessness. Belief, believing is constant, continuing and active. It cannot stop. If it does as in this case, they departed from Christ, so why would you expect Christ to grant eternal life with Him. It is the faithful that endure, not do it for a time then give up.
Explain to me how someone can apostisize that was never in a group, or held that groups tenets apostasize? Do you know what the word means?
a believer is a believer. YOu can call him anythng you want but he was a believer. It clearly shows a believer who fell away because they were no longer abiding in Christ, they were not longer doing the will of God.
So we are to believe that Christ assigns unbelievers with the unbelievers. Specifically Matt 24:41ff we have a faithful servant who took Jesus for granted and thought he could get away with beating his fellow servants. His master, Christ, at the judgement (or death of the servant) he will be cast (where?) in heaven? It says the UNFAITHFUL servant will be cut in two and appoint him with hypocites were there is knashing of teeth. In order for anyone to BECOME UNFAITHFUL, one must of necessity be faithful.
YOu are really fishing now. Or is it just throwing mud against a wall, hoping some will stick?
no evidence and trot out the enuendo, mischaracterizations and strawman.
H
Physical good deeds helping the physically needy are done by non-Christians as well. So if you are looking at such deeds you won't see any difference between Christians and non-Christians.
The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" did not do any physical good deeds, nor obedience to the law. That thief however did believe on Jesus and even rebuked the other thief who mocked Jesus. This is just one example of works that shows our faith.
The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" did not do any physical good deeds, nor obedience to the law. That thief however did believe on Jesus and even rebuked the other thief who mocked Jesus. This is just one example of works that shows our faith.
We are not speaking about non-believers who are NOT working. We are speaking about believers who at some point in their lives stop bearing fruit. For arguements sake, these people do not repent ever after that point. If so, they were believers but are no longer believers and will NOT BE SAVED.
Your exception example is just that. Jesus will not turn any seeker of Him away. If one seeks Him, he will find, and Jesus will take him in. This is called the 11th hour salvation, or if you want to make it even tighter, 11:45, thus 15 minutes before death. He will be saved. On the other hand, a person who believes at 2:00AM of his life but at 12PM he leaves Christ, He just does not want to be a believer. This is the person of Matt 7:22-23. He will not be saved because he did not remain abiding IN Christ. It is the end of our journey in this life that will determine if we receive the promise of eternal life with Christ.
Your exception example is just that. Jesus will not turn any seeker of Him away. If one seeks Him, he will find, and Jesus will take him in. This is called the 11th hour salvation, or if you want to make it even tighter, 11:45, thus 15 minutes before death. He will be saved. On the other hand, a person who believes at 2:00AM of his life but at 12PM he leaves Christ, He just does not want to be a believer. This is the person of Matt 7:22-23. He will not be saved because he did not remain abiding IN Christ. It is the end of our journey in this life that will determine if we receive the promise of eternal life with Christ.
I understand your position to a point. You believe that one is finitely, written in stone, have irrevocable salvation upon the minute one believes. Once that person says He accepts Christ, He is absolutely saved, past tense. Then you say that this salvation/faith produces the good works of being a servant, a follower, obeying Christ, etc, etc, Because one is SAVED, how can one fall away. Impossible. Consequently you hold to a theology that says saved by faith only. Works do not save, have nothing to do with salvation, they are just gravey for God but they have no relevance.
This is where it gets fuzzy for me in understanding your position. Since they are irrelevant they would be optional, but I have heard several proponents say that a believer cannot do no works. It is inherent of a believer that he can only do good works and does them. Again fuzzy, I assume that he also cannot do bad works because that is then inherently not being a believer. Thus if he cannot do bad works, then he does not sin. Sin is bad works, namely not doing something according to God's will, which cannot happen for a believer. Some have even gone so far to say that the Holy Spirit actually does the good works. But again fuzzy, who does the bad works, who does the sinning?
Where am I on understanding your position? Enlighten me where I went off the road.
This is where it gets fuzzy for me in understanding your position. Since they are irrelevant they would be optional, but I have heard several proponents say that a believer cannot do no works. It is inherent of a believer that he can only do good works and does them. Again fuzzy, I assume that he also cannot do bad works because that is then inherently not being a believer. Thus if he cannot do bad works, then he does not sin. Sin is bad works, namely not doing something according to God's will, which cannot happen for a believer. Some have even gone so far to say that the Holy Spirit actually does the good works. But again fuzzy, who does the bad works, who does the sinning?
Where am I on understanding your position? Enlighten me where I went off the road.
And I just did a response to what you claimed was total misrepresentation. The two threads, don't even add me in it, the proponents to saved by faith only, have yet to summarize, state correctly, what the opponents believe. They are consistanly mischaracterized, all of you are batting at strawmen.
Just like here. There is not even a statement that is close to anything I implied, inferred, and surely not directly stated.
I particularly, like the bit on Rome again. You attack Rome at any chance you get, and what is the relevance, I have no idea since I an not a Roman Christian anyway. But even if I was, you obviously don't know much about the RCC either. It is another strawman for you.
Just like here. There is not even a statement that is close to anything I implied, inferred, and surely not directly stated.
I particularly, like the bit on Rome again. You attack Rome at any chance you get, and what is the relevance, I have no idea since I an not a Roman Christian anyway. But even if I was, you obviously don't know much about the RCC either. It is another strawman for you.
This is a mischaracterization again. Just want to point that out to you. You are imposing your understanding upon what the other person is saying.
Because you don't understand what your opposition is saying, how can you refute it? This is why you are hitting the strawman all the time. One does not need to believe what the other person is saying, but understanding is necessary.
Because you don't understand what your opposition is saying, how can you refute it? This is why you are hitting the strawman all the time. One does not need to believe what the other person is saying, but understanding is necessary.
H
Hi Cassian,
Forums are difficult places to get one's message across at the best of times. We each have our own positions with it's various labels, etc, describing particular aspects. No doubt "works of the law" is just one example that you have objected to as you see works of the law differently. The reality is that these differences are something we all will just have to work with.
However, I suggest that you would do better to refer to scripture to present your view. Many of those who seem to support your posts differ from you in that they argue based on scripture, hence I find them easier to understand than you. From what I've seen your posts focus mainly on anything else but scripture
I've tried several times to read your posts and all I see is fluff, bluster and obfuscation. I've noted that others have pointed this out to you also. As I don't have a lot of time on forums I didn't bother addressing your points as you weren't making any point of substance anyway. I offer this as advice, so hopefully you won't get offended and vengeful.
Forums are difficult places to get one's message across at the best of times. We each have our own positions with it's various labels, etc, describing particular aspects. No doubt "works of the law" is just one example that you have objected to as you see works of the law differently. The reality is that these differences are something we all will just have to work with.
However, I suggest that you would do better to refer to scripture to present your view. Many of those who seem to support your posts differ from you in that they argue based on scripture, hence I find them easier to understand than you. From what I've seen your posts focus mainly on anything else but scripture
I've tried several times to read your posts and all I see is fluff, bluster and obfuscation. I've noted that others have pointed this out to you also. As I don't have a lot of time on forums I didn't bother addressing your points as you weren't making any point of substance anyway. I offer this as advice, so hopefully you won't get offended and vengeful.
E
Oh its nonsense?
Ok. So james is in error. I guess you like many would rather it not be in scripture, because it does not support your theory.
And please keep me on ignore. If you have nothing to add which would show I was wrong, but just wish to attack. Then it is not worth listening to your nonsense.
Ok. So james is in error. I guess you like many would rather it not be in scripture, because it does not support your theory.
And please keep me on ignore. If you have nothing to add which would show I was wrong, but just wish to attack. Then it is not worth listening to your nonsense.
E
Why would it get fuzzy? Why would you think it is optional. The only reason I can fathom this is you deny the true power of faith.
If you have true faith in what someone says, (the term literally means a "full assurance) Have you EVER in your life not had something change in your life. or done at least some of what the person said based on your COMPLETE trust in what was said?
Did Not Hebrews show us that the people who had true faith show that true faith by doing the things which they "could not see, but trusted God would do? Is that not what faith means? "the substance of things HOPED FOR, the evidence of things NOT SEEN. How can someone who has a full assurance and hope (faith) not do the things which would bring that hope into fruition?
Does not James infer this in his first chapter? Showing that people in times of stuffering are supposed to trust Christ, And those who do not trust Christ will be like a ship without a rudder being tossed to and fro. and not expect anything from God. Because instead of trusting God (faith) they are doubters who instead turn to the world to try to relieve their suffering themselves? (serving two masters?
If you can not get this BASIC truth of what faith is, you can not understand the gospel. or our believe system.
This is nonsense.
Again, How can one who is fully assured of the words of Christ NOT DO WORKS? This is impossible. the only way they would not do works, is they are doubters. They may believe, but thay have no faith.
you went off the road by not understand what faith really is. and thinking someone can trust and be fully assured of something, yet NOT DO anything which he actually claimed he trusted in.
If you have true faith in what someone says, (the term literally means a "full assurance) Have you EVER in your life not had something change in your life. or done at least some of what the person said based on your COMPLETE trust in what was said?
Did Not Hebrews show us that the people who had true faith show that true faith by doing the things which they "could not see, but trusted God would do? Is that not what faith means? "the substance of things HOPED FOR, the evidence of things NOT SEEN. How can someone who has a full assurance and hope (faith) not do the things which would bring that hope into fruition?
Does not James infer this in his first chapter? Showing that people in times of stuffering are supposed to trust Christ, And those who do not trust Christ will be like a ship without a rudder being tossed to and fro. and not expect anything from God. Because instead of trusting God (faith) they are doubters who instead turn to the world to try to relieve their suffering themselves? (serving two masters?
If you can not get this BASIC truth of what faith is, you can not understand the gospel. or our believe system.
This is nonsense.
Again, How can one who is fully assured of the words of Christ NOT DO WORKS? This is impossible. the only way they would not do works, is they are doubters. They may believe, but thay have no faith.
you went off the road by not understand what faith really is. and thinking someone can trust and be fully assured of something, yet NOT DO anything which he actually claimed he trusted in.
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