Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[VCO]

Can a man who has become a Christian NEVER do any good works and still be saved? Yes? No?

Once again, that would only identify him as a counterfeit Christian. True Christians will always produce at least some good works, which is their natural born again spiritual fruits, because only works done purely out of LOVE for Christ are good works.

To change the subject, I have been curious about your Avatar. Do you know what type of fish it is? It is definately NOT a Sea Bass, (I used to be a scuba diver), and I seriously doubt it is a Tilapia, because the tail is wrong. I have been trying to find it for awhile, and the only thing I could come up with was a Scup, here is a picture of one:

They catch them off the east coast.

Here is a Sea Bass picture:

AND THEY CAN GET HUGE:

 

[VCO]

Are you kidding? you still cannot see this is Paul speaking of the Law of Moses? are you just playing a game?

Do you think the works Abraham did were of merit? you cannot see there are two kinds of works?

Oh there are two kinds of works alright,

those that done out of LOVE for Jesus, trusting in His finished work of Salvation:

THEY ARE CALLED GOOD WORKS.

And there are works done to earn part of our Salvation:

THEY ARE CALLED FILTHY RAGS.

 

[Hoffco]

Good works are always good. Jesus loved the rich young ruler who asked Him what must I do to inherit eternal life. Jesus did not call the man down by saying all his good works were filthy rags. Jesus said he lacked one thing, He loved his money more that He loved God. The man was not doing good works to cover up his BAD deeds,works; But they did cover up his not really loving God. But, the hypocrite Jew in Rom 2 was teaching good works of the good law of God, but was secretly doing evil works. Evil works eventually surface and destroy us. God even knows the "intent of the heart/mind." Good works are in keeping with the letter of the law, other wise they work not be called good, but they often miss the spirit of true love of the law of God. . We can not play God and judge the intent of the heart of a person. Only God knows the heart. But, if you live with someone 24/7 it is more likely to know there heart. Please be careful not to judge the heart. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[VCO]

Good works are always good. Jesus loved the rich young ruler who asked Him what must I do to inherit eternal life. Jesus did not call the man down by saying all his good works were filthy rags. Jesus said he lacked one thing, He loved his money more that He loved God. The man was not doing good works to cover up his BAD deeds,works; But they did cover up his not really loving God. But, the hypocrite Jew in Rom 2 was teaching good works of the good law of God, but was secretly doing evil works. Evil works eventually surface and destroy us. God even knows the "intent of the heart/mind." Good works are in keeping with the letter of the law, other wise they work not be called good, but they often miss the spirit of true love of the law of God. . We can not play God and judge the intent of the heart of a person. Only God knows the heart. But, if you live with someone 24/7 it is more likely to know there heart. Please be careful not to judge the heart. Love to all, Hoffco

I repeat, it is not the deeds that make them GOOD WORKS, but why you do what you do. I is the MOTIVE that makes them GOOD.

Doing them to earn part of your salvation is the wrong motive.

Doing them as a way to LOVE the LORD back for having SAVED us is the right motive.

Isaiah 64:6-7 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
(Why were their "good works" or "righteousnesses" considered filthy rags?)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

Doing the right thing for the WRONG REASON, is of NO value to GOD, and that term Filthy Rags had a much more specific meaning, and the KJV translators chose not to translate it fully; probably out of respect for the women who would read it.

They had NO LOVE FOR GOD, therefore their works became of no value to GOD. LOVE must be the motive or they are NOT GOOD WORKS.

 

[homwardbound]

wow dude, You are doing everything you can to stop from seeing truth, I have never seen anyone so desperate.

Your the engine, Faith is the fuel. God is the driver, He startes the engine, He leads, He guides. He directs. The motor is useless without God. that is why without God it will just sit there and not do anything, it has no rudder to guide it so to speak.

However. God can not guide the motor unless there is fuel in the tank (faith)

and if the motor does not have God. it will never do any work. because we try to fill the gas tank with tainted fuel which can not cause the motor to do anything.

How about a toaster can't do its job without being plugged in as we can't do ours without Faith the gives the electricity ot make the toaster work,
I see what you are saying Brother and thanks for the analogy

 

[homwardbound]

How do you get salvation out of that?

By we are the creation not the creator, we respond and do by Faith in the creator and quit trying to be the creator as I see you are by your works, and posts, this is waht you are saying right or wrong?

 

[homwardbound]

We are getting closer, at least now you're realizing man must do something, now all you have to do is get this right, "God's gift is 'grace' ", mans part is faith, God will not make you have faith, or have faith for you, it is something you must do.

No man by works has ever pleased God, except Christ, for he walked by Faith (trust) and was l,ed bu Father in the power of the Holy Ghost. The same is for you and all today to do the same, and walk as Christ walked in dependence on Father.
You are showing dependence on self, and if:
[h=3]Hebrews 7:11[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked

How did Christ walk? Was it of and by himself or in total dependence on Father?
Who did he sent to lead us?
So who is to lead and do the works through us?

 

[homwardbound]

So you must make a choice, man must do something to have faith. otherwise they have unbelief, and by the Grace of God you have a choice.

Yes that choice is to beleive and enter God's rest, and we just love as God is Love

 

[homwardbound]

2 Tim 1:9; Titus 1;5 refer to works of merit, not obedience to God's will. Rom 11:29, God's gifts and calling are not changing.


Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

It cannot get any more plainer than Heb 5:9

And Christ said if there be any other way, can there be, never the less your will Father not mine, don't you get it?

 

[homwardbound]

Both Paul [Rom 6:16-18] and James, [James 2:24] says obedient works justify. God tells man to believe, repent, confess and be baptized and a man that obeys what God says, then God is working in that man as seen by his obedience in doing what God says. God is not working in those that do nothing, that do not do what he says.

So maybe you might want to reconsider then and do whart he says to trust him as Christ did and did nothing on his own or his own works, Did Chirst ever take any credit for himself? Not even to the point of claiming to be good
Matt 19 reveals this when he said to that rich man why call me good, fro only my Father is good, and you are here claiminmg your good using God as your Catalyst, for you to get credit

Love you and bless you, God is waiting for you to give up on all your flesh self efforts. No one could ever do what you are claiming one must do, and if one could, there would have never been a need for Christ the righteous

 

[homwardbound]

In Rom 4:2 Paul is speaking of works of merit, not obedience to God's will as Abraham had. Paul does not contradict James when James said "by works a man is justifed" not did Paul contradit himself in Rom 6:16-18 when he said obedience justifies.

No matter what all I see from your posts is manipulation for us to do works and as I am seeing this you are not claiming works are the by-product of Faith in the finished work of Christ. Rather you are adding self works to God's finished work for you
We just simply disagree and you are ion the hands of the savior to teach you truth, that you can't be perfect in and of yourself ever, before saved or after, for I know your obedience is not perfect or is it?

 

[homwardbound]

One can have good works without faith, but one cannot have faith without good works James 2:26

 James 2:26 (NKJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Keep proving your Faith by your good works, go ahead, that is what you believe go right ahead
And I will show you my Faith by my good works, that are not mine, they are God's, and I rest in God entering his courts with thanksgiving and praise
Thanks and be blessed

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How about a toaster can't do its job without being plugged in as we can't do ours without Faith the gives the electricity ot make the toaster work,
I see what you are saying Brother and thanks for the analogy

Good one. The receptacle is the power of God. the toaster is you. You have to have faith to plug the toaster in, or the electricity can not empower you to do any work.

 

[homwardbound]

More salvic verses you left out:

Lk 13:3 - "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish".

Mt 10:32,33 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven".

Mk16:16 - "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

1 Pet 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

Gal 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

Rom 6:3-5 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"

Rom 10:10 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

1 Jn 1:7,9 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Phil 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Rom 6:16-18 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Do you know that oil and water can't mix? It can be stirred up in a glass and appear to mix right? Now when all is settled they always separate right?

Oil is from Father for the new life in the Spirit by the resurrected Christ, not the dead one
Water is for man and man's efforts
Spirit and flesh do not mix, flesh is flesh and Spirit is Spirit

Sorry you do not reckon yourself dead to flesh Spirit, we are called by the cross to die to flesh as Christ died to flesh, then be raised in Spirit and Justified there by Father to walk in Spirit and truth right or wrong?

 

[homwardbound]

"Grace only" does not save anymore than "faith only" saves.

Why then did Christ do this?
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

 

[homwardbound]

Good one. The receptacle is the power of God. the toaster is you. You have to have faith to plug the toaster in, or the electricity can not empower you to do any work.

It is amazing the way of God a mystery since the foundation of the world, yes, has always been by Faith, works are nothing more that showing one has Faith
As Noah, listened, believed God and built the ark. You know it had not ever rained before that day from the sky.
Now if i were seeing Noah building the Ark, and asked him why, he might have said it is going to rain. I would have said what, there has never been water falling out of the sky, Noah are you crazy?
Thanks EG

 

[Cassian]

Why then did Christ do this?
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

this has nothing to do with the topic either, but let me ask you a question. Are people who became believers the only human beings that were ungodly?

 

[BenFTW]

This thread is still going? SeaBass was refuted multiple times already. By eternally-grateful, JGIG, and myself. Others too, if I remember correctly. Works-based salvation is what his doctrine is, and its false. Maintaining your salvation through good works, is not biblical. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. His question is a false dichotomy, and is in error from the output by using a false definition of a Christian, as well. It leaves no room for salvation for those who don't work, but we all know that it isn't about work, but rest. Rest in what or in who? Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross. His death, burial, and resurrection.

Yes, we are saved unto good works, but those works are a fruit of salvation and not the root of salvation. One can be saved and not work, due to circumstance. But to then conclude there is an exception for those not able to work, is to say one should seek to be in such a situation as to assure his salvation. Which is false, because we already have eternal security in Christ.

It comes down to trusting in your own righteousness or Christ's righteousness, that is imputed to those that believe. There is a simplicity of the Gospel that men want to complicate. Abraham believed God, and he was declared righteous (Gen 15:6). It is as simple as belief. God gave us a reference point to believe on, and that is Christ, he gave us something to believe in and that is the finished work of Christ. Its simple, stop complicating it to make new converts to be in fear and condemnation when God wants them in rest and assurance.

 

[Jabberjaw]

This thread is still going? SeaBass was refuted multiple times already. By eternally-grateful, JGIG, and myself. Others too, if I remember correctly. Works-based salvation is what his doctrine is, and its false. Maintaining your salvation through good works, is not biblical. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. His question is a false dichotomy, and is in error from the output by using a false definition of a Christian, as well. It leaves no room for salvation for those who don't work, but we all know that it isn't about work, but rest. Rest in what or in who? Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross. His death, burial, and resurrection.

Yes, we are saved unto good works, but those works are a fruit of salvation and not the root of salvation. One can be saved and not work, due to circumstance. But to then conclude there is an exception for those not able to work, is to say one should seek to be in such a situation as to assure his salvation. Which is false, because we already have eternal security in Christ.

It comes down to trusting in your own righteousness or Christ's righteousness, that is imputed to those that believe. There is a simplicity of the Gospel that men want to complicate. Abraham believed God, and he was declared righteous (Gen 15:6). It is as simple as belief. God gave us a reference point to believe on, and that is Christ, he gave us something to believe in and that is the finished work of Christ. Its simple, stop complicating it to make new converts to be in fear and condemnation when God wants them in rest and assurance.

Very egotistical,

You have proven anything, He finished His work, now we need to do ours, you haven't shown one shred of scripture that has not been ripped out of its context to prove your position, you have not proven that Jesus will obey the Gospel for you...

 

[Jabberjaw]

Yes that choice is to beleive and enter God's rest, and we just love as God is Love

That choice alone is righteous works that Jesus will not do for you.