SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[dcontroversal]

Gen 1:24, Gen 2:7ff. God created man as a whole man, what we call a Person with ONE nature. We were not created to have parts that are indiependent of each other that each cannot operate separatly, independent of each other.

You keep saying I am in error, yet no text that says we are "saved by faith only". Also, you hold a view that one is saved, finitely, upon a moments ascent of faith and ones faith cannot be lost. Yet, not a single text has been put forth that says this.

This is your OP, we have 1033 posts and NOT ONE support text for your premise. Actually we have the other post as well, and that resulted in the same conclusion, there you could not disprove the OP.

You might focus on your objective instead of trying to redefine scripture around to the scripture that has been given in oppsition to the view of "saved by faith only".

Your response is laughable at best and there have been numerous posted scriptures that prove that biblical salvation is based entirely on faith yet you reject them in favor of your own gospel that is not biblical, but rather fleshly and sensual as you believe that works save and keep saved<---heresy and double cursed to hell Galatians chapter 1, 3.

LT posted a full page of scripture that you reject while swallowing hook line and sinker catholic doctrine that has been twisted by one of the many churches that have their roots in her so...keep on trusting in your works and your own abilities and I can wait till the day of judgment to see who makes the gates and who doesn't!

SO ANSWER..HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU LOST YOUR SALVATION AND THEN REGAINED IT?

 

[notuptome]

Yes, not only conditional, but also we were actually created to do those works. WE were created for a purpose. Adam was not created perfect, but needed to mature through love and obedience. When we believe, we need to do the very same thing. We can fall just as did Adam, even quicker and easier.

The only condition is Gods unchanging grace.

How can you say Adam was not created perfect? God cannot create anything that is flawed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Cassian]

Not by works of righteousness which we have done...what part of SALVATION Through (DIA) FAITH which is IN JESUS CHRIST is so hard to understand!

Foremost this is NOT about salvation, This is always in reference to our bing justified by faith. Being justified is NOT being saved. If we do not follow with the evidence of that faith, then we also are no longer justified, How an one be justified without faith. As long as our faith remains we remain justified, that is, in a correct relationship with God.


I could ask the very same quesitions. Christians for 1500 years prior to Luthers bad notion, never had this problem.

 

[Drett]

A debate can only go this many pages when people are not listening to each other.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If one has a false faith they have NO FAITH to begin with. How CAN AN UNBELIEVER FALL INTO UNBELIEF? An UNBELIEVER IS ALREADY in unbelief. That is in essence what you are saying is that AN UNBELIEVER IS FALLING INTO UNBELIEF. How does that make any sense that someone with NO belief falls into NO belief? Aren't they ALREADY IN unbelief to begin with?

No.

I am saying someone who believes, But never had TRUE faith in God. fell into unbelief.

Many people believe in God, even believe in Christ and his death, But never had faith in his offer of forgiveness based on his promise alone. These people were never saved, Not to mention those who have a pseudo belief. Which are the people I think Paul is talking to in that passage, their FAITH was in the law. It never stopped being in the law. that is why they were so quick to want to return to it. They tried this new christian thing out, because it was new and maybe sounded good. But they never had any faith in it, they had a pseudo belief in it, that is it.

 

[Cassian]

The only condition is Gods unchanging grace.

How can you say Adam was not created perfect? God cannot create anything that is flawed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Such pacity of understanding. If Adam was perfect, he would have already attained immortality and woiuld have been unable to sin. The fact is Adam was created neurtal as to status of nature. He could attain immortaligy or mortality. We know, at least most do, that Adam fell, sinned and the condemnation was death, mortality.

His grace is unchanging which is why He cannot tolerate sin and does not reward sin, now that man has been freed from death and sin. We are going to be held liable for our sin. Sin at present is a test of our faith. Can we resist it, or are we always going to give in to sin. We are commanded to be perfect. That is the goal. That is what we are attaining by our obedience and love working with Him in fear and trembling. Submitting in humility to His grace and mercy.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

For me, personally, right now, I have assurance I am on the right side. But whether I will be on the right side 10 years from now or even three months from now, if He taries, I cannot guarantee. It does not depend on anyone, or anything except MY FAITH.

Thanks, you just proved your depending on self. And not god. which means there is NO grace in your gospel. Because you must merit it. by being in the right side ten years from now..

End of discussion. Well it should be, But you will still be blind to what you are saying.

 

[Cassian]

How many times have you lost and re-gained your salvation???

I Have also taught that a true saved child of God will walk according to the word of God and do the things that are required....

THE SPIRIT that is Born of God...does it sin??? John states clearly that is does not sin...THAT WHICH IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT SIN....

THE SPIRIT that is BORN AGAIN CANNOT SIN AND DOES NOT SIN...so HOW CAN IT LOOSE IT"S SALVATION SEEING HOW IT IS BORN OF GOD AND IS ETERNAL????

But the spirit succumbs to the influence of the flesh and thus sins. Flesh does not sin, neither does just the spirit. They sin or don't sin together, it is called a human nature, one Person. We are not multi natured and each indiependent of each other.

 

[Cassian]

A debate can only go this many pages when people are not listening to each other.

It is not about pages but about 500 years already. Luther started a snow ball rolling and it is still rolling in the sola scriptura milieu.

 

[Cassian]

Your response is laughable at best and there have been numerous posted scriptures that prove that biblical salvation is based entirely on faith yet you reject them in favor of your own gospel that is not biblical, but rather fleshly and sensual as you believe that works save and keep saved<---heresy and double cursed to hell Galatians chapter 1, 3.

no one is questioning that it is based on faith. It is actually based on two things.Grace and faith, Respective of our relationship with Christ is is grace and faith together. We, believe that we are being SAVED THROUGH faith as scripture proclaims, not by faith in a one moment of instant finite salvation guaranteed at the beginning.

LT posted a full page of scripture that you reject while swallowing hook line and sinker catholic doctrine that has been twisted by one of the many churches that have their roots in her so...keep on trusting in your works and your own abilities and I can wait till the day of judgment to see who makes the gates and who doesn't!

this is funny, The only churches that have root in the RCC are all Protestant denominations, sects and groups. I don't know of any other church that has been derived from the RCC.

In those texts of LT not one stated one is saved by faith only. None stated that we are saved finitely upon our first ascent of faith. He posted texts that I fully agree with.

SO ANSWER..HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU LOST YOUR SALVATION AND THEN REGAINED IT?

I have not forsaken my faith as yet. But I cannot guarantee that I might not in the future. After all I am a sinful human being, and what lies ahead I know not. All I can do is what scripture says, believe, which is present tense, active and continuing. If it stops, I am in a lost state, until repentance. If I do not repent, confess my sin, I am lost. Same as all the examples in scripture.

 

[Alligator]

Gen 1:24, Gen 2:7ff. God created man as a whole man, what we call a Person with ONE nature. We were not created to have parts that are indiependent of each other that each cannot operate separatly, independent of each other.

You keep saying I am in error, yet no text that says we are "saved by faith only". Also, you hold a view that one is saved, finitely, upon a moments ascent of faith and ones faith cannot be lost. Yet, not a single text has been put forth that says this.

This is your OP, we have 1033 posts and NOT ONE support text for your premise. Actually we have the other post as well, and that resulted in the same conclusion, there you could not disprove the OP.

You might focus on your objective instead of trying to redefine scripture around to the scripture that has been given in oppsition to the view of "saved by faith only".

Your response is laughable at best and there have been numerous posted scriptures that prove that biblical salvation is based entirely on faith yet you reject them in favor of your own gospel that is not biblical, but rather fleshly and sensual as you believe that works save and keep saved<---heresy and double cursed to hell Galatians chapter 1, 3.

LT posted a full page of scripture that you reject while swallowing hook line and sinker catholic doctrine that has been twisted by one of the many churches that have their roots in her so...keep on trusting in your works and your own abilities and I can wait till the day of judgment to see who makes the gates and who doesn't!

SO ANSWER..HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU LOST YOUR SALVATION AND THEN REGAINED IT?

show me all these verses that say we are saved by faith alone or entirely on faith. I must've missed them.

 

[Stephen63]

You are the one that is in error as this is pure bible and of the truth...again you flap your lips with no scripture and my statement is based upon scripture

There is no contradiction here whatsoever at all in my second post and it is you who ignorantly believe that a man can loose his ETERNAL salvation...keep trusting your works for salvation and you had better drink as much cold water as you can get while you are alive because one day you will beg for one drop as works to keep or fro salvation leads straight to hell and then the lake of fire!

Matthew 7:21-23 ESV
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

​

Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

​

2 Peter 2:20-22 ESV
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
​

Ezekiel 18:24-26 ESV
But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die. “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.

​

Hebrews 10:26-28 ESV
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

​

1 John 2:3-4 ESV
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

Romans 2:6-8 ESV ​

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
​

Romans 11:22 ESV
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
​

Hebrews 6:4-6 [SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

​

Revelation 2:4-7 ESV
But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’
​

Revelation 3:1-6 ESV
“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. “‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
​

2 Peter 1:9-10 ESV
For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
​

Luke 6:46 ESV
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?
​

Galatians 5:4 ESV
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
​

Ephesians 2:10 ESV
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
​

Revelation 22:19 ESV
And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
​

Colossians 1:23 ESV
If indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

How many of these will you cry against? How can you not see? How can you refuse these? I'll tell you how: with excuses & accusations. All you will do is post & tell how wrong I am & try against all odds to make me look wrong. But you won't have a leg to stand on. Who (besides EG) will believe you now?
​

 

[SarahM777]

show me all these verses that say we are saved by faith alone or entirely on faith. I must've missed them.

It seems to me that Paul was quite clear that WITHOUT FAITH it is impossible to please God. So how does one EVEN REPENT WITHOUT FAITH? How can anyone do any WORKS PLEASING to God WITHOUT FAITH?

 

[Alligator]

It seems to me that Paul was quite clear that WITHOUT FAITH it is impossible to please God. So how does one EVEN REPENT WITHOUT FAITH? How can anyone do any WORKS PLEASING to God WITHOUT FAITH?

You can't, I agree with you. But we are not saved by faith alone.

 

[SarahM777]

You can't, I agree with you. But we are not saved by faith alone.

Actually not quite correct. NO ONE is declared righteous by WORKS but by faith. The point they are trying to make is that it is AN ACTIVE,LIVING,BREATHING FAITH out of which comes repentance,baptism,obedience,and love. It is the point that James is trying to make. James very clearly says a dead faith can NOT SAVE.

James 2

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

The Bible is very clear that SAVING FAITH IS ACTIVE not PASSIVE.

 

[TaylorTG]

@SarahM777

Good works are necessary because they help others determine if one's faith is true faith.

"You will know them by their fruits."

If we have faith, than that faith will translate into physical actions, then people will know that we're the real deal.

"They will know we are Christians by our love."



Faith ---> A state of mind
good works ---> A result of that state of mind


Good works is faith in action. You can't have true 100% faith in the Almighty without that faith overwhelming you, causing you to become zealous for the Lord; your zeal will dictate your actions.. Your actions will cause you to produce fruit, your faith helps your actions to produce good fruit, so that others will know that you have true faith.


Prayer helps produce faith
faith helps produce good works

[HR][/HR]


There is nothing in Canon law that states we are saved by works alone. From my own personal experience, I have never attended a sermon in which a Catholic priest taught and promoted a 'saved by works' doctrine.

To teach salvation based upon your own works is heretical!....
2. IN THE GRACE YOU ARE, HAVING BEEN SAVED OUT OF FAITH, NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST

This bible verse does not hinder a 'faith + works = salvation'; it does not at all discourage us from performing good deeds, it just reminds us that faith is the main component of how we're saved.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Actually not quite correct. NO ONE is declared righteous by WORKS but by faith. The point they are trying to make is that it is AN ACTIVE,LIVING,BREATHING FAITH out of which comes repentance,baptism,obedience,and love. It is the point that James is trying to make. James very clearly says a dead faith can NOT SAVE.

James 2

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

The Bible is very clear that SAVING FAITH IS ACTIVE not PASSIVE.

Saving faith is initiated by man, Grace is from God, the faith is our part, and yes we must "save ourselves" :

Acts 2:40 (KJV)
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Philippians 2:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Elin]

warnings are quite irrelevant

Not when you understand that God works through means (second causes),
not directly (as a first cause), in bringing his sons to glory.

Faith comes through the means (second cause) of hearing, not by being dropped into you directly by God.
Renewal comes through the means (second cause) of warnings, not by being dropped into you directly by God.
Sanctification comes through the means (second cause) of obedience, not by being dropped into you directly by God. Etc., etc., etc.

You don't understand the economy of salvation.

And how does this actually speak about what I stated?

Examine it again. . .and maybe you will see its connection to the relevancy of warnings.

Where is all this nonsense about "second causes" come from?

From the same place "Trinity," or "sovereignty of God" or "relationship" comes from.

It's another word for "through means" as distinct from "directly," as explained above.

YOu making this stuff up as you go since you have nothing to support your view from scripture?

I'm sure a surface-deep understanding of Scripture experiences it that way.

Scripture absolutely does speak of counterfeit faith. .
in Mt 7:21-23, as well as Lk 8:13 and 1Jn 2:19,
just as it speaks of the "Trinity," or the "sovereignty of God," or "relationship,"
but your understanding is too shallow to see it.

And I understand quite well your self-serving rational for denying counterfeit faith..

Where does scripture use the term, counterfeit believer? this text surely does not.

It comes from the same place as the phrase "sovereignty of God," or "Trinity," or "relationship."

Are you saying these are not found in Scripture?

True believers do not fall away, only counterfeit believers, as those in
Mt 7:21-23; Lk 8:13; 1Jn 2:19, because they had no salvation in the first place.
Their faith was counterfeit.

But your understanding is too shallow and self-servingly prejudiced against it to see that.

a believer is a believer. YOu can call him anythng you want but he was a believer.

Yep. . .a Buddhist is a believer. . .a Muslim is a believer,
but their faith is counterfeit because they believe in untruth.

A believer does not necessarily have true faith.
Buddhists and Muslims have faith, but it is counterfeit faith, nevertheless.

And those who fall away from their faith in Christianity also have counterfeit faith.
They fell away from their faith in Christianity during their time of trial because
they did not really trust and believe in God in that trial.
Had they trusted and believed in God, they would have persevered in their faith through the trial.

They are assigned with unbelievers because they are unbelievers. . .how did you miss that?

Counterfeit faith is not true faith (Mt 7:21-23), it is actually faith in untruth, which blinds.

So we are to believe that Christ assigns unbelievers with the unbelievers.

So who would you expect them to be assigned with?

In order for anyone to BECOME UNFAITHFUL, one must of necessity be faithful.

As those in Lk 8:13 or 1Jn 2:19 were faithful for a while, but did not persevere in their faith
because it was not true faith, it was counterfeit faith. It did not have a root (rebirth).

You're missing the most important fact about "unfaithful". . .it means without faith.

The unfaithful (without faith) servant loses his faith, because it was counterfeit faith in the first place.
True faith is never lost, that's how you know it is true.
Only counterfeit faith is lost, that's how you know it is counterfeit,
it did not trust and believe in God in the time of trial (Lk 8:13; 1Pe 1:7; Jas 1:3).

Works are necessary for salvation.

Paul emphatically states otherwise. . .that's your own notion.
You'll have to take it up with him.

You accept an authority outside Scripture which can authorize what Scripture does not state.

Therefore, you are wasting your time and ours here.

You rationalize scripture away so that your false notion stands.

I'm sure it appears that way to a surface-deep understanding of the Scriptures,
but you have not shown that any of this is not Biblical.

Non-responsive.

We have irresolvable differences which remove all bases for examining the Scriptures with you.

You accept an authority outside the Scriptures which can authorize what the Scriptures do not state.

Your self-evident error means

you are wasting your time and ours here.

 

[dcontroversal]

Foremost this is NOT about salvation, This is always in reference to our bing justified by faith. Being justified is NOT being saved. If we do not follow with the evidence of that faith, then we also are no longer justified, How an one be justified without faith. As long as our faith remains we remain justified, that is, in a correct relationship with God.


I could ask the very same quesitions. Christians for 1500 years prior to Luthers bad notion, never had this problem.

Cassius you still do not comprehend that to be justified is to be legally rendered innocent before God based upon unmerited favor (grace) based upon faith.=salvation/born again/born from above....it is forever based upon the faith OF JESUS which you do not understand as it is not our faith that saves us, but rather his. The Spirit is born of God and does not sin, cannot loose it's salvation and is ETERNALLY SECURE IN JESUS CHRIST....

Our works do not save us or keep us saved as it is a once for all act and he saves to the uttermost all who BELIEVE in HIM...

Romans 5:1-2 Therefore been justified BY FAITH, we have peace with God THROUGH our LORD JESUS CHRIST: by whom also we have access BY FAITH into this grace wherein we STAND, and rejoice in HOPE of the GLORY of GOD!

 

[dcontroversal]

Saving faith is initiated by man, Grace is from God, the faith is our part, and yes we must "save ourselves" :

Acts 2:40 (KJV)
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Philippians 2:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

You have got to be out of your mind to believe the above bolded...Faith is a SPIRITUAL GIFT from God and it is GOD who initiates salvation....

1. Not that we loved him, but that he loved us...
2. The natural man cannot receive, know or discern the word of God...
3. There is NONE GOOD no NOT ONE....
4. THERE IS NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER ME
5. There is none that seeketh after God
6. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the WORD OF GOD
7. IT IS GOD that CALLS men to SALVATION AND THE ONE WHO INITIATES THE PROCESS
8. There is none that UNDERSTANDETH

No wonder you believe in works for salvation and or to keep salvation...you don't even know who initiates salvation...no wonder you have no understanding of scriptures......WOW WE must save OURSELVES...GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!

Not to mention that the scriptures you used are yanked out of context...what a farce!


FLIPPER'S VIEW as found below<----JABBERJAW

The Bible is very clear that SAVING FAITH IS ACTIVE not PASSIVE. Saving faith is initiated by man, Grace is from God, the faith is our part, and yes we must "save ourselves