Speaking in tongues

[notuptome]

Paul said, "Thou I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love..." He didn't say that everyone spoke in the tongues of angels.

It is widely understood from the context that Paul is speaking hyperbole in this passage. Paul did not say he spoke in the tongues of angels he said though as if it were possible. There is no evidence of angelic languages. None. When angels spoke to men they were heard in human languages.

One of the great errors of Pentecostalism is their very liberal exegesis of the scriptures. If it doesn't say what you want it to say just make it say what you want it to say.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

When you recieve the Holy Ghost You Speak in tounges. Everybody who recieves the Holy Ghost speaks in tounges. But thats not the gift of tounges. Read what you said, the tounges of men, confounded languages which is the gift of tounges, and the tounge of Angels, when one recieves the Holy Ghost.

This is of course vacuous. Wholly abandons the wisdom of scripture.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[cjordan38]

This is of course vacuous. Wholly abandons the wisdom of scripture.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Im going to pray that you recieve and understanding. You are not understanding thenWord at its fullest. May God be with you. Selah!

 

[SeaBass]

This is just circular reasoning. The author wants to arrive at an interpretation where unity doesn't mean unity, and argues in that direction. Maybe the first century church had disunity and internal divisions, as do churches now. That doesn't prove his point. It argues against it, because we haven't attained to the unity of the faith spoken of in the passage, here yet. And there are still those blown about by winds of doctrine. Neither have we we attained to the full measure of the stature of Christ, yet.


If you hold to this interpretation, do yo unbelieve evangelists and pastors still exist? Elders are commanded to pastor in Acts 20 and I Peter 5. Do you believe the church exists without elders now?

Certain offices do still exist as pastors and evangelists, but none have the miraculous gifts. Pastors and evangelists have the complete revealed word of God that has been confirmed by the apostles and therefore pastors and evangelist have no need for those gifts.

 

[SeaBass]

The Bible doesn't teach that the purpose for miracles has been fulfilled. You can't show that in scripture.

1 Cor 13 and Eph 4

That's just an excuse for despising prophesyings. An excuse for disobedience does not justify disobedience.


I wonder why your Bible has so many commands and instructions---for the church-- that are included in it. Why would God have those things put in the Bible if they aren't adequate? I suppose you consider yourself smart enough to determien which instructions written to wide audiences in the epistles should be followed and which should be disregarded.

No one today can prophesy. You choose to believe these modern day false prophets and so there is nothing I can do for you. You have to rightly diivde the word of truth and learn what the purpose of gifts were for and that they hav served thier purpose and ceased. The church today has something the first century church did not have, that being the completed revealed word of God. Therefore the 1st century church had a need for those gifts, for the church at that time was in its infancy and those gifts were as pacifiers ("childish things") for them, yet the church today is mature and has put away those childish things (gifts):

Paul offered a useful illustration to clarify his point. When the church possessed only small bits and pieces of God’s will, as revealed through scattered miraculous gifts and the gradual production, between approximately [SIZE=-1]A.D.[/SIZE] 57 and [SIZE=-1]A.D.[/SIZE] 95, of the written documents from the inspired writers of the New Testament, it could not achieve full spiritual maturity. It therefore was like a child (13:11). It lacked the necessary elements to reach spiritual adulthood. However, when the totality of God’s will, which became the New Testament, had been revealed, the church then had the means available to become “a man” (13:11). Once the church had access to all of God’s written Word, the means by which the Word was given (i.e., miraculous gifts) would be obsolete, useless, and therefore “put away” (13:11). Notice that Paul likened miracles to “childish things” (13:11). In other words, miracles were the spiritual equivalents of pacifiers that were necessary while the church was in a state of infancy. Since we now have access to “all truth” (John 16:13), the use of tongue-speaking and other miraculous enhancements in the church today would be comparable to an adult man or woman who continued to use a pacifier!



Paul then explained his point by comparing the initial necessity of miracles to reveal and confirm God’s Word, with the idea of looking through a clouded mirror (see Workman, 1983, p. 8). Once the entire contents of the New Testament had been revealed, the miraculous gifts no longer would be necessary. Having all of God’s revealed Word would enable one to be face to face with that Word, rather than “looking through a clouded mirror,” i.e., having partial access. Paul wrote (13:11):

Now I know in part [i.e., my knowledge of God’s revelation is incomplete and partial due to limited access via the miraculous element—[SIZE=-1]DM[/SIZE]], but then [i.e., when all of God’s Word is finally revealed—[SIZE=-1]DM[/SIZE]] shall I know fully, even as also I was fully known [i.e., I shall be made to know or taught thoroughly (which is the figure of speech known as heterosis of the verb in which the intransitive is put for the transitive—see Bullinger, 1898, p. 512)—[SIZE=-1]DM[/SIZE]].​

Apologetics Press - Modern-Day Miracles, Tongue-Speaking, and Holy Spirit Baptism: A Refutation
Dave Miller, PhD

That's based on your theory. But if I look at the Bible, I see Jesus warning against false prophets, and encouraging receiving prophets, and claiming He would send prophets. Ephesians shwos us that He ascended and gave gifts, including prophets, to men. The Bible also shows there were prophets even in a predominantly Gentile church far from Jerusalem. Revelation mentions prophets and witnesses prophesying, apparently after the book would be completed.

It's a biblcal fact there are no prophets today. Just false prophets. We today have the complete revealed word of God so there is no need for prophets (childish things)

 

[notuptome]

Im going to pray that you recieve and understanding. You are not understanding thenWord at its fullest. May God be with you. Selah!

Great I will pray that you come to know Christ Whom to know aright is life eternal.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Timeline]

1 Cor 13 and Eph 4





No one today can prophesy. You choose to believe these modern day false prophets and so there is nothing I can do for you. You have to rightly diivde the word of truth and learn what the purpose of gifts were for and that they hav served thier purpose and ceased. The church today has something the first century church did not have, that being the completed revealed word of God. Therefore the 1st century church had a need for those gifts, for the church at that time was in its infancy and those gifts were as pacifiers ("childish things") for them, yet the church today is mature and has put away those childish things (gifts):

Paul offered a useful illustration to clarify his point. When the church possessed only small bits and pieces of God’s will, as revealed through scattered miraculous gifts and the gradual production, between approximately [SIZE=-1]A.D.[/SIZE] 57 and [SIZE=-1]A.D.[/SIZE] 95, of the written documents from the inspired writers of the New Testament, it could not achieve full spiritual maturity. It therefore was like a child (13:11). It lacked the necessary elements to reach spiritual adulthood. However, when the totality of God’s will, which became the New Testament, had been revealed, the church then had the means available to become “a man” (13:11). Once the church had access to all of God’s written Word, the means by which the Word was given (i.e., miraculous gifts) would be obsolete, useless, and therefore “put away” (13:11). Notice that Paul likened miracles to “childish things” (13:11). In other words, miracles were the spiritual equivalents of pacifiers that were necessary while the church was in a state of infancy. Since we now have access to “all truth” (John 16:13), the use of tongue-speaking and other miraculous enhancements in the church today would be comparable to an adult man or woman who continued to use a pacifier!



Paul then explained his point by comparing the initial necessity of miracles to reveal and confirm God’s Word, with the idea of looking through a clouded mirror (see Workman, 1983, p. 8). Once the entire contents of the New Testament had been revealed, the miraculous gifts no longer would be necessary. Having all of God’s revealed Word would enable one to be face to face with that Word, rather than “looking through a clouded mirror,” i.e., having partial access. Paul wrote (13:11):

Now I know in part [i.e., my knowledge of God’s revelation is incomplete and partial due to limited access via the miraculous element—[SIZE=-1]DM[/SIZE]], but then [i.e., when all of God’s Word is finally revealed—[SIZE=-1]DM[/SIZE]] shall I know fully, even as also I was fully known [i.e., I shall be made to know or taught thoroughly (which is the figure of speech known as heterosis of the verb in which the intransitive is put for the transitive—see Bullinger, 1898, p. 512)—[SIZE=-1]DM[/SIZE]].​

Apologetics Press - Modern-Day Miracles, Tongue-Speaking, and Holy Spirit Baptism: A Refutation
Dave Miller, PhD



It's a biblcal fact there are no prophets today. Just false prophets. We today have the complete revealed word of God so there is no need for prophets (childish things)

Even if there are prophets of God these days, we would not hear them. We would still just listen to the false prophets. It concerns me a great deal that I truly believe that if Jesus were to come into our churches today (and not tell us who He is) that many churches would reject Him. I pray that I am wrong, but I don't think so.

Don't go into the "there is only one church thing" - I know there is only one church. I used churches here as a broad term covering all "denominations" and "non-denominations".

 

[as_i_am]

I cannot judge a pastor i haven't myself weren't there listening to his teaching.
But, i myself after 7 years of believing by faith have spoken in tongues. I have also along the way been able to interpret tongues and yes, in THIS lifetime. It is a sign for the unbeliever as scripture says. I was always skeptical of it myself.
I had been saved by faith alone seven years prior, but that level of faith took a whole higher level when i witnessed my own mouth speaking in a un known tongue. I couldn't even speak English for at least 30 minutes and cried the whole time in awe.

However, something more happened than that supernatural experience. As the woman who was praying in front of me fell to her knees with me (apparently in awe as well and was crying on my hand and wiping her tears off with her thumb and at that moment)i got an open eyed vision of Mary Magdeline at my feet. IT was as though the Lord stepped in and gave me a new heart of Love for people at that moment. Not pride at all, but compassion and Love that i had never known for strangers. This is true baptism... a born of love experience that lasts throughout all eternity. I still have my part to do with this gift by investing in it.

Everything, I mean EVERYTHING the bible tells us to do in obedience has it's reward. If you don't believe it or want it, it is totally up to that individual. For me, i want everything the Lord has for me and it has paid off tremendous for me in my life. Who wouldn't want to see supernatural work of God? Who wouldn't want the help in the midnight hour? Anything that the Lord gives to boost my faith i shall receive. I pray i never get to a point where i believe that i don't need even one tiny thing that He offers. If i remain teachable, my reward awaits ME. Be blessed.

 

[notuptome]

Even if there are prophets of God these days, we would not hear them. We would still just listen to the false prophets. It concerns me a great deal that I truly believe that if Jesus were to come into our churches today (and not tell us who He is) that many churches would reject Him. I pray that I am wrong, but I don't think so.

Don't go into the "there is only one church thing" - I know there is only one church. I used churches here as a broad term covering all "denominations" and "non-denominations".

That Jesus is absent in many churches today is a sad reality. I have often opined that if the Apostle Paul were to preach in any church today he would empty the place.

We have been told that the day is coming when men will not endure sound doctrine but will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears. We have what we have because it is what we desire.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

It is widely understood from the context that Paul is speaking hyperbole in this passage. Paul did not say he spoke in the tongues of angels he said though as if it were possible.

In the passage, giving one's body to be burned is certainly possible. So is giving all one has to the poor. At the very least, we should be open to the idea that tongues of angels might be possible.

There is no evidence of angelic languages. None. When angels spoke to men they were heard in human languages.

Yes there is. The verse under discussion. In the accounts of angels speaking to men, they were communicating with men, so it makes sense that they would speak in human languages. Show me a passage of scripture where angels are talking to each other and there are no humans listening to them to record scripture so that others will understand, and you may have a point.

One of the great errors of Pentecostalism is their very liberal exegesis of the scriptures. If it doesn't say what you want it to say just make it say what you want it to say.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I see a lot of this sort of thing with cessationists. I also see a lot of 'it doesn't really mean that' attitude when it comes to the scriptures.

For the cause of Christ
Roger[/QUOTE]

 

[presidente]

Certain offices do still exist as pastors and evangelists, but none have the miraculous gifts. Pastors and evangelists have the complete revealed word of God that has been confirmed by the apostles and therefore pastors and evangelist have no need for those gifts.

I think the problem is that you don't know what charismata means. If God gives men grace to be pastors, and graces the church with pastors, then there still is a charisma around. Pastors and evangelists are 'charismata.'

The Greek doesn't say 'miraculous gifts.' Neither does any translation of scripture I've seen. That's a theological category you have in your mind, but it isn't a category we see in scripture. The Bible uses 'charismata' to designate the working of miracles, administration, pastors, showing mercy, teaching, and exhortation.

And if people aren't operating in 'charismata' (gifts) as stewards of God's 'charis' (grace), then are they just pastoring or evangelizing from their flesh, out of carnality, instead of by the grace of God?

Your way of thinking doesn't match with what I see in the New Testament when I read about spiritual gifts.

 

[presidente]

i got an open eyed vision of Mary Magdeline at my feet.

I know this isn't that relevant, but I'm curious. What did Mary Magdalene look like? Was it that clear to you?

 

[notuptome]

In the passage, giving one's body to be burned is certainly possible. So is giving all one has to the poor. At the very least, we should be open to the idea that tongues of angels might be possible.

Really? What possible reason would God have for such a thing? You can say that it is possible that there are aliens in the universe but that is no more reasonable than angelic tongues or angel languages.

Yes there is. The verse under discussion. In the accounts of angels speaking to men, they were communicating with men, so it makes sense that they would speak in human languages. Show me a passage of scripture where angels are talking to each other and there are no humans listening to them to record scripture so that others will understand, and you may have a point.

So from silence in the scriptures you wish to aver that angels talk to one another in angelic languages? The desperation of that argument should cause even the most ardent Pentecostal to stop and reconsider their position.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I see a lot of this sort of thing with cessationists. I also see a lot of 'it doesn't really mean that' attitude when it comes to the scriptures.

OK there are a great many folks that take liberties with the scriptures. Where is Pentecostalism without tongues? Imagine Pentecostalism without tongues. At the risk of being irreverent that's almost like Christianity without Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[The_highwayman]

Really? What possible reason would God have for such a thing? You can say that it is possible that there are aliens in the universe but that is no more reasonable than angelic tongues or angel languages.

So from silence in the scriptures you wish to aver that angels talk to one another in angelic languages? The desperation of that argument should cause even the most ardent Pentecostal to stop and reconsider their position.

OK there are a great many folks that take liberties with the scriptures. Where is Pentecostalism without tongues? Imagine Pentecostalism without tongues. At the risk of being irreverent that's almost like Christianity without Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

There are more than tongues when speaking about the full Gospel, and it is evident that many here have no clue or idea about the Full Gospel even without talking about tongues....

 

[presidente]

Really? What possible reason would God have for such a thing? You can say that it is possible that there are aliens in the universe but that is no more reasonable than angelic tongues or angel languages.

Maybe you should read the passage carefully before you comment. You don't usually seem too familiar with the particulars of some of the passages we are talking about in these discussions.

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Notice that speaking in the tongues of men and of angels, giving all one's goods away, and giving one's body to be burned ARE mentioned in the passage.

Aliens from outer space are not mentioned in the passage.

It is possible to give one's body to be burned or to give away all one's possessions. If you call that 'hyperbole' those are still possiblities. Paul mentions the possiblity of speaking in tongues of angels in verse 1. He's the one who raised the possibility and it's in the Bible.

So from silence in the scriptures you wish to aver that angels talk to one another in angelic languages? The desperation of that argument should cause even the most ardent Pentecostal to stop and reconsider their position.

No, scripture is not silent. I Corinthians 13:1 raises the possiblity of angelic languages. We should accept that it says that. Calling it 'hyperbole' does not make the scripture silent on the matter.

 

[Von]

Christians who are born again have the holy spirit but that does not mean we can all speak in tounges, the spirit gives us different gifts. Where did this lie begin that you need to be able to speak in tounges!? In the bible it says it is almost useless if there is no-one to interpret what you are saying.

Read 1 corinthians chapter 12, 13 and 14

1 Corinthians 14:1-6

14 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 2 Forone who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.
6 Now, brothers,[a] if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?



1 Corinthians 12:4-11

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to anotherprophecy, to another theability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.


1 Corinthians 12:27-31

27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing,helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.
And I will show you a still more excellent way.



My brothers and sisters, please read your bibles <3

 

[phil112]

........................My brothers and sisters, please read your bibles <3

Von, you are asking a lot of some of these folks.

 

[heavenlyparadise]

speaking in tongue means just speaking foreign languages. non believers can speaking tongue and even the demon speaking tongue. Today's days no need to have this gift. because bible it self speaking 1000 tongue. Why you need?

 

[as_i_am]

I know this isn't that relevant, but I'm curious. What did Mary Magdalene look like? Was it that clear to you?

The woman was face down with long, dark wavy hair. I did not see a face. She was wiping tears off of my feet. The bigger issue was what i felt in the Spiritual realm. So much compassion. I could have felt pride as if she were worshipping me in the natural sense, but i didn't. It was such a love that i felt my heart would burst.

At that point you just know that you know in the Spirit realm what is going on. It is an experience almost unexplainable in human terms and words.

 

[as_i_am]

And tongues when baptised in the Spirit is not the same as the gift of tongues with interpretation. I don't speak in tongues on a regular basis. That happened on maybe two occasions and the second one was the one the Lord interpreted for me. I kept saying over and over "I am Here, Here i am, I am God. Each word was spoken in three different languages that i knew.

The first "sign" of tongues is for the unbeliever to help in their belief, period. This is for a sign and prayer directly to God for the individual only. According to 1 Cor. and Acts. The gift spoken of in 1 cor is has to have an interpreter for it is for edifying the Church.
Any and ALL of the gifts are from the Spirit only and are for the church (those who need them). They come forth at His Will and It has nothing to do with the person (vessel) the Spirit uses.
And to those who accuse others of not reading bibles, i feel i should say that the enemy knew the bible and twisted it to try and cause our Christ to fall. He also tries to cause believers to stumble not just by word, but by spirit.
Not all are teachers, but ALL believers should know the voice of the Shepherd. For example: Accusation with sarcasm filled of pride is NOT the voice of Christ. We all need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling..