Speaking in tongues
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Speaking in tongues as a foreign language, Is just one of the operations,[Manifestations] of tongues,
It is found in Act 2: 4--11.
Then there is a tongue the NO MAN can understand, [Not even a foreigner], But only God can understand.
1 Cor 14: 2.
Then there is a tongue that builds us up. 1 Cor 14: 4.
Then there is a tongue that is our spirit praying, 1 Cor 14: 14--15.
Then there is a tongue we use to sing God's praise, 1 Cor 14: 15-17.
Then there is a tongue that needs an interpretation, 1 Cor 12: 10, & V 30.
Then there are tongues of Angels, 1 Cor 13: 1.
Then there is a tongue that the Holy Spirit uses to intercede for us, Rom 8: 26--28.
This is a tongue that isn't spoken with our native language, But the Holy Spirit needs our tongues in order to intercede for us,
And that is when All things work together for our good.
A person knows when the Holy Spirit takes over their prayers, Our tongues change as the Spirit takes over, As we let Him.
It is called hyperbole because we do not see Paul recommending that the folks in Corinth do all these things. Just like the teacher in Hebrews teaching that if salvation could be lost knowing that it cannot it could not be restored.
Certainly you are not going to teach that we can move literal mountains by faith. You cannot find any instances of angelic languages between humans and angels or angels to angels. Angelic languages could simply be an artistic description of the flowery nature of some human languages.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Certainly you are not going to teach that we can move literal mountains by faith. You cannot find any instances of angelic languages between humans and angels or angels to angels. Angelic languages could simply be an artistic description of the flowery nature of some human languages.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
T
Mary Magdalene never anointed Jesus feet, It was Mary of Bethany, who poured the costly ointment of spikenard,on his feet and washed them with her hair [see John 12]
The sinful woman in Luke 7 was never identified, many have taught the sinful woman was Mary Magdalene, but we are never told and I do not ever teach that, because we are not told who the sinful woman was. Some suggest the sinful woman in Luke 7 was also the Adulteress in John 8 and it was Mary Madelene, but again, I never teach/preach that because the Bible never says who it is.
There are 2 separate occurrences of women anointing and washing the feet of Jesus, the sinful woman and Mary of Bethany, the sister of Martha and Lazarus.
The sinful woman in Luke 7 was never identified, many have taught the sinful woman was Mary Magdalene, but we are never told and I do not ever teach that, because we are not told who the sinful woman was. Some suggest the sinful woman in Luke 7 was also the Adulteress in John 8 and it was Mary Madelene, but again, I never teach/preach that because the Bible never says who it is.
There are 2 separate occurrences of women anointing and washing the feet of Jesus, the sinful woman and Mary of Bethany, the sister of Martha and Lazarus.
"There are still evangelists, pastors and teachers but none have the gifts." If they are not walking by the Spirit and receiving word of wisdom and word of knowledge or discerning of spirits - I wouldn't want any of them teaching me -
Response by Seabass: Eph 4:8 "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."
How long will these gifts last that Christ gave to men?
Eph 4:13 "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God,..."
"Till" is a time limiting word, it has a finishing point
"Unity" carries the idea of oneness
"the faith" refers to the NT gospel
Eph 4:4,5 there is one baptism in effect by the time Paul penned the EPhesian epistle. That one baptism being Christ's human adminstered water baptism of the great commission the ONE baptism the eunuch was baptized with in Acts 8.
You should have read further - John 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized NOT, but his disciples)
That's called eisegesis-- approaching passages of scripture with a set of beliefs in your head, and then saying 'the passage can't mean that, so it must mean something else' because it contradicts your viewpoint.
Do you think Paul is trying to tell the Corinthians, in all cases, not to give all their goods away? Wouldn't tell someone about to be burned in his faith to deny the faith to save his life? I don't think so. These are extreme cases, but not impossible faith.
If Jesus meant what He said about moving mountain literally, then it is literally true. If you want to take a looser approach and consider 'moving mountains' to be a metaphor for doing great things, then you should acknowledge that it is possible to move mountains, if you take it as a metaphor.
Something else to keep in mind is that fire exists, and it is possible to be burned. Giving away all one's possessions is a possibility. Mountains exists. You seem to be arguing that tongues of angels don't exist.
You say, "could simply be". That means you aren't sure. It could also be that Paul witnessed tongues of angels in the third heaven. We don't know. We do know that Paul suggested the possibility of the existence of tongues of angels and of speaking in them. So there is scripture about it. And there is no basis for saying they do not exist since we read about them in scripture.
What you are doing to get rid of the possibility of tongues of angels is eisegesis. You already believe something, so when you see scripture that challenges that, you try to argue the scripture does not apply.
Do you think Paul is trying to tell the Corinthians, in all cases, not to give all their goods away? Wouldn't tell someone about to be burned in his faith to deny the faith to save his life? I don't think so. These are extreme cases, but not impossible faith.
If Jesus meant what He said about moving mountain literally, then it is literally true. If you want to take a looser approach and consider 'moving mountains' to be a metaphor for doing great things, then you should acknowledge that it is possible to move mountains, if you take it as a metaphor.
Something else to keep in mind is that fire exists, and it is possible to be burned. Giving away all one's possessions is a possibility. Mountains exists. You seem to be arguing that tongues of angels don't exist.
You say, "could simply be". That means you aren't sure. It could also be that Paul witnessed tongues of angels in the third heaven. We don't know. We do know that Paul suggested the possibility of the existence of tongues of angels and of speaking in them. So there is scripture about it. And there is no basis for saying they do not exist since we read about them in scripture.
What you are doing to get rid of the possibility of tongues of angels is eisegesis. You already believe something, so when you see scripture that challenges that, you try to argue the scripture does not apply.
Actually I just want to exegete the scriptures in context and in harmony with the rest of scripture.
No Paul is teaching the need to be loving in whatever sacrifice they made. A couple in Acts made a false sacrifice and dies for their acts.
I take what Jesus said as literal but I also know that no man can have enough faith to measure up to a grain of mustard seed. Faith being an essence and not physical matter.
Nope simply that they are not relevant to humans. Nope just trying to be generous toward your position. If tongues were an extreme gift then perhaps we could agree but to see tongues as a common everyday I reject. If tongues were as rare as someone selling their all and giving it to the poor or giving their bodies to be burned for the Lord again I'm open to that. Where If find your position to be disingenuous is that you make the things of God to be common and not holy. You rob God of His purity. Tongues in the modern Pentecostal church dishonors God. The fact that you entertain the idea of speaking in angelic tongues is right up there with a mule telling his master to turn around and go back.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I take what Jesus said as literal but I also know that no man can have enough faith to measure up to a grain of mustard seed. Faith being an essence and not physical matter.
Nope simply that they are not relevant to humans. Nope just trying to be generous toward your position. If tongues were an extreme gift then perhaps we could agree but to see tongues as a common everyday I reject. If tongues were as rare as someone selling their all and giving it to the poor or giving their bodies to be burned for the Lord again I'm open to that. Where If find your position to be disingenuous is that you make the things of God to be common and not holy. You rob God of His purity. Tongues in the modern Pentecostal church dishonors God. The fact that you entertain the idea of speaking in angelic tongues is right up there with a mule telling his master to turn around and go back.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
that "angel tongues" exist in some realm i'm not going to bother questioning. but the only reference to such a language in scripture is dismissive - Love is much greater.
we ought to just plainly take Paul's teaching about tongues, that they need to be interpreted if they are any use to anyone - even to the person speaking in tongues, if their mind does not comprehend it is of no edifying use. and prophesy - the clear and unconfused Word of God - is much more greatly to be desired.
any "service" in which believers are encouraged to speak to themselves & everyone else in an unknown and undecipherable way is encouraging confusion for the sake of the appearance of godliness and directly in contradiction of the teaching in the epistles.
is it sin to desire to speak in tongues? of course not. but we are called to serve God and to serve one another, not to be served: so desire even more to be able to praise Him clearly and in a way that may be understood!
we ought to just plainly take Paul's teaching about tongues, that they need to be interpreted if they are any use to anyone - even to the person speaking in tongues, if their mind does not comprehend it is of no edifying use. and prophesy - the clear and unconfused Word of God - is much more greatly to be desired.
any "service" in which believers are encouraged to speak to themselves & everyone else in an unknown and undecipherable way is encouraging confusion for the sake of the appearance of godliness and directly in contradiction of the teaching in the epistles.
is it sin to desire to speak in tongues? of course not. but we are called to serve God and to serve one another, not to be served: so desire even more to be able to praise Him clearly and in a way that may be understood!
This is eisegesis. You interpret the passage literally, but don't want to believe that someone could have enough faith to speak to a mountain and it move. So you come up with some 'bogus' pseudo-science answer to explain away a verse you find difficult. How can anyone read that passage and think that Christ's real secret message there was that it was impossible to have that much faith, since faith can't be measured like physical matter? What an alien concept to the text, or the hearers of it in the immediate context.
So I take it you concede that the gift of tongues has not ceased, right?
And this is because of seeing tongues 'as a common everyday.' If everyone in a church speaks in tongues often, for example, that makes it too 'common' for you?
What about salvation? What if a church experienced people being saved every week, and everyone in the church claimed to be saved. Would that make salvation 'common' because a lot of it was happening?
What about donkeys? Do you reject the idea of Balaam's donkey speaking along with the idea of angelic tongues?
So I take it you concede that the gift of tongues has not ceased, right?
And this is because of seeing tongues 'as a common everyday.' If everyone in a church speaks in tongues often, for example, that makes it too 'common' for you?
What about salvation? What if a church experienced people being saved every week, and everyone in the church claimed to be saved. Would that make salvation 'common' because a lot of it was happening?
What about donkeys? Do you reject the idea of Balaam's donkey speaking along with the idea of angelic tongues?
[1]Love is important, And speaking in tongues is speaking in the Spirit, Praying in tongues is praying in the Spirit, And Jude says we build ourselves up by praying in the Holy Ghost, Keeping ourselves in the LOVE of God.
Paul also said speaking in tongues builds us up.
If tongues aren't that important, Why would God give them to the Church??.
Paul wasn't saying don't speak in tongues, He was just saying the fact that to speak so people could understand is important.
One of Pauls final words in 1 Cor 14:was, "Forbid not to speak in tongues".
i wouldn't forbid anyone, but counsel a better thing:
Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.
(1 Corinthians 14:13-15)
what use is it to desire to speak or pray what no one can understand? so i'm not trying to dissuade anyone from the gifts, but i do think there are places where it's not the spirit, but the tongue, that's desired, and a spirit that isn't the spirit of truth is celebrated.
Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.
(1 Corinthians 14:13-15)
what use is it to desire to speak or pray what no one can understand? so i'm not trying to dissuade anyone from the gifts, but i do think there are places where it's not the spirit, but the tongue, that's desired, and a spirit that isn't the spirit of truth is celebrated.
The eight-fold reasons God gave us tongues are ALL vey useful.
The tongues that speak mysteries, are useful, Because as we speak in tongues, our spirit is sensitive to the Spirit of God, And He can show us the mysteries.
The tongues that build us up, are useful, because they do what it says, "Build us up".
The tongues that are our spirit pray language, are useful, because it's our spirit praying for what our minds can't think about.
Tongues are useful, because the devil can't intercept our prayers.
Tongues of Angels are useful, because God can use them to help us bind the devil, and the devil being a fallen angel, will be able to understand the tongues of Angels.
Tongues that the Holy Spirit uses to intercede for us, and through us for other people, or some circumstance, are useful, because God uses then so all things work together for our good, Or the good of others.
Tongues that are a foreign language, are useful, Because God can use us to speak to a foreigner.
Tongues that need an interpretation, are useful, because they edify the Church.
i feel like this whole section of 1 Corinthians where tongues is discussed was written because Paul received word from the church in Corinth saying "whoo-hoo! tongues this! tongues that! shouldn't we all speak in tongues? tongues are so great; we don't even know what we're saying"
so Paul wrote back careful not to dismiss the gift, or to discourage them, but to try to lead them past the point of being so enamored, so that they could continue to grow, and understand much better things.
it's no secret that churches exist that are more concerned about speaking in tongues - regardless of whether anyone understands them, or if they are a real manifestation or a deception - than they are about growing in grace and teaching the whole Word of God. from the tone of the epistle and the apostles insistence that things be done in an orderly way, interpreted correctly through the Spirit, and the greater emphasis he puts on clear understanding, i doubt that this sort of situation in a church is any new thing to history.
what i mean to say is we ought to be careful not to lose sight of Christ for the sake of spectacle. we need to recognize that tongues are a real thing, and a good thing, but that they aren't the best thing, or even a necessary thing. they are like a knife - a very useful tool that can be very dangerous when not handled carefully. tongues can be a blessing, and they can & have become an idol for some too. i wouldn't take all the knives out of anyone's kitchen, but i hope you'll all be careful with them, and not leave them in the hands of children.
so Paul wrote back careful not to dismiss the gift, or to discourage them, but to try to lead them past the point of being so enamored, so that they could continue to grow, and understand much better things.
it's no secret that churches exist that are more concerned about speaking in tongues - regardless of whether anyone understands them, or if they are a real manifestation or a deception - than they are about growing in grace and teaching the whole Word of God. from the tone of the epistle and the apostles insistence that things be done in an orderly way, interpreted correctly through the Spirit, and the greater emphasis he puts on clear understanding, i doubt that this sort of situation in a church is any new thing to history.
what i mean to say is we ought to be careful not to lose sight of Christ for the sake of spectacle. we need to recognize that tongues are a real thing, and a good thing, but that they aren't the best thing, or even a necessary thing. they are like a knife - a very useful tool that can be very dangerous when not handled carefully. tongues can be a blessing, and they can & have become an idol for some too. i wouldn't take all the knives out of anyone's kitchen, but i hope you'll all be careful with them, and not leave them in the hands of children.