Does God chose people?
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Joshua, Deuteronomy, Kings -- words spoken to a chosen people
But you, Israel, my servant,
Jacob, whom I have chosen,
the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
you whom I took from the ends of the earth,
and called from its farthest corners,
saying to you, “You are my servant,
I have chosen you and not cast you off”;
fear not, for I am with you;
be not dismayed, for I am your God;
I will strengthen you, I will help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.
(Isaiah 41:8-10)
James -- words spoken to a chosen people
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
(Ephesians 1:3-4)
your argument is circumstantial, but the argument of election is by direct testimony of the Word.
does this mean there is no requirement of man? of course not! but the requirement is to walk humbly before Him - so is glorifying my own will in keeping with humility and the sovereignty of God?
to those who have not faith, salvation seems a choice to be made, but to those who have received His grace, it is an unmerited, undeserved gift from heaven, and we being bought by Him do not consider ourselves to have of our own choosing jumped into His shopping cart.
Israel as a nation was God's chosen, just as the group Christian is God's chosen that James speaks about.
Michah 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" It is up to man to choose to do justly and love mercy and to walk humbly with God.
What requirement can their be of man if God has already decided each man's eternal fate before the world even began, where man can co nothing of his own but only do what God forces him to do? What/how can God require of a man if God has already predetemined that man cannot meet what God requires?
Michah 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" It is up to man to choose to do justly and love mercy and to walk humbly with God.
What requirement can their be of man if God has already decided each man's eternal fate before the world even began, where man can co nothing of his own but only do what God forces him to do? What/how can God require of a man if God has already predetemined that man cannot meet what God requires?
why did the Lord preserve Israel, who time and again forsook Him?
I will strengthen the house of Judah,
and I will save the house of Joseph.
I will bring them back because I have compassion on them,
and they shall be as though I had not rejected them,
for I am the Lord their God and I will answer them.
(Zechariah 10:6)
because He is their God, and for the sake of His name!
did Israel of it's own decide to be His people? we know He chose them for Himself.
now He also says:
You shall not put the Lord your God to the test, as you tested him at Massah. You shall diligently keep the commandments of the Lord your God, and his testimonies and his statutes, which he has commanded you.
(Deuteronomy 6:16-17)
who says "the Lord has chosen us therefore we need not follow Him?"
certainly not me! i don't think your friend Calvin said that either. maybe he did? i don't know nor do i care to know - i follow Christ, not Calvin. Christ did not call me to judge whether God shows mercy to the correct people or not, but to rejoice that He has shown it to me, and to invite you also to receive and give thanks for this same mercy!
I will strengthen the house of Judah,
and I will save the house of Joseph.
I will bring them back because I have compassion on them,
and they shall be as though I had not rejected them,
for I am the Lord their God and I will answer them.
(Zechariah 10:6)
because He is their God, and for the sake of His name!
did Israel of it's own decide to be His people? we know He chose them for Himself.
now He also says:
You shall not put the Lord your God to the test, as you tested him at Massah. You shall diligently keep the commandments of the Lord your God, and his testimonies and his statutes, which he has commanded you.
(Deuteronomy 6:16-17)
who says "the Lord has chosen us therefore we need not follow Him?"
certainly not me! i don't think your friend Calvin said that either. maybe he did? i don't know nor do i care to know - i follow Christ, not Calvin. Christ did not call me to judge whether God shows mercy to the correct people or not, but to rejoice that He has shown it to me, and to invite you also to receive and give thanks for this same mercy!
i am happy to remind you again and again:
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?
(Romans 9:14-20)
it's not as though you have discovered some secret logic that has never been seen on the earth before. your stance is directly addressed by Paul 2000 years ago
isn't God good! His Word is sufficient.
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?
(Romans 9:14-20)
it's not as though you have discovered some secret logic that has never been seen on the earth before. your stance is directly addressed by Paul 2000 years ago
isn't God good! His Word is sufficient.
He chose Nebudchanezzar to be His servant, a pagan king who did not know Him and who followed many other gods.
He chose Saul to be His servant, a blind teacher of the law who zealously persecuted all who followed Jesus.
did post choose these people? did SeaBass choose these people? did logic choose these people? was their calling and station the reward of their zeal?
but the Lord Himself chose them, according to His own wisdom, and His ways are not our ways, nor His thoughts, our thoughts.
He chose Saul to be His servant, a blind teacher of the law who zealously persecuted all who followed Jesus.
did post choose these people? did SeaBass choose these people? did logic choose these people? was their calling and station the reward of their zeal?
but the Lord Himself chose them, according to His own wisdom, and His ways are not our ways, nor His thoughts, our thoughts.
Israel was God's chosen to bring the Messiah into the world and that was God's purpose for them. When they finally rejected Christ God rejected them as His chosen and grafted in the Gentiles. The fact God cast off the once chosen Jews and grafted in the once non-chosen Gentiles is the totaly opposite of what Calvinism teaches. So even those Israel was God's chosen that did not mean automatic salvation for they still had to obey God to be saved, most did not therefore will be lost.
i am happy to remind you again and again:
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?
(Romans 9:14-20)
it's not as though you have discovered some secret logic that has never been seen on the earth before. your stance is directly addressed by Paul 2000 years ago
isn't God good! His Word is sufficient.
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?
(Romans 9:14-20)
it's not as though you have discovered some secret logic that has never been seen on the earth before. your stance is directly addressed by Paul 2000 years ago
isn't God good! His Word is sufficient.
why are you still harping about 'Calvanism'? i don't know anything about Calvinism; don't care to; i thought this thread was about God..
it's on God's basis. do you think God is 'random'?
let's try this again:
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
One of you will say to me:
What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory — even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
(Romans 9:14-24)
now i know you don't like it, and you'd rather satisfy your own carnal mind than simply respect the sovereignty of God, but that is the answer that scripture gives to exactly your question.
& it's not just Paul saying this:
Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots! Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’ or ‘Your work has no handles’?
Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’ or to a woman, ‘With what are you in labor?’”
Thus says the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and the one who formed him:
“Ask me of things to come; will you command me concerning my children and the work of my hands?
I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.
(Isaiah 45:9-12)
and what was the answer God gave to Job?
Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
(Job 38:2)
so again Paul wrote:
“For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
(1 Corinthians 2:16)
now will we fear God, or will we tell Him how he ought to act?
forget "Calvin" and forget "post" and forget "SeaBass" and let's examine the scriptures themselves, and what the Word and the Spirit teach. they teach humility before a sovereign God, don't they? or do they teach that God waits on human logic before He shows mercy or compassion, before He judges or reproves? do the Scriptures teach that man knows the mind of God?
do we judge God or does God judge us? here is a quote from a man that they say had a little bit of wisdom:
Be not rash with your mouth, nor let your heart be hasty to utter a word before God,
for God is in heaven and you are on earth.
Therefore let your words be few.
(Ecclesiastes 5:2)
it's on God's basis. do you think God is 'random'?
let's try this again:
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh:“I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.One of you will say to me:
“Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”
But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?“Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory — even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
(Romans 9:14-24)
now i know you don't like it, and you'd rather satisfy your own carnal mind than simply respect the sovereignty of God, but that is the answer that scripture gives to exactly your question.
& it's not just Paul saying this:
Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots! Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’ or ‘Your work has no handles’?
Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’ or to a woman, ‘With what are you in labor?’”
Thus says the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and the one who formed him:
“Ask me of things to come; will you command me concerning my children and the work of my hands?
I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.
(Isaiah 45:9-12)
and what was the answer God gave to Job?
Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
(Job 38:2)
so again Paul wrote:
“For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
(1 Corinthians 2:16)
now will we fear God, or will we tell Him how he ought to act?
forget "Calvin" and forget "post" and forget "SeaBass" and let's examine the scriptures themselves, and what the Word and the Spirit teach. they teach humility before a sovereign God, don't they? or do they teach that God waits on human logic before He shows mercy or compassion, before He judges or reproves? do the Scriptures teach that man knows the mind of God?
do we judge God or does God judge us? here is a quote from a man that they say had a little bit of wisdom:
Be not rash with your mouth, nor let your heart be hasty to utter a word before God,
for God is in heaven and you are on earth.
Therefore let your words be few.
(Ecclesiastes 5:2)
It is very telling how cherry pickers work to supposedly support a theory.
Twice now, posthuman has quoted two different verses from the same context, a context that actually has the answer within it. Rom 11:32. Christ had mercy upon all men. Upon the world. He is the Savior of the world, John 4:42. There is NO chosing particular persons to salvation.
When a Calvinist/Reformed cannot answer to scripture, this is the fallback answer. Rom 9.
Twice now, posthuman has quoted two different verses from the same context, a context that actually has the answer within it. Rom 11:32. Christ had mercy upon all men. Upon the world. He is the Savior of the world, John 4:42. There is NO chosing particular persons to salvation.
When a Calvinist/Reformed cannot answer to scripture, this is the fallback answer. Rom 9.
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J
I just recently read all of Romans. The main idea, at least I felt like, was that God, by his Sovereign decree, chose to give Salvation to the Gentiles and not simply the Jews. The Jews would find this extremely repulsive as they believed God would only ever show them mercy. I think Paul uses such strong language to get it across to them that God chooses who he wants to save in terms of people groups. He chose Jacob over Esau (Israel over Edom) through whom Jesus would come and he chose not just the Jews, but the entire world to bring His Salvation to.
I didn't get the impression (although I can certainly see the confusion) that God picks and chooses at random who would be saved.
I didn't get the impression (although I can certainly see the confusion) that God picks and chooses at random who would be saved.
L
In the light of practicality, it doesn't matter. I see God's sovereignty in election throughout Scripture, but a person doesn't need to see that in order to be saved.
I realize that some criticize those who hold to election, but I still don't see the point in all heresy cries and insults.
Some seem to have the impression that eternal security makes Believers sin, and that election makes God evil:
Those are untrue, and fruitless accusations. Please stick to the ACTUAL issue at hand, not preconceived notions of the results of holding to a doctrine (unless you have an actual example, and even then, it is really not an appropriate form of debate).
I realize that some criticize those who hold to election, but I still don't see the point in all heresy cries and insults.
Some seem to have the impression that eternal security makes Believers sin, and that election makes God evil:
Those are untrue, and fruitless accusations. Please stick to the ACTUAL issue at hand, not preconceived notions of the results of holding to a doctrine (unless you have an actual example, and even then, it is really not an appropriate form of debate).