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C
If it wasn't for the Crusades we would be here talking about Islam, perhaps you do not realize or have not been told how close Christian Europe came to utter annihilation, what did Christ say; "There is no greater deed than a man lay down his life for his friends.", We should keep that in mind, I know the Crusaders did.
M
Thats not true man, christianity survived great persecution again and again. The "christianity" that led to the crusades was not real christianity, I mean seriously buying your salvation by going to war, talk about a load of crap. And yes Christ did say that and I totally agree with what he had to say, and he said "lay down his life for his friends", not go out and kill other people's friends. You also forget the text surrounding that statement: "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command." Laying down our life for our friends is to be done as Christ did in a non-violent manner as we are supposed to love as he does.
C
"Suppose ye that I have I come to give peace on earth? I tell you, No; but rather division."
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
Jesus was not a be at peace with the world pacifist, Christianity is not a pacifist religion. Love is from God, and only those who have the son of God have love of the Father, love is among the body of Christ, and there are no enemies and no division for those in the body of Christ...I would rather be with the Christianity of the Crusaders than your false worldly christianity.
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
Jesus was not a be at peace with the world pacifist, Christianity is not a pacifist religion. Love is from God, and only those who have the son of God have love of the Father, love is among the body of Christ, and there are no enemies and no division for those in the body of Christ...I would rather be with the Christianity of the Crusaders than your false worldly christianity.
G
Jesus is the one who executes vengeance, not us. Those verses were not out of context, but you're applying them incorrectly. Everything--EVERYTHING--in the New Testament indicates that we are not to be violent. If you are loving your enemy, how can you be violent towards him? Do I need to list some scriptures that back this up? Come on, this is a message at the heart of new testament teaching.
M
I don't ignore them but the second one is something being said by the MASTER in the parable which is GOD, not you or me. And the first talks about division, you can have division without violence and anyone who says otherwise is just not trying hard enough. I have division with others christian and otherwise, without ever resorting to violence and it works just fine.
And how dare you insult my christianity by saying its worldly if anything yours would be more worldly than mine because the way of this sinful world is violence.
And how dare you insult my christianity by saying its worldly if anything yours would be more worldly than mine because the way of this sinful world is violence.
Got to disagree with this, there were a few aims of the Crusades, the popular one (And the one preached to the population) was taking Jerusalem back. However the underlying motives were to drive back islamic aggressors and aid the Byzantine Empire.
Violence in Chrisitianity is an interesting subject, I can understand total pacifism arguments, however... If a friend of yours is about to be hurt badly/killed by another person and you have the power to stop this, (violently) would you let your friend be hurt?
What if it wasn't all physical and instead he was just being robbed every day by people... and you had the power to stop this violently, would you?
What if they were suffering under an oppressive regime with a dictator who did not allow things such as freedom of speech and persecuted & threw in jail anyone who said anything that wasn't his political views? Religious views even? Would you stop this had you the power.
What about the American civil war & slavery?
It's very tricky subject and to be honest I'm not sure what our christian response should be - but I do not think we should be standing idly by and letting people persecute & suppress others at will. Some people (don't know about myself) might even consider it their christian duty to protect others. Evil flourishes when good men do nothing... (yeah I know it's not biblical) and after all, Israel fought to protect itself & went to war in ancient days & participated in mass killings.
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Also there is a significant difference between the different crusades and their reasoning for going, I think the discussion here is primarily focussed on the 1st crusade. The others had different reasons for going and heck the 4th one sacked Constantinople.
Violence in Chrisitianity is an interesting subject, I can understand total pacifism arguments, however... If a friend of yours is about to be hurt badly/killed by another person and you have the power to stop this, (violently) would you let your friend be hurt?
What if it wasn't all physical and instead he was just being robbed every day by people... and you had the power to stop this violently, would you?
What if they were suffering under an oppressive regime with a dictator who did not allow things such as freedom of speech and persecuted & threw in jail anyone who said anything that wasn't his political views? Religious views even? Would you stop this had you the power.
What about the American civil war & slavery?
It's very tricky subject and to be honest I'm not sure what our christian response should be - but I do not think we should be standing idly by and letting people persecute & suppress others at will. Some people (don't know about myself) might even consider it their christian duty to protect others. Evil flourishes when good men do nothing... (yeah I know it's not biblical) and after all, Israel fought to protect itself & went to war in ancient days & participated in mass killings.
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Also there is a significant difference between the different crusades and their reasoning for going, I think the discussion here is primarily focussed on the 1st crusade. The others had different reasons for going and heck the 4th one sacked Constantinople.
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C
Love does not exist outside of God, are you suggesting Christians should love anti-christs? It is you who does not understand the New Testament, it is you who dwells with and loves anti-christs and of this world and are at peace with it imagine your own vain religion! Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, don't you know that?
M
Yes that is true, but I was pointing out that the "church" of the day went about it in the wrong way.
The answer to that is no, would I lay my life down for them yes. But I would not be violent as in the end violence solves nothing and causes more pain.
Not violently, Jesus told us that the world would hate us and persecute us.
The answer to that is no, would I lay my life down for them yes. But I would not be violent as in the end violence solves nothing and causes more pain.
Not violently, Jesus told us that the world would hate us and persecute us.
C
Dear me, there is no love outside the body of Christ! Are you suggesting that Christians should love anti-christs? Because that is not what Jesus is saying, do you know anything about the Sermon on the Mount? Do you know who Jesus is addressing in His early ministry and why? Do you realize how He was able to break down the divisions that existed within the Tribes of Israel and Judah, and how it was nessessary to unite His diciples even though they had once been enemies of each other having fought many wars against each other - but now Jesus Christ says their are no enemies within My body, if you were enemies I command you to love one another as I have loved you! This is within the body of Christ, because if you don't have the Son you don't have the Father, and love is from God.
So I don't know what type of religion you have, but its not Christianity, you seem to not understand Christianity even though you have a Bible! Why do you love antichrists, why do love those who hate Christ and hate God? You believe you must love these people who hate God? You are sadly mistaken...
So I don't know what type of religion you have, but its not Christianity, you seem to not understand Christianity even though you have a Bible! Why do you love antichrists, why do love those who hate Christ and hate God? You believe you must love these people who hate God? You are sadly mistaken...
K
WHAT??!! Im SO confused!
Old Testament folk (Jews) had no idea about Jesus.
And hold on...
Wasnt Saul (Paul) an anti Christian terrorist before he converted? Oh how different the world would be today if Barnabas didnt love him..
What is wrong with being at peace with dwelling and loving those who are unchristian aye? We passionately love God and have a personal relationship with his Son who was the forerunner of loving those who were anti him.
Many of us have to deal with family members not supporting our beliefs and even being very anti Christian but we still love them because their our family. I hold the same regard for others who arent my family as well...
Old Testament folk (Jews) had no idea about Jesus.
And hold on...
Wasnt Saul (Paul) an anti Christian terrorist before he converted? Oh how different the world would be today if Barnabas didnt love him..
What is wrong with being at peace with dwelling and loving those who are unchristian aye? We passionately love God and have a personal relationship with his Son who was the forerunner of loving those who were anti him.
Many of us have to deal with family members not supporting our beliefs and even being very anti Christian but we still love them because their our family. I hold the same regard for others who arent my family as well...
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