Crusaders?

[Cup-of-Ruin]

yes but enemies of God are not generally people as God has also instructed us to hate sin not the sinner. Enemies of God would be spiritual enemies(ie the devil and his demons)

No that is a Gandhi quote, that's not Christianity either, you have the wrong religion, you love the world! You want to be friends with it, you want peace, you want everbody to get together and love one another! Well I tell you that God is Love, that comes from God, that does not come from any human being let me tell you that our hearts are wicked, and there is no love outside of Christ...None...

 

[Meridoc]

yes that is true but when we accept God we are in God and He is in us which means that we should love like He does, and sorry dude He DIED for us while we were still sinners. If God can love sinners than so should we, and if we love sinners how can we harm them.

I don't get why people are so interested in perverting the bible so they can be allowed to be violent and kill people and thats my last 2 cents because I can't debate with someone who feels the need to insult me rather than proving me wrong with bible verses in context.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

yes that is true but when we accept God we are in God and He is in us which means that we should love like He does, and sorry dude He DIED for us while we were still sinners. If God can love sinners than so should we, and if we love sinners how can we harm them.

I don't get why people are so interested in perverting the bible so they can be allowed to be violent and kill people and thats my last 2 cents because I can't debate with someone who feels the need to insult me rather than proving me wrong with bible verses in context.

The spirit of the Devil works in those that perish.

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God; every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is the spirit of the anti-christ, whereof you have heard that it would come, and even now is already in the world." John 4:2-3

Love is from God, while yet we (Christians) were sinners, God loved us (Christian), so we should love one another (Christian)....

God chooses whomever He wills, it is a free gift from God, He says that those that do not have the Son do not have the Father and they are the spirit of the anti-christ! If you want to love antichrists, then that is not the love of God.

"Ye (Christians) are of God, little children and have overcome them (antichrists): because greater is he (Christ) that is in you, than he (spirit of the devil) that is in the world. They (antichrists) are of the world: therefore they speak of the world, and the world heareth them. We (Christians) are of God, he that knoweth God heareth us (Christians), he that is not of God heareth us not. Hereby know we (Christians) the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. Beloved let us love one another (Christians) for love IS OF GOD, and everyone that loveth (God) IS BORN OF GOD, and knoweth GOD. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE." John 4:4-8

 

[Stuey]

I totally agree! and with groundhogs statement, if you love your enemies how can you harm them.

If you love your kids you will discipline them properly (I think there is somewhere in the ot about an iron rod, mabye that's a little harsh. ) but that is an example of where you would use harm/hurt against those you love. Not sure if it is the same situation as violence to protect though.

Dear me, there is no love outside the body of Christ! Are you suggesting that Christians should love anti-christs? Because that is not what Jesus is saying, do you know anything about the Sermon on the Mount? Do you know who Jesus is addressing in His early ministry and why? Do you realize how He was able to break down the divisions that existed within the Tribes of Israel and Judah, and how it was nessessary to unite His diciples even though they had once been enemies of each other having fought many wars against each other - but now Jesus Christ says their are no enemies within My body, if you were enemies I command you to love one another as I have loved you! This is within the body of Christ, because if you don't have the Son you don't have the Father, and love is from God.

So I don't know what type of religion you have, but its not Christianity, you seem to not understand Christianity even though you have a Bible! Why do you love antichrists, why do love those who hate Christ and hate God? You believe you must love these people who hate God? You are sadly mistaken...

Cup here is the verse I was talking about earlier. It quite clearly says to love your enemies... You might be a little confused with one of the verses similar to this.

It's Romans 12
9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.

We are told to hate what is evil and cling to what is good, but this doesn't mean to hate people who are not christians. We are told to love them & pray for them instead of judging them.

I would also point to how jesus died on the cross - loving those who denied him and asking his father to forgive them. The definition of an Antichrist is someone who denies jesus is christ.

Matthew 5:43-48 (New International Version)

Love for Enemies

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[b] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.Footnotes:

1. Matthew 5:43 Lev. 19:18
2. Matthew 5:44 Some late manuscripts enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you

Also cup, I think your taking this verse out of context. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

I think the verse is talking about the end times when god judges the people, the servants who produced more money (or good deeds/followers) were rewarded and those who did not were punished. The punishment is delivered at the end of time to gods enemies - By god and not his servants, so I don't think we can use that verse to justify killing people.

At least this is how I have understood the verse and I haven't heard anything to contradict it.


I wont post it here but here is a link to the chapter http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke 19&version=NIV

Cheers,

Stuey

 

[Peacefulcrusader]

No offense but I find you using the phrase "Islamic hordes" incrediably narrow minded and offensive and borderline racist.
Why are you focusing solely on Islam? What about Maoism? Buddhism? Shintoism (and even more worse in my opinion) twisted 'christian' cults?
How about loving people first and foremost regardless of what they believe in? You aint going to make many friends let alone lead others to Christ by calling other peoples 'hordes' as if their some kind of savage.

Speaking as a history student - do you know what the early christian church and govt did to convince people to join the crusade? Money and lost christian relics that the muslims were supposedly 'harbouring.' People believed them and hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children and decent men were murdered who could have been quietly converted by normal missionaries who could have tried to adapt Christianity into their culture like with the Celts and Vikings. Preventing the spread of Islam is total bull. During that period in history the entire middle east was a hub of peace compared to the tiny country of Rome on its own. While the East were gaining sophiscated technology and methods of travel and exploring, Europe was learning new ways of killing each other and how to spread the plague.

Hi Kiwi.

First I want to say that I believe you bring some sound criticism into this discussion. Your words challenge much of what others have said so far, that is good.

Still, I would myself (as a history student too), question your general view of history shown in your comment. I would surely agree that much of what you say belong to a greater picture of the Crusades and Middle Age era - but I can't really accept all of what you say, especially not without putting in important nuances. I'm quite afraid that parts of what you claim is derived from modern myths (myths which were strong from ca 1900 to modern days, but which have been more and more questioned).

All the best, Magnus

 

[Marcus2x2]

This subject is very interesting from the perspective that there is seldom a topic like it that attracts so many revisionists of any description!

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Cup here is the verse I was talking about earlier. It quite clearly says to love your enemies... You might be a little confused with one of the verses similar to this.

It's Romans 12
9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.

Yea these verses are all for Christians, before Christs ministry on earth the Tribes of Israel and Judah were at war with each other many times, Sermon on the Mount addresses these issues as Jesus brought His diciples together, they were from different classes and backgrounds, some were scholars and teachers others were merchants and traders, some were military men, soldiers, others were shepard boys, some were house wives, some children, some parents, etc, etc! Christ brings his followers together to be one in Him, there are no enemies in the body of Christ, here is love, the love of God. It never, EVER means that a Christian should love the enemies of Christ and God, to think that would be the biggest mistake you could make, I would account this with rejection of the Holy Spirit, the unforgivable sin, to love the anti-christ the enemy of God that manifests itself in those that perish .

We are told to hate what is evil and cling to what is good, but this doesn't mean to hate people who are not christians. We are told to love them & pray for them instead of judging them.

Yes it does mean you are to hate that which is not from God, you are NOT to pray for them, you ARE to judge them as not having the spirit of God, if you judge them as having the spirit of God, then you have sinned against the Holy Spirit, and this is unforgiveable, and I would advise you to repent, quickly.

I would also point to how jesus died on the cross - loving those who denied him and asking his father to forgive them. The definition of an Antichrist is someone who denies jesus is christ.

Peter had already accepted Christ, and had been baptized by Jesus Christ (washing of the feet)! When you have had your feet washed by the Lord of the Universe, God can deal with you how He feels fit. Peter had been chosen as an Apostle from the foundation of the world...He was diciplined and corrected for sin, but he had still been chosen by God and accepted this, when we sin we deny God, have you not ever sinned and denied God what is His? Of course we have, Peter denied Him and was corrected by God personally and repented. However if someone continually and habitually denies Jesus Christ and attacks His body, then a line must be drawn in the sand.

Matthew 5:43-48 (New International Version)

Love for Enemies

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[b] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Do you think God is telling you to love Satan?

God is saying hostility is not tolerated within the diciples of Christ, the Sermon on the Mount is an address to the diciples and followers of Jesus Christ, in Jesus' early ministry it was necessary to address the divisions that existed within the Tribes of Israel and Judah, this is an exclusive sermon. Are you suggesting that Christians should love those that hate Jesus Christ? Well you cannot, because love does not exist outside the body of Christ and that is how a Christian can love even his enemy WITHIN THE BODY OF CHRIST!

"For the purpose of the Son of God was manifested, the he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin (Against His Spirit); For His seed (people) remaineth in Him; and he cannot sin (in God's eyes because of the Advocate) because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not rigtheousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother (adelphos, from a connective particle, lit. - from the womb - delphus)." John 3:8-10

Do you understand what John is saying? do you understand the difference between love between connective particles, brothers from the womb? do you understand how there cannot be hate whithin the connective tissues of the body of Christ, amongst His brothers who are born of Him - His "seed" (sperma), that means offspring, and specifically a remnant seed, born of God, that is reserved to be born of God as co-inheritor, with Him Christ Jesus, your brother, you have been planted on earth, that is what it literally means planted on earth as God's own physical sperm, His seed, born of God! But as John says there are some that are not from Him, they are not of God's seed, they are children of the devil. There is no love between the children of the devil and the children of God, neither can there be, they are of the world, and we are to hate the world, because we are from above, we are not from the world but sent into the world...

 

[MahogonySnail]

You're wrong Cup of Ruin the bible does say to love your enemies and the early christians were pacifists not going around killing heathens and forcing them to convert by forcing snakes down their necks.
I don't know what's hard to understand about that.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

You're wrong Cup of Ruin the bible does say to love your enemies and the early christians were pacifists not going around killing heathens and forcing them to convert by forcing snakes down their necks.
I don't know what's hard to understand about that.

No 'Snail, Bible does not say to love the enimies of God, Satan is manifest in those that perish, how can a house be divided and stand, there are no enemies in the body of Christ, I have explained that to you, are you suggesting that Christians should love the devil that is manfest in those who are NOT of God? Where did I say anything about forceful conversion? I did not, only God can convert someone and they must be born of God as John says, then they would know God, they would hear His voice, if they do not then they are not from God, they are the apirit of the antichrist! Early Christians were not pacifists, Christianity has never been a pacifist religion, the Lord God is not a pacifist, you know what happens to His enemies? Do I need to explain it to you?

 

[kiwi_OT]

Hi Kiwi.

First I want to say that I believe you bring some sound criticism into this discussion. Your words challenge much of what others have said so far, that is good.

Still, I would myself (as a history student too), question your general view of history shown in your comment. I would surely agree that much of what you say belong to a greater picture of the Crusades and Middle Age era - but I can't really accept all of what you say, especially not without putting in important nuances. I'm quite afraid that parts of what you claim is derived from modern myths (myths which were strong from ca 1900 to modern days, but which have been more and more questioned).

All the best, Magnus

Thankyou Magnus for your constructive criticism and I humbly accept it. You probably know more than me anyway. Technically Im a health student but I study history on the side, and I havent taken a paper on the crusades so I apologise for that and my lack of knowledge. The reason I wrote it (which admittedly was in anger) at the remark before mine. My previous statements were also made to back up Meriadoc's thoughts on why violence is unnecessary.

Cup of ruin, I think your recent comments are bordering on lunacy. Have you noticed that no one has supported nor backed up your thoughts and are in fact disagreeing with you? You are doing a lot of digging, but it is only you who will fall into that hole.

 

[MahogonySnail]

No 'Snail, Bible does not say to love the enimies of God,

whose enemies is it talking about then?

Why would God expect us to love our enemies, but to hate His? Are we better than God, that we are able to love our enemies, but God is not able to love His? Why would God tell us to do something that he Himself is not prepared to do?

 

[greatkraw]

How close do the Muslim hoards have to come to pounding at your door today before you think it is OK to pick up arms?

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

whose enemies is it talking about then?

Didn't I just explain that. If you have and enemy in the world, then within Christ's body you shall love your enemy, not His, we know what happens to His, they get ruled with an iron rod and crushed under foot unless they yield. Do you understand the difference between a Christian and a non-Christian, because I don't think that you do, because if you claim that the spirit of God, which is the spirit of love exists in those not of God and hate Christ and reject Him, then you sin against the Holy Spirit.

Why would God expect us to love our enemies, but to hate His?

Still don't get it do you? "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world, if any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." John 2:15

It's not you love and His love, there is only one love and that is the love of the Father, you have no enemies in Christ, outside of Christ there is no love because God is love.

Are we better than God, that we are able to love our enemies,

You don't have any love, love is from God!

but God is not able to love His? Why would God tell us to do something that he Himself is not prepared to do

What happens to antichrists 'Snail? What is God going to do to those that continually reject Him, that blaspheme His holy Name, over and over and over again, they rebel spitting on Him, cursing Him, mudering His precious children, stealing from Him, following other false dumb idols that they have created in their own minds, or making themselves god, trying to usurp the soveriegn Lord, what is going to happen to them 'Snail? You tell me? What does your Bible say?

 

[MahogonySnail]

Cup what about praying for those who persecute you? Clearly, it is not talking about those within the body of Christ, the language is general, it says enemies in general.

Think about it, if God did not love His enemies, he could not have sent Jesus to die for us, because we all were His enemies, to turn us from His enemies to His friends. What do you think?

 

[greatkraw]

wow, we aussies are busy this morning

The only true church is the Low Church of England

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Cup what about praying for those who persecute you?

Are they diciples of Christ like those at Sermon on the Mount that heard the voice of the Lord ande followed Him, then if they persecute me in the world then I pray for them because they have an Advocate, and i shall be heard!

Clearly, it is not talking about those within the body of Christ, the language is general, it says enemies in general.

Well they were in the body of Christ, does love exist outside of Christ? Bible says that it does not. No love outside of God.

Think about it,

I have, you should think about it, instead of loving the spirit of the antichrist.

if God did not love His enemies, he could not have sent Jesus to die for us, because we all were His enemies, to turn us from His enemies to His friends. What do you think?

The sin in you is the sin of the flesh, the Spirit of God is given to a Christian, God is love, God cannot hate what is His.

"Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us (not you love, His love that was given to you) that we (christains) should be called the sons of God." John 3:1

 

[Marcus2x2]

Aren't we digressing?? We're meant to be talking about the Crusades!

 

[MahogonySnail]

The only true church is the Low Church of England

Seriously?

 

[MahogonySnail]

Cup your logic doesn't make sense like most things you write. Why do you think we were God's enemies and yet he still loved us while we were enemies, yet you say we should not love our enemies? Doesn't make sense.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Cup your logic doesn't make sense like most things you write. Why do you think we were God's enemies and yet he still loved us while we were enemies, yet you say we should not love our enemies? Doesn't make sense.

You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with John, whom I am quoting.

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ (God) is come in the flesh is of God."

"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ (God) has come in the flesh is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist."

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."

Notice how John says that God is love, does not say, human is love, or Cup-of-Ruin is love or 'Snail is love, it says God is love. John is correct, so who is of God? Those that confess that God has come in the flesh, the righteous one Jesus Christ, if you knoweth Him then this is love, this love is not of your own. He loved you first! Do you understand this, Does it make sense to you what John is telling you, this love in Christ is not of your own, love is only in those who have been given it by God, there are no enemies in God's presence, among His children that are His 'seed'.