Misconceptions of Calvinism

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H

Hoffco

Guest
#61
But apart from Jesus drawing us no one comes. So how is one counted guilty for not coming to Christ if he is not drawn irresistibly to the Son?
Because God doesnt force the sinner to reject Christ, the sinner makes this choice freely on his own free will. But , God gave the sinner the evil nature with which the Sinner freely chooses sin; And the way up is the same, God does not force the sinner to come to Christ against His free will, God changes the sinners nature, heart , so the sinner freely choices Christ. The rougher answer is, "who are you " to answer back to your creator,! God ca do what ever He wants too,.! Rom.9 Love to all, Hoffco
 
S

Spokenpassage

Guest
#62
Because God doesnt force the sinner to reject Christ, the sinner makes this choice freely on his own free will. But , God gave the sinner the evil nature with which the Sinner freely chooses sin; And the way up is the same, God does not force the sinner to come to Christ against His free will, God changes the sinners nature, heart , so the sinner freely choices Christ. The rougher answer is, "who are you " to answer back to your creator,! God ca do what ever He wants too,.! Rom.9 Love to all, Hoffco
Hold up now, God didn't give man a sinful nature, that was the result of Adam's fall, because of it our free will is in bondage to our own sin, unless it is beautifully swept by the mercy and grace of God. :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jan 21, 2013
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#63
The Truths of TULIP are scriptural and set forth the premises of the Gospel of God's Grace, we reject them to our eternal peril ! There is simply no believing the Gospel of God's Grace Acts 20:24

24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Without embracing TULIP !
 

Rachel20

Senior Member
May 7, 2013
1,639
105
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#64
Fact: ''Calvinism acknowledges that all human beings make various choices in life. However, when it comes to making a decision for God, reformed theology affirms that no one seeks God or receives Christ on their own without being spiritually awakened by God and enabled to do so.''

The common objection is, ''then how can God hold a person guilty for not believing in Christ if God never awakened and enabled him?''

...please answer.


You know it's funny how even depraved people have a sense of justice :rolleyes:...
 

Rachel20

Senior Member
May 7, 2013
1,639
105
63
#65
Fact: ''Calvinism acknowledges that all human beings make various choices in life. However, when it comes to making a decision for God, reformed theology affirms that no one seeks God or receives Christ on their own without being spiritually awakened by God and enabled to do so.''

The common objection is, ''then how can God hold a person guilty for not believing in Christ if God never awakened and enabled him?''

...please answer.
"I'm not trying to. Obviously I am vexed at a majority of you on this thread. Are you a Lutheran by chance, just so if so."

I was at one time...again LCMS/WELS/ELS/Independent but one journey's on. tra-la-la-la-la

Haha, this guy is cool :cool:
 
Apr 22, 2014
648
5
0
#66
There are quite a few of people here who intentionally bash the doctrines of grace using misconceptions, whether taught by unlearned men, or by their own folly come to such conclusions, or just not aware of what it is. I will help to show some misconceptions that many Christians have assumed about Calvinism. Let us examine and fix the faulty thinking in this blessed doctrine of grace.

T – Total Depravity


Misconception: People don’t have “free will” and are basically robots without any ability to choose on their own.

Fact
: Calvinism acknowledges that all human beings make various choices in life. However, when it comes to making a decision for God, reformed theology affirms that no one seeks God or receives Christ on their own without being spiritually awakened by God and enabled to do so.

It is no understatement to say that once a person fully understands the doctrine of total depravity, all other points in Calvinism are easy to accept. Get this teaching wrong, and you have a theological mess on your hands.

Do people make choices? Of course, each and every day, and on many different levels. But when it comes to salvation in Christ, the Bible is clear that each person is born in sin (Ps. 51:5), spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1), and morally incapable of coming to Christ by themselves (1 Cor. 2:14, Rom. 8:6-7).

Jesus made the explicit statement, “No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father” (John 6:65), which clearly showcases an inability in everyone to freely choose Christ unless granted by the Father (see also John 6:44). Once an unbeliever is spiritually called by God out of their darkness (2 Tim. 1:8-9) and their eyes are opened (John 9:39), they then willingly receive Jesus as Savior.

James White sums up the correct position well when he says: “Reformed Christians believe that men believe and choose. It is the order of events that is in dispute. Every Christian has chosen Christ, believed in Christ, embraced Christ, and even more, continues to do so. The question is not ‘must a person believe,’ but can a person believe while a slave to sin? Further, whose decision comes first: the decision of God to free the enslaved, dead sinner and give him the ability to believe, or the free-choice decision of the sinner that then makes him or her one of the elect?”

U – Unconditional Election

Misconception: The doctrine that says God chooses who will be saved is incredibly unfair.

Fact: Reformed theology upholds that no one deserves salvation and that God displays incredible mercy in saving those He chooses.

Arthur Pink began one message in Australia many years ago by saying, “I am going to speak tonight on one of the most hated doctrines of the Bible, namely, that of God’s sovereign election.”

By far, the most uttered complaint against election is that it’s not fair. And yet, every Christian acknowledges they don’t deserve God’s mercy and His salvation – that it’s “fair” if God chose to judge all sinners as being unworthy of spending eternal life with Him.

That being the case why is it considered repugnant if God chooses to show mercy to some and allows His justice to fall on others who willingly continue in their sin? Would a governor be considered an ogre and unfair simply because he/she decided to grant amnesty to one criminal while others are left to carry out their proper sentence?

Those who reject election believe in choice, but they don’t want God to choose; they want humanity to choose instead. This seems more fair and just to them.

However, Paul anticipated this response from the audience that received his letter to the Romans. In chapter 9, after carefully laying out the doctrine of election, Paul specifically and proactively answers the charge of unfairness with God and clearly spells out that salvation has nothing to do with our choice but is rather His alone:

“What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy” (Rom. 9:14–16).

Such a statement from Paul makes absolutely no sense if the Apostle believed that we are the ultimate decision maker where salvation is concerned vs. God. From a human standpoint, what would be unfair about that?

L – Limited Atonement

Misconception: Only Calvinism limits the atonement of Christ on the cross.

Fact: Outside of Universalists, every Christian believes in limited atonement.

Unless you’re a Universalist and believe that everyone will eventually be saved, then you believe that the atonement of Christ is limited and that it automatically doesn’t save all of humanity.

How is the atonement limited? It is limited to those who believe (John 3:16).

But how does a person come to believe? This is where we must boomerang back up to the “T” and “U” of Calvinism’s TULIP and first understand how God saves those He chooses.

But as to who truly limits Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, reformed pastor Charles Spurgeon offers these helpful words in this semi-lengthy, but helpful quote:

“We are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ. Because we say that Christ has not made a satisfaction for all men or all men would be saved. Now our reply to this is on the other hand our opponents limit it, we do not. The Arminians say Christ died for all men. Ask them what they mean by that. Did Christ die to secure the salvation of all men? They say no, certainly not. We ask them the next question: Did Christ die to secure the salvation of any one person in particular? They say no. They’re obliged to say that if they’re consistent. They say, no, Christ has died that any man may be saved if ... and then follow certain conditions of salvation…“Now, who is it that limits of the death of Christ? Why, you - you say that Christ did not die so as to infallibly secure the salvation of anybody. We beg your pardon. When you say we limit Christ’s death we say no my dear sir it is you that do that. We say that Christ so died that He infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number who through Christ’s death not only may be saved but will be saved and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it.”

I – Irresistible Grace

Misconception: God drags people kicking and screaming against their will into His kingdom.

Fact: Reform theology teaches that God lovingly overcomes the natural rebellion in the sinner’s heart so that they may accept His gift of salvation.

J. I. Packer sums up this doctrine in a very succinct manner when he says, “Grace proves irresistible just because it destroys the disposition to resist.”

A passage in Acts showcases this efficacious call of God in action: “And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to a riverside, where we were supposing that there would be a place of prayer; and we sat down and began speaking to the women who had assembled. A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. ” (Acts 16:13–14).

Another point worth making is that this call is not given to everyone. This fact is evident in Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians: “But we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God” (1 Cor. 1:23-24).

Notice the same two groups are preached to (Jews and Gentiles) and yet only those called by God (also Jews and Gentiles) are saved by His grace. These are the ones who receive God’s efficacious call (i.e. His irresistible grace).

P – Perseverance of the Saints

Misconception: A person remains saved no matter how they live their life.

Fact: Calvinism teaches that a professing Christian with no change in behavior and no movement toward sanctification proves that they were never saved to begin with.

Reformed scholar and pastor John Piper tells the story of a woman who heard a message he delivered on the perseverance of the saints (which says a born again Christian can never lose their salvation, but will persevere to the end). She came to him and stated that she was in an adulterous affair, but because she was saved, she intended to continue in her affair without any worry about losing her salvation.

Piper’s reply to her was direct and rare in our current sugar-coated, seeker-friendly church environment: “God will damn you to Hell if you continue in your sin.”

In making that statement, Piper was simply affirming the Bible’s teaching that the fruit of the tree identifies the type of tree (Matt. 12:33). In no way does Calvinism teach that a person born again may continue in their rebellion, sin against God, and see eternal life with the Creator.

Instead, reformed theology upholds just the opposite: that a true Christian will manifest holy affections that prove their salvation, although they will always struggle with the sin nature that they have (see Romans 7). For an excellent treatment of this subject, see Jonathan Edward’s magisterial work, “A Treatise Concerning Religious Affections”.

Conclusion

While I have no fanciful dreams that the above will instantly turn those who oppose Calvinism into reformed theologians, I do hope that perhaps some of the faulty critiques aimed at the doctrines of grace will be blunted, and that believers will take their Bible in one hand and some accurate teaching of reformed theology in the other, and at least understand the positions in a more accurate way.

Information -->
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2986316/posts



There is no misconceptions about Calvinists.
They are a group of Biblically ignorant people who says God is a respecter of people, Which makes their god a sinner.
The reason I say "Their god", Is, Because their god isn't the God of the Bible, [The heavenly Father].
 
May 31, 2014
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#67
Relative to the OP is its egregious misconception that the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is NOT an offense of the written code of law. His death was caused by committing the sin of murder against him. Then upon his ascension back to heaven and his installation according to the promise made only to him "You are a priest forever" the LAW was also changed by adding one word to it. Salvation is therefore predicated upon the faith to OBEY the LAW which has been added or commit the sin by law that is not forgivable. The doctrine of salvation relative to Calvinism is the reverse of that lawful protocol. For it shifts the responsibility of resolving the sin of the Lord's murder by the faith of individual obedience of God to God being the responsible agent for prior election of who is or is not saved. There is NOT any accurate teaching of the Way God has by the sin of his only begotten son's murder perfected for salvation within any doctrine of "Reformed Theology".
 
G

gregfl

Guest
#68
[h=1][SIZE=+3]Why is Calvinism a Cult?[/SIZE][/h]
Calvinism is a cult for many reasons. Cultlike behavior is always marked by an idolatrous desire to the cult itself. This is especially true in Calvinism.

Why is Calvinism a Cult?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,216
6,550
113
#69
Did not read the OP.............don't need to..........did not read all the comments........don't really need to..........

Why?

Simple............look at the Title of the OP:

Misconceptions of Calvinism


...........goodness............Calvin's theology in and of itself is a "misconception."

.misconception.......

n. noun

  • A mistaken thought, idea, or notion; a misunderstanding.
 
May 31, 2014
179
0
0
#70
[SIZE=+3]Why is Calvinism a Cult?[/SIZE]


Calvinism is a cult for many reasons. Cultlike behavior is always marked by an idolatrous desire to the cult itself. This is especially true in Calvinism.

Why is Calvinism a Cult?
For many years the contemporary churches did assert that Calvinism/Presbyterianism was a cult. Is this assertion true? Probably IMO. One of the more recent facts pertinent in support of this allegation is a booklet written and published by John Piper titled "God Killed Jesus". If anything is more blasphemous I am not aware of it. Peter describes the type of man who does that as being "Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;" 2. Pt. 2:10b. Peter also asserts that "They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity-". 2 Pt 2:19. If you will note that the author of this OP praises John Piper.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
#71
Let's pick up on limited atonement.
In practical terms, if Christ died only for the elect,
How can you tell a person, ''Jesus died for you.''?
How can you be sure you are one of the elect that Jesus died for unless you go by some type of subjective experience? There is no Scripture you can point to and say "I am one of the elect''. Assurance goes out the door.
On the other hand with biblical promises (non Calvinistic), I can point to many Scriptures that state 'Christ died for ALL or the World' and confidentally say "I am part of thebworld,therefore Christ died for me!'...objectively based in Scripture.
I know Calvinists weasel words, changing 'all' to mean 'some' and 'world' to be a figure of speech, but gee, can't Scripture say just once, 'Christ died only for a few'
or 'Christ died only for the elect'.
 
Last edited:
Mar 28, 2014
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#72
There are quite a few of people here who intentionally bash the doctrines of grace using misconceptions, whether taught by unlearned men, or by their own folly come to such conclusions, or just not aware of what it is. I will help to show some misconceptions that many Christians have assumed about Calvinism. Let us examine and fix the faulty thinking in this blessed doctrine of grace.
T – Total Depravity
Misconception: People don’t have “free will” and are basically robots without any ability to choose on their own.

Fact
: Calvinism acknowledges that all human beings make various choices in life. However, when it comes to making a decision for God, reformed theology affirms that no one seeks God or receives Christ on their own without being spiritually awakened by God and enabled to do so.

It is no understatement to say that once a person fully understands the doctrine of total depravity, all other points in Calvinism are easy to accept. Get this teaching wrong, and you have a theological mess on your hands.

Do people make choices? Of course, each and every day, and on many different levels. But when it comes to salvation in Christ, the Bible is clear that each person is born in sin (Ps. 51:5), spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1), and morally incapable of coming to Christ by themselves (1 Cor. 2:14, Rom. 8:6-7).

Jesus made the explicit statement, “No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father” (John 6:65), which clearly showcases an inability in everyone to freely choose Christ unless granted by the Father (see also John 6:44). Once an unbeliever is spiritually called by God out of their darkness (2 Tim. 1:8-9) and their eyes are opened (John 9:39), they then willingly receive Jesus as Savior.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


[h=3]Romans 1:18-20
[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:



James White sums up the correct position well when he says: “Reformed Christians believe that men believe and choose. It is the order of events that is in dispute. Every Christian has chosen Christ, believed in Christ, embraced Christ, and even more, continues to do so. The question is not ‘must a person believe,’ but can a person believe while a slave to sin? Further, whose decision comes first: the decision of God to free the enslaved, dead sinner and give him the ability to believe, or the free-choice decision of the sinner that then makes him or her one of the elect?”
U – Unconditional Election

Misconception: The doctrine that says God chooses who will be saved is incredibly unfair.

Fact: Reformed theology upholds that no one deserves salvation and that God displays incredible mercy in saving those He chooses.

Arthur Pink began one message in Australia many years ago by saying, “I am going to speak tonight on one of the most hated doctrines of the Bible, namely, that of God’s sovereign election.”

By far, the most uttered complaint against election is that it’s not fair. And yet, every Christian acknowledges they don’t deserve God’s mercy and His salvation – that it’s “fair” if God chose to judge all sinners as being unworthy of spending eternal life with Him.

That being the case why is it considered repugnant if God chooses to show mercy to some and allows His justice to fall on others who willingly continue in their sin? Would a governor be considered an ogre and unfair simply because he/she decided to grant amnesty to one criminal while others are left to carry out their proper sentence?

Those who reject election believe in choice, but they don’t want God to choose; they want humanity to choose instead. This seems more fair and just to them.

However, Paul anticipated this response from the audience that received his letter to the Romans. In chapter 9, after carefully laying out the doctrine of election, Paul specifically and proactively answers the charge of unfairness with God and clearly spells out that salvation has nothing to do with our choice but is rather His alone:

“What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy” (Rom. 9:14–16).

Such a statement from Paul makes absolutely no sense if the Apostle believed that we are the ultimate decision maker where salvation is concerned vs. God. From a human standpoint, what would be unfair about that?
[h=3]1 Timothy 2:1-5
[/h]King James Version (KJV)

2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;



L – Limited Atonement

Misconception: Only Calvinism limits the atonement of Christ on the cross.

Fact: Outside of Universalists, every Christian believes in limited atonement.

Unless you’re a Universalist and believe that everyone will eventually be saved, then you believe that the atonement of Christ is limited and that it automatically doesn’t save all of humanity.

How is the atonement limited? It is limited to those who believe (John 3:16).

But how does a person come to believe? This is where we must boomerang back up to the “T” and “U” of Calvinism’s TULIP and first understand how God saves those He chooses.

But as to who truly limits Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, reformed pastor Charles Spurgeon offers these helpful words in this semi-lengthy, but helpful quote:

“We are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ. Because we say that Christ has not made a satisfaction for all men or all men would be saved. Now our reply to this is on the other hand our opponents limit it, we do not. The Arminians say Christ died for all men. Ask them what they mean by that. Did Christ die to secure the salvation of all men? They say no, certainly not. We ask them the next question: Did Christ die to secure the salvation of any one person in particular? They say no. They’re obliged to say that if they’re consistent. They say, no, Christ has died that any man may be saved if ... and then follow certain conditions of salvation…“Now, who is it that limits of the death of Christ? Why, you - you say that Christ did not die so as to infallibly secure the salvation of anybody. We beg your pardon. When you say we limit Christ’s death we say no my dear sir it is you that do that. We say that Christ so died that He infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number who through Christ’s death not only may be saved but will be saved and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it.”
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


I – Irresistible Grace

Misconception: God drags people kicking and screaming against their will into His kingdom.

Fact: Reform theology teaches that God lovingly overcomes the natural rebellion in the sinner’s heart so that they may accept His gift of salvation.

J. I. Packer sums up this doctrine in a very succinct manner when he says, “Grace proves irresistible just because it destroys the disposition to resist.”

A passage in Acts showcases this efficacious call of God in action: “And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to a riverside, where we were supposing that there would be a place of prayer; and we sat down and began speaking to the women who had assembled. A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. ” (Acts 16:13–14).

Another point worth making is that this call is not given to everyone. This fact is evident in Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians: “But we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God” (1 Cor. 1:23-24).

Notice the same two groups are preached to (Jews and Gentiles) and yet only those called by God (also Jews and Gentiles) are saved by His grace. These are the ones who receive God’s efficacious call (i.e. His irresistible grace).
  • 2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

  • Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

P – Perseverance of the Saints

Misconception: A person remains saved no matter how they live their life.

Fact: Calvinism teaches that a professing Christian with no change in behavior and no movement toward sanctification proves that they were never saved to begin with.

  • Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.


Reformed scholar and pastor John Piper tells the story of a woman who heard a message he delivered on the perseverance of the saints (which says a born again Christian can never lose their salvation, but will persevere to the end). She came to him and stated that she was in an adulterous affair, but because she was saved, she intended to continue in her affair without any worry about losing her salvation.

Piper’s reply to her was direct and rare in our current sugar-coated, seeker-friendly church environment: “God will damn you to Hell if you continue in your sin.”

In making that statement, Piper was simply affirming the Bible’s teaching that the fruit of the tree identifies the type of tree (Matt. 12:33). In no way does Calvinism teach that a person born again may continue in their rebellion, sin against God, and see eternal life with the Creator.

Instead, reformed theology upholds just the opposite: that a true Christian will manifest holy affections that prove their salvation, although they will always struggle with the sin nature that they have (see Romans 7). For an excellent treatment of this subject, see Jonathan Edward’s magisterial work, “A Treatise Concerning Religious Affections”.
Conclusion

While I have no fanciful dreams that the above will instantly turn those who oppose Calvinism into reformed theologians, I do hope that perhaps some of the faulty critiques aimed at the doctrines of grace will be blunted, and that believers will take their Bible in one hand and some accurate teaching of reformed theology in the other, and at least understand the positions in a more accurate way.

Information -->
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2986316/posts
Follow Christ let Calvin speak for himself brother
Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.
 
May 31, 2014
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#73
Let's pick up on limited atonement.
In practical terms, if Christ died only for the elect,
How can you tell a person, ''Jesus died for you.''?
How can you be sure you are one of the elect unless you go by some type of subjective experience? There is no Scripture you can point to and say "I am one of the elect''.
On the other hand with biblical promises (non Calvinistic), I can point to many Scriptures that state 'Christ died for ALL or the World' and confidentally say 'therefore Christ died for me!'...objectively based in Scripture.
I know Calvinists weasel words, changing 'all' to mean 'some' and 'world' to be a figure of speech, but gee, can't Scripture say just once, 'Christ died only for a few'
or 'Christ died only for the elect'.
That Christ died for all is true, but the assumption that he died in place of all is the lie which has been exchanged for the truth of God about Jesus's crucifixion. John Calvin was a lawyer. The flaw within the doctrine of substitutionary atonement is that it proffers the false conjecture of receiving a direct self serving unjust enrichment by the disobedience of the law which Calvin readily recognized. However Calvin was more interested in maintaining his political power associated to the "Reformed" religious movement and did not dare point out the inherent flaw within the theory of substitutionary atonement. Masking the flaw he proffered the idea that atonement was limited to a certain pre-selected group to avoid the conspicuous error of substitutionary atonement. We live with Calvin's timidity even today.
 
S

Spokenpassage

Guest
#74
I think a lot of people here have an emotional problem with the doctrines. I started this thread because people had misconceptions of the doctrines of grace, not to debate what it is. From the first reply to the last (above me) it is apparent that whoever replied against the doctrine wasn't following the OP's intentions.

I'm not here to enforce my beliefs on any of you, that is not my goal. I made this thread specifically to point out people's misconceptions of the doctrines...so if they do talk about it, or study it, they will know what we really believe and not what is assumed.

Thank you for those who were patient with me and didn't attack. Bless you guys that don't believe.
 
May 31, 2014
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#75
I think a lot of people here have an emotional problem with the doctrines. I started this thread because people had misconceptions of the doctrines of grace, not to debate what it is. From the first reply to the last (above me) it is apparent that whoever replied against the doctrine wasn't following the OP's intentions.

I'm not here to enforce my beliefs on any of you, that is not my goal. I made this thread specifically to point out people's misconceptions of the doctrines...so if they do talk about it, or study it, they will know what we really believe and not what is assumed.

Thank you for those who were patient with me and didn't attack. Bless you guys that don't believe.
And you are not one of the people here I suppose?
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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#77
Fact: ''Calvinism acknowledges that all human beings make various choices in life. However, when it comes to making a decision for God, reformed theology affirms that no one seeks God or receives Christ on their own without being spiritually awakened by God and enabled to do so.''

The common objection is, ''then how can God hold a person guilty for not believing in Christ if God never awakened and enabled him?''

...please answer.
God is all powerful.

"How" is not a problem with him.

If your question is, how can God justly hold a person guilty for not believing in Christ if God never awakened and enabled him, Paul asks and answers that question, and it is in his post:

By far, the most uttered complaint against election is that it's not fair. And yet, every Christian acknowledges they don’t deserve God’s mercy and His salvation – that it’s “fair” if God chose to judge all sinners as being unworthy of spending eternal life with Him.

That being the case why is it considered repugnant if God chooses to show mercy to some and allows His justice to fall on others who willingly continue in their sin? Would a governor be considered an ogre and unfair simply because he/she decided to grant amnesty to one criminal while others are left to carry out their proper sentence?

Those who reject election believe in choice, but they don’t want God to choose; they want humanity to choose instead. This seems more fair and just to them.

However, Paul anticipated this response from the audience that received his letter to the Romans. In chapter 9, after carefully laying out the doctrine of election, Paul specifically and proactively answers the charge of unfairness with God and clearly spells out that salvation has nothing to do with our choice but is rather His alone:

“What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy” (Rom. 9:14–16).

Such a statement from Paul makes absolutely no sense if the Apostle believed that we are the ultimate decision maker where salvation is concerned vs. God. From a human standpoint, what would be unfair about that?
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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#78
Let's not change up the question. How is one man judged guilty for not believing when another has had their eyes awakened and have been enabled to believe?
The question is not "how."
God is all powerful. "How" is not an issue.
The question is about justice, how is it just?
And that question is asked and answered in the word of God.

Are you saying his word is not to be received?
Are you saying God should have another answer more to our liking?

"One of you will say to me: 'Then why does God blame us? For who resists his will?'
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?
'Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?"
(Isa 29:16, 45:9)
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery
for noble purposes (flower vase; belief) and some for common use (human waste; unbelief)?"
(Ro 9:19-21)

The only answer the word of God gives to man's objection to election is the sovereignty of God.

He's God and we're not.


 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
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#79
The question is not "how."
God is all powerful. "How" is not an issue.
The question is about justice, how is it just?
And that question is asked and answered in the word of God.

Are you saying his word is not to be received?
Are you saying God should have another answer more to our liking?

"One of you will say to me: 'Then why does God blame us? For who resists his will?'
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?
'Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?"
(Isa 29:16, 45:9)
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery
for noble purposes (flower vase; belief) and some for common use (human waste; unbelief)?"
(Ro 9:19-21)

The only answer the word of God gives to man's objection to election is the sovereignty of God.

He's God and we're not.


I don't know how we got on 'the all powerful' bit, I don't believe I ever brought up that issue.
The point of justice is closer to home.
As the song says and as you quoted in Romans' because He is God and that is just the way it is.' 'He is the potter we are the clay'...all true.
Still it doesn't attempt at a justification except God is God. It essentially leaves the question open, "How is it fair, that God picks some and not others' and judges guilty the one's He doesn't elect?
The Calvinist response should 'be we don't know why'...but instead they continue piling up attempted justifications for their system.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#80
Its the adult version of my daddy can whip your daddy