No trust in Creation...no trust in Genesis....no trust in Scriptures...

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Is creation a "salvation issue"

  • Yes it's vital to mans need for salvation

    Votes: 14 53.8%
  • No creation is unconnected to salvation

    Votes: 10 38.5%
  • Never considered any connection

    Votes: 2 7.7%

  • Total voters
    26
  • Poll closed .
Feb 16, 2014
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I disagree, if science is observation and experimentation, then it would seem Creationist theories have far more scientific weight than Chaos theories. Evolution could fit within either Creationism or Chaos depending on what theories of evolution are held. For example Mendellian genetics version of evolution clearly supports Creationism, specifically Biblical Creation Theory, and can fit within the factual parameters that the earth is young. As where a strict Darwinist interpretation of evolution follows Chaos theory, specifically abiogenesis, and also old earth mythology.
1. This is nonsense since Darwin didn't theorize the origins of life.

2. You condensed all the proofs you disagree with as "chaos theories", and brushed them aside with the assumption that chaos theories are automatically wrong.

3. You fail to understand that chaos theory has as much of an influence on macro-evolution as much as it has an influence on micro-evolution.

4. If you wish to disprove evolution, you need to disprove the specific evidences that support it. You can't just say, "it's chaos theory, therefore false."
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Evolution is supported by science.

Creationism isn't supported by science. It isn't science. It doesn't follow anything that has to do with science.
I disagree.

there is more proof in creation than their is in evolution.

but you have FAITH your science is more proof.

so you just proved what I said.




It's the exact opposite. Anything that's based off of any evidence, isn't faith. That evidence can be flawed or inconclusive, but it's still a belief based on something that is perceived as evidence. To claim all science is faith based unless proven 100% true is silly. Nothing is proven 100% true, which means it's just as faith based to accept how magnets work than it is to accept that unicorns exist.

Even IF we accepted your definition of faith, it would then mean faith isn't black and white, it's something that's progressive. Some things would be more faith based than others. Of course, this isn't the definition of faith, but if it is - science is clearly less faith based than creationism.
well you just proved it

You have faith in evolution, even though it is not proven.

I have faith in creation,


to me, it takes more faith to be an evolutionists. than it does to be a creationalists (when you look at all the science)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
1. This is nonsense since Darwin didn't theorize the origins of life.

you evidently have not read all of darwins writtings then. for even he said his science was just a theory, and there may be a time which comes where science would prove him wrong.
 
Dec 18, 2013
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1. This is nonsense since Darwin didn't theorize the origins of life.

2. You condensed all the proofs you disagree with as "chaos theories", and brushed them aside with the assumption that chaos theories are automatically wrong.

3. You fail to understand that chaos theory has as much of an influence on macro-evolution as much as it has an influence on micro-evolution.

4. If you wish to disprove evolution, you need to disprove the specific evidences that support it. You can't just say, "it's chaos theory, therefore false."
1. Darwin theorized all life originated from a single organism.

2. Chaos theories refer to the many theories that state life emerged out of chaos. Abiogenesis is an example, the big bang would be another example. Yes I disagree with these theories as most have now been disproven.

3. I understand that even at the micro-level as at the macro-level all creatures are all curiously created with a genetic program that can have a lot of variation, but that such program still has restrictions. Which is a good way to disprove Darwinian evolution. For example a microbe can mutate drug-resistance from breeding and environmental factors, but it will never "Evolve" into another Kind of microbe.

4. One cannot disprove evolution if there are two types of Evolution theories. Merely we must examine which theory of evolution has greater weight. Darwinian style evolution has almost no weight behind it besides unproven or disproven theories (ie: a millions of billions of years old earth, no mutation has ever caused one type of creature to turn into another type of creature, no Kind of animal has ever observably transformed into another Kind, etc.) As where Mendellian Genetic Evolution has a lot of weight behind it (offspring inherit characteristics from their parents, mutations can be bred in or out of an organism, an organism despite mutations or genetic benefits remains of the same Kind of organism that its parents were, there is a high degree of genetic variance within a Kind that can be controleld to a degree by breeding practices and environmental factors, genetic variation can change rapidly depending on breeding, etc.)
 
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Feb 16, 2014
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You have faith in evolution, even though it is not proven.
Even though I didn't contradict myself at any time, as you presumed, you're trying to use something I said as proof when you initially disagreed with what I said. You keep making up new definitions and attacking arbitrary points as a means of avoiding an actual debate.

What you said is pure nonsense. None of it is based on an established definition, you simply change the definition. But, it's not even worth debating because it doesn't actually address the proofs behind evolution or the supposed proofs behind creationism.

I provided links to all the proofs a page or two back. Those are the proofs you have to tackle.
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
The only evolution that is supported by science is what is known as micro-evolution. The evolving of the same species group to another animal from the same species group.

Example: Dogs evolved from the wolf ( same species family )

The only other evolution supported by science is a cold weather animal evolving to live in a warm climate, or vise versa.

There is no physical evidence that supports one species family evolving to another species family. Scientists are still looking for that missing link to prove this theory. ( It has not been found, and I believe it never will )


Now for other area's if you place your belief on dating systems, such as carbon dating and so on. Each one of them have been proven to have flaws, and do that there are a number of different variables that messes up the dating process they can not be stated as being true dating.
( Example: You carbon date 50 items, 10 date correctly but the other 40 are way off. They makes a big grey area that a date could be more wrong than right. )
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Even though I didn't contradict myself at any time, as you presumed, you're trying to use something I said as proof when you initially disagreed with what I said. You keep making up new definitions and attacking arbitrary points as a means of avoiding an actual debate.

What you said is pure nonsense. None of it is based on an established definition, you simply change the definition. But, it's not even worth debating because it doesn't actually address the proofs behind evolution or the supposed proofs behind creationism.

I provided links to all the proofs a page or two back. Those are the proofs you have to tackle.

the links you show does not prove anything, You have a presumption they do.

I have read books which prove creation. WHich prove the catachlismic flood caused most of the fossil beds.. I can go on and on and on.

But you would not believe them, or even give it any credance.. It is obvious your mind is set. so I must ask. why are you here?

most of us have studied evolution. (forced in class) and have studied creationalism, and came to a conclusion.
 
Feb 16, 2014
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you evidently have not read all of darwins writtings then. for even he said his science was just a theory, and there may be a time which comes where science would prove him wrong.
JUST A THEORY?! It's been said over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that a theory in science is not just a "hunch" as many people seem to think.

1. Darwin theorized all life originated from a single organism.
Source.

2. Chaos theories refer to the many theories that state life emerged out of chaos. Abiogenesis is an example, the big bang would be another example. Yes I disagree with these theories as most have now been disproven.
Source.

3. I understand that even at the micro-level as at the macro-level all creatures are all curiously created with a genetic program that can have a lot of variation, but that such program still has restrictions. Which is a good way to disprove Darwinian evolution. For example a microbe can mutate drug-resistance from breeding and environmental factors, but it will never "Evolve" into another Kind of microbe.
That doesn't disprove evolution. In fact, that's the very principle evolution is based on.

Again, what you mentioned is what the theory of evolution is based on.

That's what the theory of evolution is based on.

Based on.

What you said is so nonsensical, it would be like saying, "Throwing an apple in the air and watching it drop to the ground disproved gravity."

4. One cannot disprove evolution if there are two types of Evolution theories. Merely we must examine which theory of evolution has greater weight. Darwinian style evolution has almost no weight behind it besides unproven or disproven theories
You don't even understand what evolution proposes, how could you ever expect to disprove it?

a millions of billions of years old earth
This is the study of geology, not evolution. Geology has the age of the earth pinned at roughly 4.5 billion years old, not millions of billions.

no mutation has ever caused one type of creature to turn into another type of creature
Mutations don't cause animals to change into new species during their life times, or even their offspring to be born an entirely different species. If you believe this is what evolution argues, you don't understand evolution.

Evolution is a gradual process in which mutations become more exaggerated over numerous generations.

no Kind of animal has ever observably transformed into another Kind
You clearly don't understand what evolution is. Evolution is not the transformation of a single animal from one species to another species. Evolution is the gradual changes between offspring which results in speciation.

As where Mendellian Genetic Evolution has a lot of weight behind it
You're arguing as if Mendellian Genetics disproves evolution. It does the EXACT opposite. It proves evolution. Creationists who accept micro-evolution can accept Mendellian genetics because it doesn't contradict micro-evolution.

I'm sorry, GodIsSalvation, you are completely uneducated about what evolution even is. You literally lack the means to disprove it.
 
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Fishbait

Guest
I certainly would not say evolution has been disproved, however many questions are unanswered. I think it is possible to be a Christian, yet not deny some basic tenets of science. I would point to the evangelical Christian and scientist Francis Collins. I am a scientist and scientists are not the type of people to engage in a huge, evil conspiracy.
I'm glad to have a scientest here. I need help with a few questions that may be unanswerable by a scientist or science. Can science explain —“For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them”? Has science ever been able to produce life from nonliving elements? Can science prove the Resurrection of Jesus Christ? Has science ever shown the changing of one 'kind' into another 'kind'?

People who witnessed (1 Corinthians 15:12–21) 'miracles' such as the Resurrection of Jesus Christ knew these were extraordinary events and not “regular” exceptions to the familiar laws of nature or science. The laws of science were created by our wise and logical Creator to govern the physical universe He created. Can it be said that God used 'miracles' that can't be proven by science? Is it fair to say that science works because God created it? We thank God for you that are scientist.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
JUST A THEORY?! It's been said over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that a theory in science is not just a "hunch" as many people seem to think.
thats prety amazing, considering many theories throughout the years have been proven wrong..if theories are based on so much fact. there must be alot of dumb scientists out there.

You are quite plainly closed mind. so again, I ask why are you here? to try to force your belief on us? make fun of us? what is it?
 
Feb 16, 2014
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the links you show does not prove anything, You have a presumption they do.

I have read books which prove creation. WHich prove the catachlismic flood caused most of the fossil beds.. I can go on and on and on.

But you would not believe them, or even give it any credance.. It is obvious your mind is set. so I must ask. why are you here?

most of us have studied evolution. (forced in class) and have studied creationalism, and came to a conclusion.
The problem is, creationists don't know what evolution is. I already explained how GodIsSalvation is ignorant of evolution, and the fact you liked his comment indicates you don't know what evolution is either.

Sure, you may have studied evolution in school. However, it's clear you either don't remember what you were taught or you replaced certain aspects of what evolution is with aspects of what evolution isn't, then called it evolution. For example, GodIsSalvation said evolution suggests one animal changes into another animal. Either he forgot that this isn't what evolution suggests, or he replaced his knowledge of what evolution is with complete nonsense.
 
Feb 16, 2014
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thats prety amazing, considering many theories throughout the years have been proven wrong..if theories are based on so much fact. there must be alot of dumb scientists out there.

You are quite plainly closed mind. so again, I ask why are you here? to try to force your belief on us? make fun of us? what is it?
Asimov - The Relativity of Wrong

"Wrong" is relative.

Anyway, it's clear nobody is actually interested in debating evolution. They're only interested in attacking a strawman they call evolution, but really isn't.

Kenneth brought up dating techniques and how unreliable they are. He's the only one I've talked to today who has presented an actual argument against evolution! I would love to answer his question, but it will no doubt fall on deaf ears. If I correct it, I highly doubt he will acknowledge himself as wrong or present a reliable counter argument. I would predict he would simply repeat himself and try to find another point to try and stump me. And the process will start over again.

Why am I hear? Admittedly, I probably shouldn't be wasting my time debating about evolution with people who clearly refuse to understand it.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
The problem is, creationists don't know what evolution is. I already explained how GodIsSalvation is ignorant of evolution, and the fact you liked his comment indicates you don't know what evolution is either.

Sure, you may have studied evolution in school. However, it's clear you either don't remember what you were taught or you replaced certain aspects of what evolution is with aspects of what evolution isn't, then called it evolution. For example, GodIsSalvation said evolution suggests one animal changes into another animal. Either he forgot that this isn't what evolution suggests, or he replaced his knowledge of what evolution is with complete nonsense.
You should not be so judgmental. And assume we do not know what it is. You know what you do when you assume something do you not?

I think it is quite evident you do not know what creationalism is either..

so again we go to circular reasoning, and again I ask why purpose you have here in a christian chat??
 
Feb 16, 2014
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lol.. What would you say if in say 100 years from now. Most of the science we have today has been proven wrong.

Your cirular reasoning is not helping your case. Only proving your closemindedness.
You clearly didn't even read the link I provided! You didn't even address anything I said. You responded to me as if I said something I didn't. You might as well be blind folded and respond to my arguments without seeing what I typed since you would be just as accurate with said responses!

You should not be so judgmental. And assume we do not know what it is. You know what you do when you assume something do you not?
I didn't assume. There's proof that you either don't understand what evolution is, or you're lying.

I think it is quite evident you do not know what creationalism is either..
I know what creationism is and I understand the arguments it presents. If I'm wrong, correct me with science.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
You clearly didn't even read the link I provided! You didn't even address anything I said. You responded to me as if I said something I didn't. You might as well be blind folded and respond to my arguments without seeing what I typed since you would be just as accurate with said responses!



I didn't assume. There's proof that you either don't understand what evolution is, or you're lying.



I know what creationism is and I understand the arguments it presents. If I'm wrong, correct me with science.
No, I did not read what you responded to. If you can not have the common courtesy to answer my questions, then do not expect me to respond in kind. I just reasked the question you failed to answer the first time, in a different way, and as we see, you skirted the question again.

so what your saying is, If I believe you I am right, If not I am lying.

as for taking my time to give you proof. why bother. It is evident by everything you say (you did not even believe darwin had a theory, even though he claimed his hypotheses was just a theory) you would not even listen.

Again, why are you here? Why are you so afraid to answer?

 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
No it would not fall on deaf ears for I have an open mind to hear anything one might say.

However what you may say, I might have already heard and in most cases been contradicted, or also may not necessarily be true.

Examples: How long science states ice layers in the north take to form. They claim it takes 100's of years for 50 feet of ice to form. However WW2 planes were found 46 years after they disappeared, and they were under 260 feet of ice.

They found fossilized trees in a rock layer were scientist claim they should not be.

Searcy island was formed in the matter of a couple of days, Puricutan volcano formed from a flat field to a over 1.000 foot high mountain in 3 months, and a stalagmite that was found in a cave that had a fully non-decayed bat incased in it.

These and so many more have been brought out to show science is not always right that land masses and other things do not take as long to form as they believe.

Asimov - The Relativity of Wrong

"Wrong" is relative.

Anyway, it's clear nobody is actually interested in debating evolution. They're only interested in attacking a strawman they call evolution, but really isn't.

Kenneth brought up dating techniques and how unreliable they are. He's the only one I've talked to today who has presented an actual argument against evolution! I would love to answer his question, but it will no doubt fall on deaf ears. If I correct it, I highly doubt he will acknowledge himself as wrong or present a reliable counter argument. I would predict he would simply repeat himself and try to find another point to try and stump me. And the process will start over again.

Why am I hear? Admittedly, I probably shouldn't be wasting my time debating about evolution with people who clearly refuse to understand it.
 
Feb 16, 2014
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No it would not fall on deaf ears for I have an open mind to hear anything one might say.

However what you may say, I might have already heard and in most cases been contradicted, or also may not necessarily be true.

Examples: How long science states ice layers in the north take to form. They claim it takes 100's of years for 50 feet of ice to form. However WW2 planes were found 46 years after they disappeared, and they were under 260 feet of ice.

They found fossilized trees in a rock layer were scientist claim they should not be.

Searcy island was formed in the matter of a couple of days, Puricutan volcano formed from a flat field to a over 1.000 foot high mountain in 3 months, and a stalagmite that was found in a cave that had a fully non-decayed bat incased in it.

These and so many more have been brought out to show science is not always right that land masses and other things do not take as long to form as they believe.
Alright. I'm going for the night but I will focus on responding to you in the future.
 
F

Fishbait

Guest
Asimov - The Relativity of Wrong

"Wrong" is relative.

Anyway, it's clear nobody is actually interested in debating evolution. They're only interested in attacking a strawman they call evolution, but really isn't.

Kenneth brought up dating techniques and how unreliable they are. He's the only one I've talked to today who has presented an actual argument against evolution! I would love to answer his question, but it will no doubt fall on deaf ears. If I correct it, I highly doubt he will acknowledge himself as wrong or present a reliable counter argument. I would predict he would simply repeat himself and try to find another point to try and stump me. And the process will start over again.

Why am I hear? Admittedly, I probably shouldn't be wasting my time debating about evolution with people who clearly refuse to understand it.

Here's another "actual argument against evolution!"

Radiocarbon (carbon-14) is a very unstable element that quickly changes into nitrogen. Half the original quantity of carbon-14 will decay back to the stable element nitrogen-14 after only 5,730 years. (This 5,730-year period is called the half-life of radiocarbon) At this decay rate, hardly any carbon-14 atoms will remain after only 57,300 years (or ten half-lives).

So if fossils are really millions of years old, as evolutionary scientists claim, no carbon-14 atoms would be left in them. Indeed, if all the atoms making up the entire earth were radiocarbon, then after only 1 million years absolutely no carbon-14 atoms should be left!

For some years creation scientists have been doing their own investigation of radiocarbon in fossils. Pieces of fossilized wood in Oligocene, Eocene, Cretaceous, Jurassic, Triassic, and Permian rock layers supposedly 32–250 million years old all contain measurable radiocarbon, equivalent to “ages” of 20,700 to 44,700 years. (Creation geologists believe that with careful recalibration, even these extremely “young” time periods would be fewer than 10,000 years.)

Similarly, carefully sampled pieces of coal from ten U.S. coal beds, ranging from Eocene to Pennsylvanian and supposedly 40–320 million years old, all contained similar radiocarbon levels equivalent to “ages” of 48,000 to 50,000 years. Even fossilized ammonite shells found alongside fossilized wood in a Cretaceous layer, supposedly 112–120 million years old, contained measurable radiocarbon equivalent to “ages” of 36,400 to 48,710 years.

Diamonds have been tested and shown to contain radiocarbon equivalent to an “age” of 55,000 years. These results have been confirmed by other investigators. So even though these diamonds are conventionally regarded by evolutionary geologists as up to billions of years old, this radiocarbon has to be intrinsic to them.

This carbon-14 would have been implanted in them when they were formed deep inside the earth, and it could not have come from the earth’s atmosphere. This is not such a problem for creationist scientists, but it is a serious problem for evolutionists.

Science works best when dealing with things that are testable and repeatable. But it's not so good at telling us what happened in the past.

 
Jun 18, 2014
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1. Darwin theorized all life originated from a single organism.

2. Chaos theories refer to the many theories that state life emerged out of chaos. Abiogenesis is an example, the big bang would be another example. Yes I disagree with these theories as most have now been disproven.

3. I understand that even at the micro-level as at the macro-level all creatures are all curiously created with a genetic program that can have a lot of variation, but that such program still has restrictions. Which is a good way to disprove Darwinian evolution. For example a microbe can mutate drug-resistance from breeding and environmental factors, but it will never "Evolve" into another Kind of microbe.

4. One cannot disprove evolution if there are two types of Evolution theories. Merely we must examine which theory of evolution has greater weight. Darwinian style evolution has almost no weight behind it besides unproven or disproven theories (ie: a millions of billions of years old earth, no mutation has ever caused one type of creature to turn into another type of creature, no Kind of animal has ever observably transformed into another Kind, etc.) As where Mendellian Genetic Evolution has a lot of weight behind it (offspring inherit characteristics from their parents, mutations can be bred in or out of an organism, an organism despite mutations or genetic benefits remains of the same Kind of organism that its parents were, there is a high degree of genetic variance within a Kind that can be controleld to a degree by breeding practices and environmental factors, genetic variation can change rapidly depending on breeding, etc.)
1. Life proceeding from a single organism does not explain the origin of that single organism itself. First life isn't Darwin's forté, the progression of established life is.

2. None have been 'disproven', some have been accepted as scientific fact. Even if God created life, my friend, what did he create it from? Was it not chemicals? And what are we made of, if not chemicals? And what is abiogenesis except the theory that life arose from inert chemicals? Abiogenesis theory does not in any way contradict the bible, it simply omits the hand that guided the process. It confirms that the process happened, it simply does not ask 'why'.

3. Microbes can evolve into different microbes. 'Micro-evolution' is not a scientifically valid term because those who use it tend to say things like 'a horse doesn't become a monkey overnight', which in itself is a terrible, incorrect view of what evolution is. Small changes are called mutations, and we see them every day. Those mutations 'add-up', if you like, over millions of years, and the result is something very different from something else. Microbes have been studied over several years in labs, and they do become so different to the original microbe that they may be considered different microbes, however even our definitions of family, genus and species are open to skewed interpretation. I could in fact say that since horse and human are mammals, but a human does not evolve into a horse, that evolution is false. But if I did say that, I'd look very ignorant of evolutionary theory. Organisms tend to evolve into like organisms.

4. Nothing in Mendel's work really disproves Darwinian evolutionary theory, it just explains gaps in Darwin's model. Natural selection, the evolutionary origin, these are Darwinian concepts Mendel did nothing to disprove. Mendel's work was with geneticism and inherited traits, and he discovered dominant genes etc, things that Darwin couldn't study during the time he lived. The ideas of both were similar: we inherit genes vs our characteristics blend, both hypothesized a passing on of traits somehow, it's just that Mendel was able to explain it in more depth than Darwin.
 
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