Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

[jahsoul]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

Romans 11:1 So I ask, God has not rejected his people, has he? Absolutely not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul called himself a jew...

Galatians 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

Often the Scripture makes a general distinction, either jew or gentile, that is done in Rom 9-11...

Romans 10:12, 21 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Thus in Rom 11 Israel and Jew are used synonomously.

No they aren't brother.

Israelite and Jew are not used synonymously in these cases. If you reread Romans 11:1, you would see that he clearly lays out his heritage as being an Israelite from the tribe of Benjamin. He speaks nothing of Jews all throughout that chapter for a reason; God's promises is to the Children of Israel and not the Jews (this is if you truthfully read the words of the Bible). Also, like I stated before, not all Israelites are Jews. (sidenote, people always mention when God said he would bring Israel and Judah back together, and somehow make this about the Jews, while ignoring the fact that those who lived in the Northern Kingdom were not considered Judeans.....ever, but I digress)

To reiterate, Romans 11 speaks directly to the House of Israel. As much as Paul used the word Jew in his writing, it never struck you as odd that when he talks about God's chosen people, he didn't mention the word once but spoke of the Israelites? If they were indeed the same, Paul would have mixed it up in there, but he didn't. Paul didn't used the word Jew and Israel(ite) in the same context because they were not the same.

 

[crossnote]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

No they aren't brother.

Israelite and Jew are not used synonymously in these cases. If you reread Romans 11:1, you would see that he clearly lays out his heritage as being an Israelite from the tribe of Benjamin. He speaks nothing of Jews all throughout that chapter for a reason; God's promises is to the Children of Israel and not the Jews (this is if you truthfully read the words of the Bible). Also, like I stated before, not all Israelites are Jews. (sidenote, people always mention when God said he would bring Israel and Judah back together, and somehow make this about the Jews, while ignoring the fact that those who lived in the Northern Kingdom were not considered Judeans.....ever, but I digress)

To reiterate, Romans 11 speaks directly to the House of Israel. As much as Paul used the word Jew in his writing, it never struck you as odd that when he talks about God's chosen people, he didn't mention the word once but spoke of the Israelites? If they were indeed the same, Paul would have mixed it up in there, but he didn't. Paul didn't used the word Jew and Israel(ite) in the same context because they were not the same.

You must have skipped over this reference I had...

Galatians 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

couple that with...

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
,
Paul identifies himself as both

Beyond the above, one is playing word games.

 

[JaumeJ]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

We must keep in mind the children of Israel are from all the tribes including Judah.

Today, many people make reference to the children of Israel by simply calling them Jews. This is understandable because they have been classified as a religion, Judaism, however previous to this classification, all the children of Israel were considered a nationality.

Today, from what my understanding gleans from the Word of Yahweh, all who believe are Jews, of the faith of Abraham. Now the Jews were not yet conceived with Abraham, but again, it is understood the faith came down through the tribes to the Israel of Israel and Judah, and then to Judah. You all know the rest.

 

[Linda70]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

Who Is A True Jew?

Q174 : Who is a True Jew?

In the Old Testament, the terms "Israel," "Jacob," and "Jew" all seem to clearly be applied to the grandson of Abraham, the son of Isaac: the man Jacob and his physical descendants (Gen. 32:28; 35:10). But in the New Testament, the terms "Israel" and "Jew" are used in passages which are more difficult to understand which some interpret as teaching that faithful Gentiles are described as "Israel" or "true Jews" (e.g., Rom. 2:28-29; 9:4; Gal. 6:16). Can you shed some light on this?

A174 : by Tony Garland

I believe that much of the confusion concerning the use of the term “Israel” in the New Testament — and especially whether it refers to believing Gentiles — can be cleared away by recognizing that although, consistent with its use in the Old Testament, the term always denotes those who are physical descendants of the man Jacob, there are also passages where the writer desires to call attention to a subset from within the physical descendants of Jacob who also share the faith of father Abraham. Here are some principles to consider when reading such passages:

The unbelieving descendants of Jacob are said to be “not Israel” (e.g., Rom. 9:6) and are described by Jesus as those who “say they are Jews, but are not” (Rev. 2:9; 3:9). In other words, true Israel consists of true Jews who, like Paul, are both physical descendants of Jacob and share the faith of Abraham (Luke 3:8). The unbelieving descendants, by rejecting the faith of their physical father Abraham, are said to have a different father — the devil (John 8:39-44; Rev. 2:9; 3:9).

Even though unbelieving descendants of Jacob are sometimes referred to as those who “say they are Jews, but are not, but lie” (Rev. 3:9), there are other passages in which the term “Israel” is clearly applied to the same group of unbelieving Jews (e.g., Rom. 9:6,31; 10:1,21; 11:7,25-29). Thus, what is being stressed is that the physical descendants of Jacob who reject the faith of Abraham are not fulfilling their true intended position of being both physical descendants and believers. The New Testament writers are careful, when necessary, to differentiate the entire nation of physical descendants (which includes non-believers) from the elect remnant which believe.1 While some passages emphasize this truth when making a specific point, we must take care to realize many other passages equally assert that the unbelieving descendants of Jacob are still “Israel” and “Jews.”

Passages which are distinguishing between a true Jew (of faith) and those who are merely physical descendants but lack faith never refer to Gentiles as “Jews” or “Israel.” The distinction which is being made is between believing descendants of Jacob and unbelieving descendants of Jacob — but in both cases descendants of Jacob. This becomes evident when one is careful to consider the context and logic involved in the passages. For example, “They are not all Israel who are of Israel” (Rom. 9:6). Someone who has formal training in logic will recognize this statement as describing a strict superset/subset relationship. Two groups are involved with one group being strictly contained entirely within the other. The superset are those “who are of Israel” — the physical descendants of the man Jacob. The subset from within that group are those who “are not . . . Israel” — the unbelieving physical descendants of the man Jacob who the Scriptures elsewhere indicate are not true Jews (Rom. 2:28-29; Rev. 2:9; 3:9). A pictorial aid known as a Venn diagrama can be helpful here. In this particular case, the diagram will consist of two concentric circles, much like a donut or — more appropriately considering the subject at hand — a bagel! smile The outer circle of the bagel surrounds everyone born in the physical line of descent from Jacob. The inner circle of the bagel surrounds those who have been born in the physical line of descent from Jacob, but who also believe in Jesus as Messiah. The region between the two, in red, represents “not all Israel” — unbelieving Jews — whereas the region in green represents believing Jews who are elsewhere called “the Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16).

Follow the link for the chart which is described as a "bagel".

 

[Linda70]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

I'm going to try to post the diagram/chart of that "bagel" (Venn Diagram):

 

[crossnote]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

Linda, nice diagram but I have one question.
The pink rectangle at the 3 o'clock position, seems to indicate that the outer circle (unbelieving Jews) will be saved. I suppose all are unbelieving before they are saved but in the trib only those Jews who turn in faith will be saved. The line doesn't touch that pink rectangle so I'm not sure what the illustrator had in mind.

 

[jahsoul]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

You must have skipped over this reference I had...

Galatians 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

couple that with...

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
,
Paul identifies himself as both

Beyond the above, one is playing word games.

Paul identified with both because he was both. Paul was an Israelite from the Tribe of Benjamin and before conversion, a Pharisee. And understanding the different between Hebrew/Israelites and Jews is not playing word games. Why would you think that?

 

[Ukorin]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

I'm going to try to post the diagram/chart of that "bagel" (Venn Diagram):

View attachment 85086

The primary falsehood of this diagram is the dividing line between saved Jews and saved Gentiles.
This is a distinction done away with in Christ.

They are not two separate groups inside the Church, but a single group.

I do not have your view of the Rapture and it's purpose, but even in your understanding, the two groups will not be re-separated until this dispensation ends. The physical blessings for the natural born Jews are postponed until the Millenial Kingdom.

 

[Ukorin]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

As part of the Bride of Christ, I am brought into His house. I am no longer what I was, but have become what He is.
Until the Rapture, I am connected to this Gentile body,
but I am no longer a Gentile. I am part of the Body of Christ, which has no dividing lines of race.

 

[Linda70]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

The primary falsehood of this diagram is the dividing line between saved Jews and saved Gentiles.
This is a distinction done away with in Christ.

They are not two separate groups inside the Church, but a single group.

I do not have your view of the Rapture and it's purpose, but even in your understanding, the two groups will not be re-separated until this dispensation ends. The physical blessings for the natural born Jews are postponed until the Millenial Kingdom.

Those distinctions are PHYSICAL distinctions within the body of Christ. Gentiles do not become Jews and Jews do not become Gentiles. Galatians 3:28 also says "there is neither male nor female" Do male and female cease to exist in Christ?

There is nothing wrong with the diagram when you understand what it is trying to explain.

 

[Linda70]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

Linda, nice diagram but I have one question.
The pink rectangle at the 3 o'clock position, seems to indicate that the outer circle (unbelieving Jews) will be saved. I suppose all are unbelieving before they are saved but in the trib only those Jews who turn in faith will be saved. The line doesn't touch that pink rectangle so I'm not sure what the illustrator had in mind.

The line within the outer circle (with the double arrows) is the same color as that pink rectangle. I believe that pink line represents those Jews who come to faith during the Tribulation and the size of that outer circle will shrink as the green inner circle expands. I also believe that only those who come to faith in Christ (Jews and Gentiles) will enter the Millennium.

 

[Ukorin]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

Those distinctions are PHYSICAL distinctions within the body of Christ. Gentiles do not become Jews and Jews do not become Gentiles. Galatians 3:28 also says "there is neither male nor female" Do male and female cease to exist in Christ?

There is nothing wrong with the diagram when you understand what it is trying to explain.

I was wrong to call it a 'falsehood'.

It is a good diagram.
I would want to edit it, so that the the Church is in the same circle together,
but it does serve it's intended purpose.

 

[Elin]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

Well, what I gather from certain NT teaching is this:

I.
"The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed.
The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but
"and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ." (Gal 3:16)

Conclusion: the promises spoken to Abraham are locked up in Christ.

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
(Gal 3:29)

Conclusion: All those in Christ inherit the promises to Abraham.

II.
"He (Abraham, v.9) was looking forward to the city with foundations,
whose architect and builder is God. . .
All these people (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) were still living by faith when they died.
They did not receive the things promised;"
they only saw them from a distance and welcomed them. (Heb 11:10, 13)

Conclusion: Abraham lived in tents, but he looked forward to the more permanent
home in the city with foundations, the "everlasting possession" promised him.

When they died, the patriarchs were still living in faith in the promised "everlasting possession,"
and not in the fulfillment of the promise.
God did not keep the promise he made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, personally,
of an "everlasting possession" (Ge 17:8, 48:4).

III.
"And they admitted they were aliens and strangers on earth.
People who say such things (Ge 23:4, 28:4, 47:9) show that they were looking
for a country of their own.
If they had been thinking of the country they had left (Canaan--Ge 12:6-7),
they would have had opportunity to return.
Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one
Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared
a city for them." (Heb 11:13-16)

Conclusion: The patriarchs did not consider God's promise of an "everlasting
possession" to be Canaan, or they would have returned to it.
That country of their own (Heb 11:4) in contrast to Canaan, the country not their own (Ge 15:13),
that better country for which they were looking, in contrast to Canaan, the country
of three famines (Ge 12:10, 26:1, 41:54),
that country of hope and promise (Heb 11:13), was the heavenly country/land/city, not Canaan.
The promised "everlasting possession" was heavenly land they could not see (Heb 11:1-2,10, 16),
not earthly land they could see (Heb 11:9-10).

1) So all God's promises are locked up in Christ, including the promise of an "everlasting possession."

2) So God did keep his promise to the patriarchs of an "everlasting possession," in the heavenly city
and, therefore, is not ashamed to be called their God because he has kept his promise to them.

3) All God's promises are "Yea" and "Amen" in Christ (2Co 1:20).
All those in Christ participate in all the promises of God.

God has no promises to anyone else.

And I'll also ask the question here: have I missed something?

Often when referring to the land, 'seed' is in the plural.

Genesis 13:15-16 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

The same word is used throughout the OT for seed.
It can mean singular or plural.

The NT interprets the seed to whom the land promise was made as singular, not plural.
That is our authority for its meaning in the land promise.
It was promised to one person, Christ.

 

[Elin]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

The promises of Gal 3:16 to the Jews and Gentiles as the Church thru the Seed (Christ) are spiritual blessings but
do not include land or national blessings which were included to Abraham and his seed (pl). Point being, there are two dealings going on.

The NT interprets the land promise to be given to Christ.

The promise of possession of the land of Canaan to Abraham's descendants was fulfilled under Joshua
(Josh 21:43-45), where challenge to their entrance ceased,
and its full occupation to the borders given in the promise was fulfilled under Solomon
(1Kgs 4:21, 24-25).
The "first dealing" is completed and fulfilled.

All God's promises are "Yea" and "Amen" in Christ.
All God's promises are locked up in Christ.
There are no promises remaining to the people of God outside of Christ.
The "second dealing" is all in Christ.

 

[PennEd]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

The same word is used throughout the OT for seed.
It can mean singular or plural.

The NT interprets the seed to whom the land promise was made as singular, not plural.
That is our authority for its meaning in the land promise.
It was promised to one person, Christ.

Explain why God distinguishes between the Gentiles seeking Christ in Isaiah 11:10 with the regathered, scattered,Jews, in Isaiah 11:11-12?

How can CHRISTIANS be regathered a SECOND time, when they were never gathered a 1st time? In fact, the Christian has been instructed to do the exact opposite, and spread the Gospel to the whole world.

 

[JaumeJ]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

זרעים זרע
Above are the two forms of seed in Hebrew, the first is singular, the second is plural.

Below, translated from the Hebrew text and in Hebrew we see there is a difference between the singular and the plural.

There are plenty of automatic translators online if anyone wishes to investigate for himself.

Gal 3:16
(ASV)
Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

(Darby)
But to Abraham were the promises addressed, and to his seed: he does not say, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed; which is Christ.
　
　
(HNT)
והנה לאברהם נאמרו ההבטחות ולזרעו ולא־אמר ולזרעיך כאלו לרבים אלא כאלו ליחיד ולזרעך והוא המשיח׃

 

[crossnote]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

The same word is used throughout the OT for seed.
It can mean singular or plural.

The NT interprets the seed to whom the land promise was made as singular, not plural.
That is our authority for its meaning in the land promise.
It was promised to one person, Christ.

And where in the NT did Christ promise the land to the Church?

 

[crossnote]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

The NT interprets the land promise to be given to Christ.

The promise of possession of the land of Canaan to Abraham's descendants was fulfilled under Joshua
(Josh 21:43-45), where challenge to their entrance ceased,
and its full occupation to the borders given in the promise was fulfilled under Solomon
(1Kgs 4:21, 24-25).
The "first dealing" is completed and fulfilled.

All God's promises are "Yea" and "Amen" in Christ.
All God's promises are locked up in Christ.
There are no promises remaining to the people of God outside of Christ.
The "second dealing" is all in Christ.

yes, ALL God's promises. He gave some to Israel and some to the Church...true, they are all yea and amen in and thru Him/Christ.

 

[JaumeJ]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

Rom 9:6
Now it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all Israelis truly belong to Israel,
Rom 9:7
and not all of Abraham's descendants are his true descendants. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that descendants will be named for you."
Rom 9:8
That is, it is not merely the children born through natural descent who were regarded as God's children, but it is the children born through the promise who were regarded as descendants.

Reading the above with understanding we find all who believe, that is, have faith, are Israel, believing of the nations and believing of the blood line of Israel, for we are all children of promise.

 

[Elin]

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

1. Israel is a nation and was treated as such...Church is an assembly made up of many nations.

Israel was likewise an assembly (Ac 7:38).

2. Israel started with Abraham...Church at Pentecost

There is only one olive tree of the people of God, composed of all believing Jews and Gentiles (Ro 11:17).
Its roots are the patriarchs (Ro 11:16).

Abraham is father of all who have and do believe (Gal 3:7, 29),
not just the father of his natural descendants.

The one called-out people of God began with Abraham.
God does not have two people, nor two plans for his one people.