Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
P

phil112

Guest
But see, he was going to you for spiritual strength to resist in drinking. Besides, lets say you were at your church or somebody else's house where he did not know alcoholic beverages would be present. What then?
What kind of bible do you have? God said flee from temptation. A "christian" that steps into temptation to test his "spiritual strength" is an ignorant christian.

How about you drop a subject you have been proven wrong on countless times now, and try to counsel on avoiding temptation, avoiding places where that may occur. Try broadcasting that God has a peculiar people, one that doesn't walk lockstep with the world.
Sounds to me like you go to a lot of places a "christian" shouldn't be seen at.
 
J

jkalyna

Guest
What kind of bible do you have? God said flee from temptation. A "christian" that steps into temptation to test his "spiritual strength" is an ignorant christian.

How about you drop a subject you have been proven wrong on countless times now, and try to counsel on avoiding temptation, avoiding places where that may occur. Try broadcasting that God has a peculiar people, one that doesn't walk lockstep with the world.
Sounds to me like you go to a lot of places a "christian" shouldn't be seen at.
*He seems to turn things sour, instead of sweet, Jesus is sweet, and I laugh in the Joy of the Lord, a lot, he didn't like that either. :)*
 
J

jkalyna

Guest
*He seems to turn things sour, instead of sweet, Jesus is sweet, and I laugh in the Joy of the Lord, a lot, he didn't like that either. :)*
*I sense an instigator here, a form of Godliness, but denying the Power of it, which is love, and *not being a judge. LIke a rip current that he starts posting, and trys to get you mad, and out of the Joy of the Lord, and out of sweet fellowship. Enough said.*
 
Aug 28, 2013
955
11
0
Unless the Bible gives us an indication or clue, I have no real way of knowing if the vinegar he drank was alcoholic or not. Besides, even if the vinegar was alcoholic, he was in an extreme amount of pain. Why is this important? Well, Paul told Timothy to drink a little wine for the infirmities of his stomach (Because they did not have water purification back then like we do today). In other words, if the vinegar was alcoholic, it would have been to ease his pain and it was not for him to party or to have a good time. Wine can be used as a medicine to ease pain. Wine should not be used so that we can party or get drunk.
Actually, the Bible does not say Jesus drank the vinegar... only that he tasted it. One can get a taste fo something on one's lips or tongue without actually drinking.

Matter of fact, the Scripture indicates this to be the case. Notice:

Matthew 27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.
 
Aug 28, 2013
955
11
0
The Lord Jesus changed water to oinos. If you care about what the oinos was chemically, look up the word oinos and consider if there was such a thing a pasteurized grape juice which would not naturally ferment. Consider if the term oinos means both what we call grape juice and wine. Consider the drinking customs of the day, whether oinos was generally served straight or watered down.
Pliny the Elder, Cato, Columella; these all recorded in the first century A.D. and earlier, methods of preserving grape wine in an unfermented state.
 
Aug 28, 2013
955
11
0
Definition of wine - 1828 Webster's dictionary:

WINE, n. [Gr.]
1. The fermented juice of grapes; as the wine of the Madeira grape; the wine of Burgundy or Oporto. 2. The juice of certain fruits, prepared with sugar, spirits, &c.; as currant wine; gooseberry wine. 3. Intoxication.
Noah awoke from his wine. Genesis 9. 4. Drinking.
[ex. - They that tarry long at the wine. Proverbs 23.Corn and wine, in Scripture, are put for all kinds of necessaries for subsistence. Psalm.Bread and wine, in the Lords supper, are symbols of the body and blood of Christ.]

Considering the definition may not be the same using our 'modern lingo' why would I want to us a modern dictionary. It seems that I should want to use the Greek definition from a concordance or Lexicon.

but if Jesus changed the water into grape juice why didn't He say grape juice? I accept it for what scripture says - 'wine' - fermented or unfermented - scripture does not specify - so I can not, nor anyone else for that matter, say for a certainty that it was fermented or if it was unfermented. - Not an excuse but fact. I wouldn't even compare this conversation concerning fermented or unfermented wine of the same importance as the Trinity. I mean like what difference does it make??????????
Even earlier... 1726, Nathan Bailey's Etymological Dictionary of Hard Words... Nathan Bailey 1763 - wine- liquor.jpg
 
J

jkalyna

Guest
Actually, the Bible does not say Jesus drank the vinegar... only that he tasted it. One can get a taste fo something on one's lips or tongue without actually drinking.

Matter of fact, the Scripture indicates this to be the case. Notice:

Matthew 27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.
* * Jason where are you getting all these imaginary ideas from that they did not have pure water, wells, were there, remember when Sarah was at the well, they were not polluted as they are now of the underground toxins. YOu said in the thread, wine was from the water, so why would they use polluted water to make something as good at the wedding. YOur just twisting things, for sure, so now you change your story, and say, use wine for the stomach, now your agreeing with the word. They had the best water ever then, not like today, with all the toxins, and factories going.*
 
B

BradC

Guest
Concerning these days in which we live as believers, we have no need, excuse or reason for consuming alcoholic beverages of any kind. Let's be honest, if any believer is going to drink an alcoholic beverage, they do it because they want to and they like the buzz and not because it glorifies God. That might be tough to swallow for some (NPI) but alcohol isn't even needed for medicinal purposes no matter what your doctor tells you. Drinking alcoholic beverages is the acceptable norm and standard for the world and perhaps carnal believers, but not for the Spirit filled believer. Has not God put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel and the church and this present evil world in which we live.
 

Radius

Senior Member
Feb 11, 2013
1,138
180
63
Does proverbs 31:6-7 suggest Christians can drink when they have a heavy heart?

"Give beer to one who is dying, and wine to one whose life is bitter. Let him drink so that he can forget his poverty and remember his trouble no more."
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
What kind of bible do you have? God said flee from temptation. A "christian" that steps into temptation to test his "spiritual strength" is an ignorant christian.
In the scenario, he didn't know the person drank. His shock of discovering him drinking when he was looking for spiritual strength is what could've potentially lead him to fall.

about you drop a subject you have been proven wrong on countless times now, and try to counsel on avoiding temptation, avoiding places where that may occur. Try broadcasting that God has a peculiar people, one that doesn't walk lockstep with the world.
Sounds to me like you go to a lot of places a "christian" shouldn't be seen at.
The Bible says to avoid having the appearance of evil. Although we have a liberty in Christ, we should not abuse that liberty and let our good be evil spoken of.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
1Co_10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

Simple question, Does drinking a beverage that is known to damage our bodies and brain even in small amounts glorifying God?

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

And for those of you who claim that science says that a little wine is healthy, actually do some research instead of sprouting of second had information that you have no idea if its true or not.

Go study up on it. Its the Grapes themselves in the wine that have some health benefits and the benefit is greater having it fresh not fermented. however the bit they don't mention when they say its healthy is the fact that there are unhealthy body damaging effects also with alcoholic wine. Yet no such effect exists with the fresh Grape.

blessings.
 
J

jkalyna

Guest
Concerning these days in which we live as believers, we have no need, excuse or reason for consuming alcoholic beverages of any kind. Let's be honest, if any believer is going to drink an alcoholic beverage, they do it because they want to and they like the buzz and not because it glorifies God. That might be tough to swallow for some (NPI) but alcohol isn't even needed for medicinal purposes no matter what your doctor tells you. Drinking alcoholic beverages is the acceptable norm and standard for the world and perhaps carnal believers, but not for the Spirit filled believer. Has not God put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel and the church and this present evil world in which we live.
*I agree but I don't bash anyone either about it. But I think it better to be drunk in the Spirit, of being full of the Joy of the Lord, it is much better, and you don't have to buy it, and don't get a hangover. I go along with the*scripture*that I posted prior, that says, it's not what goes into a man, that defiles him, but what comes out of him, there's no offense in drinking something, but when someone starts being nasty and offensive, that is not from the Lord. So Salute to the Lord.*
 
L

lisa79

Guest
What good is salt that has lost its flavor? Its sand.... salt is not sand as grape juice is not good wine.

If salt gives me high blood pressure is it then evil if I die from it?
 
B

BradC

Guest
Does proverbs 31:6-7 suggest Christians can drink when they have a heavy heart?

"Give beer to one who is dying, and wine to one whose life is bitter. Let him drink so that he can forget his poverty and remember his trouble no more."
I have no problems with Prov 31:6,7. It is practical and it won't effect anyone's judgment or cause one to stumble and it is isolated. I would do it in a heartbeat if I thought it would be helpful. However, that does not give us permission to consume alcoholic beverages, right?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,749
13,155
113
I have no problems with Prov 31:6,7. It is practical and it won't effect anyone's judgment or cause one to stumble and it is isolated. I would do it in a heartbeat if I thought it would be helpful. However, that does not give us permission to consume alcoholic beverages, right?
we know a better way to lift a heavy heart -- and that is to set it at Jesus' feet :)
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
*I agree but I don't bash anyone either about it. But I think it better to be drunk in the Spirit, of being full of the Joy of the Lord, it is much better, and you don't have to buy it, and don't get a hangover. I go along with the*scripture*that I posted prior, that says, it's not what goes into a man, that defiles him, but what comes out of him, there's no offense in drinking something, but when someone starts being nasty and offensive, that is not from the Lord. So Salute to the Lord.*
Jesus is replying to a specific problem, namely eating without washing hands. then He makes the point that evil comes from within not without. Thus the dirty hands or the food did not make the man evil but rather what was already in the man that came out is evil.

The question then remains to be asked, Is Jesus saying that what you put in the body has no effect on our morality?

Answer: on an over simplistic level it might be thought this. but lets look at the scripture to see if this is true?


Lev 11:43 Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby.
Lev 11:44 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

The bible says that eating unclean things makes the person unclean.

Notice what Daniel said concerning the kings food:

Dan 1:8 But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.


Apparently Daniel understood that you can be defiled by what you eat and drink.

SO the question is how come Jesus said its not what goes in that defiles but what comes out?

Simple, Sin is an inward problem not an outward. The Food or drink itself does not create the Problem/sin. Sin is already there. But what you put in/food/drink. Can weaken us to our problem.

case in point, Do you know of any cases where a normally good person does immoral things after drinking alcohol?

If you don't then you have been living under a rock. Science is very clear what we eat and what we drink can either strengthen or weaken our bodies and anything that does this also strengthens or weakens our minds. This in turn makes us weak to resist our carnal nature.

SO can we glorify God by deliberately drinking or eating things that make it easier to sin? Or Do we glorify God by doing as Daniel did and refusing to defile our temples with what we eat and drink and thus become strong to the point that people could find no evil no sin no error in us as they could not in Daniel?

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

It is clear that you can defile yourself by what you eat and drink, but its not because there is sin in the food as Jesus points out. It is because there is sin in us and if we weaken our selves with what we eat or drink we strengthen sin in us.
 
J

jkalyna

Guest
I have no problems with Prov 31:6,7. It is practical and it won't effect anyone's judgment or cause one to stumble and it is isolated. I would do it in a heartbeat if I thought it would be helpful. However, that does not give us permission to consume alcoholic beverages, right?
*I think then there was a lot of carnality, after the*resurrection*of *our Lord, he tells, us that the carnal mind is death, but the mind of the spirit is life and peace. There must of been a lot of drinking going on, with*David's*700 wives and*Solomon's, I'm sure they didn't knit sweaters all the time. Seems like Noah, Lot if you know any others who drank, also. Things were of the flesh, in the Old Testament, satisfaction of it. AFter Jesus, were to now deny the lust's of it.*
 
B

BradC

Guest
we know a better way to lift a heavy heart -- and that is to set it at Jesus' feet :)
This is what the passage says and I would administer this (in a heartbeat) to those who would be in that predicament and if I thought it would be helpful. I am not advocating or prescribing alcoholic beverages as a practice but the wisdom of this passage is what is important, for it naturally cares for the state of these individuals. This would always be optional and up to the one who is oppressed or near death ...

6 Give strong drink [as medicine] to him who is ready to pass away, and wine to him in bitter distress of heart.
7 Let him drink and forget his poverty and [seriously] remember his wantand misery no more.