When does the rapture occur?

[PlainWord]

The only abomination of desolation from the book of Daniel that specifically deals with the destruction of sanctuary is Daniel 9:
Matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 about the destruction of the temple:
Matthew and mark refer the abomination of desolation to Daniel while Luke did not...instead He gave the understanding:

Here is my response with regards to the study of Daniel 9

The confirmation of the covenant was fulfilled in the first Jewish-Roman war including the Destruction of Jerusalem and the 2nd temple in AD 70 as it was confirmed also when the Babylonian Destroyed the first temple:
Dan 9:12And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.

The covenant is this:
Live by the Law and you will stay in the Land
Rebel and God will send you famine, pestilence, war and scattered you into many nations and make the land DESOLATE. (See Leviticus 26)

The term, "Abomination of Desolation" does not appear in Daniel 9
The word, "Abomination" does not appear in Daniel 9
The word, "Desolation" does not appear in Daniel 9

Therefore, Christ was not talking about Daniel 9 in Matthew 24:15. Similarly, Christ makes no mention of the temple being destroyed in Mat 24:15 or at any point after this. Therefore people fleeing are not fleeing a temple being destroyed, they are fleeing Jerusalem and Judea.

Forget Luke for a second. It is my belief that Christ was pretty much done talking about the temple by Mat 24:3 and Mark 13:2. The comments the disciples made about the temple were made as they were still at the temple. Jesus responds about the temple being destroyed while they were still on the temple mount. If you notice from Mark 13, it is pretty clear.

1 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, "Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!"

2 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

They have now left the Temple Mount and walked about 10-15 minutes to the Mt. of Olives where 4 disciples pick up the conversation which includes what Jesus was discussing to the Pharisees moments before the temple topic concerning the kingdom to come.

...............BREAK.....................

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,

4 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?"

They did not ask "WHAT" but instead asked "WHEN." They also asked WHAT THE SIGNS WOULD BE that happened before "these things." Matthew's account is clearer.

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

They asked 3 questions:

When THESE THINGS will happen?
What will be the sign of Your Coming?
What will be the sign of the End of the AGE?

We do not know if Jesus was still talking about the destruction of the temple by Mat 24:4 or not or if He moved on to the signs of His coming. We do know he had to be done talking about 1st century events by verse 14 because the gospel still hasn't been preached to all the nations. We know verse 15 dealing with the Abomination of Desolation had to be future to Christ and thus not fulfilled during the Maccabeen Revolt era. We know it wasn't fulfilled by Titus during the 67-73 Revolt either as there was no Abomination in the Temple. It was burned down by Roman solders so if the temple was destroyed, there could be no Abomination in it. Christ already told us the temple would be destroyed back in verse 2 and He never mentions its destruction again.

Luke may have spent more time on the temple and AD 70 events in his account.

 

[PlainWord]

My Dear Friend,

The only abomination of desolation from the book of Daniel that specifically deals with the destruction of sanctuary is Daniel 9:

Do you see any mention of the temple being destroyed here or at any point after this verse??? I don't.

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

In fact, do you see the AD 67-73 events as the worst tribulation the world has ever known? I'm not sure the period of AD 67-73 was worse than the original Babylonian conquest which wasn't as brutal as the Assyrians. I don't think either of those compare with the slaughter of some 6 million Jews by Hitler either.

The temple is either still standing in verse 15 or its another Holy Place or its a future temple? If I had to bet I would say it's a future temple because of Paul's comments in 2 Thes 2. Titus clearly was NOT the Man of Sin Paul describes, nor was Titus the one Daniel discusses in Dan 11.

 

[watcher2013]

The term, "Abomination of Desolation" does not appear in Daniel 9
The word, "Abomination" does not appear in Daniel 9
The word, "Desolation" does not appear in Daniel 9

Therefore, Christ was not talking about Daniel 9 in Matthew 24:15. Similarly, Christ makes no mention of the temple being destroyed in Mat 24:15 or at any point after this. Therefore people fleeing are not fleeing a temple being destroyed, they are fleeing Jerusalem and Judea.

Daniel 9:27

New International Version
He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

New Living Translation
The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him."

English Standard Version
And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

New American Standard Bible
"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

King James Bible
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator."

International Standard Version
He will make a binding covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he will suspend both the sacrifice and grain offerings. Destructive people will cause desolation on the pinnacle until it is complete and what has been decreed is poured out on the desolator.'"

NET Bible
He will confirm a covenant with many for one week. But in the middle of that week he will bring sacrifices and offerings to a halt. On the wing of abominations will come one who destroys, until the decreed end is poured out on the one who destroys."


Which version you used, NLT? the majority shows abominations and desolation.

 

[watcher2013]

Therefore, Christ was not talking about Daniel 9 in Matthew 24:15. Similarly, Christ makes no mention of the temple being destroyed in Mat 24:15 or at any point after this. Therefore people fleeing are not fleeing a temple being destroyed, they are fleeing Jerusalem and Judea.

Forget Luke for a second. It is my belief that Christ was pretty much done talking about the temple by Mat 24:3 and Mark 13:2. The comments the disciples made about the temple were made as they were still at the temple. Jesus responds about the temple being destroyed while they were still on the temple mount. If you notice from Mark 13, it is pretty clear.

1 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, "Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!"

2 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

They have now left the Temple Mount and walked about 10-15 minutes to the Mt. of Olives where 4 disciples pick up the conversation which includes what Jesus was discussing to the Pharisees moments before the temple topic concerning the kingdom to come.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


What buildings did his disciples show him?
The buildings of the temple....(that is not a guest even they went out 16 minutes or more.)

 

[watcher2013]

My Dear Friend,



Do you see any mention of the temple being destroyed here or at any point after this verse??? I don't.

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

verse 15 begin with "THEREFORE"....what is the condition of therefore? what was he talking to arrive at the conclusion?

Mat 24:1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Not only the destruction of the temple was discussed before verse 15, it was also reference in the book of Daniel:

Dan 9:26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In fact, do you see the AD 67-73 events as the worst tribulation the world has ever known? I'm not sure the period of AD 67-73 was worse than the original Babylonian conquest which wasn't as brutal as the Assyrians.

Regarding the Babylonian conquest compare to the Assyrian's Here's what the bible has to say:

Eze 5:9

And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.

IT was biblically clear that the Babylonian conquest was exceptional than that of the Assyrians...I will do in thee that which I have not done...

And Daniel talking about the Babylonian conquest:
Dan 9:12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.
Great evil which has not been done under the whole Heaven....


and regarding the AD67-73

Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Great distress ...and wrath....

Daniel describe as great evil...luke describe as great distress and wrath...(a repeat of what that should not be done anymore)

I don't think either of those compare with the slaughter of some 6 million Jews by Hitler either.

You based your tribulation as to number of death...not the tribulation itself.

During AD67-73...great famine befall in the land that even the father eat their sons...
and Those 6 millions Jews are just part of product of the remnants of Ad67-73 war.

The temple is either still standing in verse 15 or its another Holy Place or its a future temple?

If It talks of future temple:
there would be another scattering of the children of Israel
There would be another desolation of the Land
there is another gathering

If I had to bet I would say it's a future temple because of Paul's comments in 2 Thes 2. Titus clearly was NOT the Man of Sin Paul describes, nor was Titus the one Daniel discusses in Dan 11.

Isa 14:13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

question: Did Lucifer manage to exalt his throne above the stars of God? or Did he even be like the most high?

 

[Richie_2uk]

at 5pm tomorrow evening, LOL

 

[Richie_2uk]

It will happen when it happens, what you should be asking, when shall we be prepared for the rapture, NOW! just be ready.

 

[watcher2013]

What buildings did his disciples show him?

The buildings of the temple....(that is not a guess/speculation even they went out 16 minutes or more.)

 

[GaryA]

... you CANNOT locate the Abomination of Desolation in AD 70 because of Luke.

"On the contrary --- the Abomination of Desolation MUST have occurred ~ 70 A.D. because of Luke."

Explain : Luke 21:24

 

[PlainWord]

Daniel 9:27

New International Version
He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

New Living Translation
The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him."

English Standard Version
And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

New American Standard Bible
"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

King James Bible
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator."

International Standard Version
He will make a binding covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he will suspend both the sacrifice and grain offerings. Destructive people will cause desolation on the pinnacle until it is complete and what has been decreed is poured out on the desolator.'"

NET Bible
He will confirm a covenant with many for one week. But in the middle of that week he will bring sacrifices and offerings to a halt. On the wing of abominations will come one who destroys, until the decreed end is poured out on the one who destroys."


Which version you used, NLT? the majority shows abominations and desolation.

I knew you would be quick to jump on this.

Christ says in Mat 24:15:

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place"

The word pairing "Abomination of Desolation" is used as a term, as a noun. This is a singular noun. It is an object or a person. This object or person is where? Standing in the holy place. I use the NKJV and this is how it reads in Dan 9:27:

And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,

We have the plural word, "Abominations" with an "s" and these abominations are "on the wing." Then we have presumably a person "one who makes" desolate. Another way of naming him would be a "desolater."

Abominations (not Abomination) appears and the word Desolate appears in Dan 9:27. However, they are not used together as a term, "Abomination of Desolation" until Chapter 11. Thus my statement was correct.

"The wing of Abominations" - is an elevated place
"The one makes desolate" a desolater - is a person, not an object

So in Daniel 9 you have "the desolater in a lofty place." The word translated wing is often understood as referring to the pinnacle, or highest point, in this case, of the Temple. In this passage wings are attributed to the idol-objects, and to idolatry with its abominations, because that shall be the power which lifts upwards the destroyer and desolater, carries him, and moves with him over the earth to lay waste.”

So if you are saying this happened back in 169-167 BC then Christ could not have been discussing this as a future event ~ 30 AD. NO WAY!! The clue in Dan 9:27 comes next:

...Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

What is determined?
What and when is the consummation?
What (or who) is (are) the desolate?

Daniel 9:24 NKJV

"Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city

Daniel 9:26 NKJV

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Daniel 11:36 NKJV

"Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.

So we see:

1. 70 weeks have been determined
2. Desolations "plural" have been determined
3. Wrath is determined.

What is this "Consummation?"

2 Thessalonians 2:8 NKJV

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


Has the lawless one been cosumed? Has the Lord returned? Did this happen in AD 70????

Now look at this passage from Ezek 43 and ask yourself if this is related and has it happened yet or not??

2 And behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east. His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory. 3 It was like the appearance of the vision which I saw--like the vision which I saw when I came to destroy the city. The visions were like the vision which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face. 4 And the glory of the Lord came into the temple by way of the gate which faces toward the east.

The eastern gate has been sealed since 1541 and Christ has not returned prior to this.

5 The Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple. 6 Then I heard Him speaking to me from the temple, while a man stood beside me. 7 And He said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever.

Has the Lord been dwelling forever in the Temple or is this future?

No more shall the house of Israel defile My holy name,

Has Israel stopped defiling His holy name?

they nor their kings, by their harlotry or with the carcasses of their kings on their high places. 8 When they set their threshold by My threshold, and their doorpost by My doorpost, with a wall between them and Me, they defiled My holy name by the abominations which they committed; therefore I have consumed them in My anger. 9 Now let them put their harlotry and the carcasses of their kings far away from Me, and I will dwell in their midst forever.

 

[PlainWord]

"On the contrary --- the Abomination of Desolation MUST have occurred ~ 70 A.D. because of Luke."

Explain : Luke 21:24

Gary, we've been over this. Luke makes no mention of the Abomination or any desolation. Luke is describing the Temple in AD 70 in Luke 21:24. We agree. However, Christ is NOT discussing the destruction of the Temple in Mat 24:15. Christ invokes Daniel, not LUKE!!

The events in Daniel that deal with the Abomination of Desolation could not have happened before Christ PERIOD. This is because Christ is speaking of the future in Mat 24:15. We agree on this, RIGHT!! So, let's rule out the Pre-Christ Macabeen Revolt where an Abomination did occur.

So the question is, "Have the events Daniel describes in either Daniel 9:27 or in Daniel 11:31-on been fulfilled in AD 70? The answer is NO!!

Titus never placed an ABOMINATION in the Temple and his troops burned it against his wishes.

A week is understood to be 7 years. When Christ entered Jerusalem through the Eastern Gate for Palm Sunday it was exactly 69 weeks or 483 years from when Artaxerxes issued his decree. Several decrees were issued concerning the rebuilding of Jerusalem after the captivity but only one concerned the wall. This decree was issued by Artaxerxes and is one of the best known dates in history. Christ died in either AD 27, 30 or 33 depending on who you listen to. None of those dates tie to 3.5 years or 7 years from Christ death to AD 70. There is only 1 week left or 7 years. Remember, 70 weeks are determined and up until Christ 69 have happened.

24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.

This concerns Daniel's People (Israel) and Jerusalem.
What are Seventy weeks determined for again???

To finish the transgression
To make an end of sins
To make reconciliation for iniquity
To bring in everlasting righteousness
To seal up vision and prophesy
To anoint the most Holy

They haven't even finished sinning yet. They certainly haven't brought in everlasting righteousness. Most of the Jewish world still doesn't even recognize Christ as their Messiah.

 

[CWJ]

When does the rapture occur?


In God's time

 

[CWJ]

The Church which is His Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all, look for His appearing in Glory, when they will appear with Him there.

'When Christ, who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'
(Col 3:4)

Praise God!

 

[CWJ]

The Church which is His Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all, look for His appearing in Glory, when they will appear with Him there.

'When Christ, who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'
(Col 3:4)

Praise God!

 

[PlainWord]

Gary,

I see where you are getting hung up. You look at these passages in Luke 21...

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

and you tie them to these passages in Mat 24...

16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

There are two similarities:

1) Those in Judea are to flee to the mountains
2) Woe to those who are pregnant and to those nursing babies

Ask yourself, could Christ have made the above two warnings for two periods of time? Could He have told those in Judea to flee in AD 70 and in a future event? Was it a difficult time for pregnant and nursing mothers in AD 70. Would you expect it also to be a difficult time for them again if Israel is attacked again? Is it difficult any time for mothers in a war?

Now look at the many differences in the two passages. I'm not going to list them but you can see for yourself.

My view is that by Mat 24:15 Christ was speaking about the future Great Tribulation and that Luke jumps from AD 70 all the way to the signs before Christ returns and skips the Great Tribulation completely in Luke 21.

The key is Daniel. Luke never invokes Daniel but Matthew does.

 

[PlainWord]

Watcher,

Dan 9:26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The above verse is AD 70. Notice it is the PEOPLE of the PRINCE, not the PRINCE who destroys the city and sanctuary. Fact: Titus did not want the Temple destroyed. A Roman soldier threw a torch into the temple which triggered its destruction.

We now have a break in time.

Dan 9:27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

WHO is the HE in the above? It isn't the Prince to Come from verse 26. What covenant did Titus make that he later broke? The war back then was from 67-73 AD. It lasted 6 years, not 7. Verse 27 looks ahead and is further discussed in Chapter 11.

 

[Apostol2013]

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And all of you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that all of you be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 

[Apostol2013]

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[watcher2013]

I knew you would be quick to jump on this.

I just hope that those versions cleared your doubt...about Daniel 9 mentioning abominations/desolations.

Christ says in Mat 24:15:

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place"

The word pairing "Abomination of Desolation" is used as a term, as a noun. This is a singular noun. It is an object or a person. This object or person is where? Standing in the holy place. I use the NKJV and this is how it reads in Dan 9:27

Since you are being very particularly strict in words...let us try this....Did it say "Sit" in the holy place?

The Romans need to STAND in the Holy place inorder to loot it and burned the temple...

Eze 44:9 NKJV Thus says the Lord God: “No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My sanctuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of Israel.

Just to enter the sanctuary is forbidden for foreigner.

And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate

,

We have the plural word, "Abominations" with an "s" and these abominations are "on the wing." Then we have presumably a person "one who makes" desolate. Another way of naming him would be a "desolater."

Abominations (not Abomination) appears and the word Desolate appears in Dan 9:27. However, they are not used together as a term, "Abomination of Desolation" until Chapter 11. Thus my statement was correct.

"The wing of Abominations" - is an elevated place
"The one makes desolate" a desolater - is a person, not an object

So in Daniel 9 you have "the desolater in a lofty place." The word translated wing is often understood as referring to the pinnacle, or highest point, in this case, of the Temple. In this passage wings are attributed to the idol-objects, and to idolatry with its abominations, because that shall be the power which lifts upwards the destroyer and desolater, carries him, and moves with him over the earth to lay waste.”

So if you are saying this happened back in 169-167 BC then Christ could not have been discussing this as a future event ~ 30 AD. NO WAY!! The clue in Dan 9:27 comes next:

...Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

What is determined?
What and when is the consummation?
What (or who) is (are) the desolate?

When we focus on the "person or antichrist" instead of the core issue of the vision we lost its true meaning:

going back at the vision of Daniel 9:24, the core issues are:
1. thy people
2. the city
Seventy weeks[a] are determined For your people and for your holy city, It is not about the anti-Christ.

The first 69 weeks deals with the end of transgression of the people culminating when the messiah was cut off.
the last week deals destruction of the city

Daniel 9:24 NKJV

"Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city

Daniel 9:26 NKJV

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

herein is the destruction of the city and the sanctuary (temple).
at the end of war....NOW IF there is WAR there are the ARMIES....and LUKE DESCRIBE it as WHEN YOU SEE JERUSALEM, COMPASSED WITH ARMIES...
TILL THE END OF WAR DESOLATIONS ARE DETERMINED...
at the End of First Roman Jewish War...The Children of Israel were scattered into many nations.

Daniel 11:36 NKJV

"Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.

here is a link about Daniel 11, have a look at it.

So we see:

1. 70 weeks have been determined
2. Desolations "plural" have been determined
3. Wrath is determined.

What is this "Consummation?"

2 Thessalonians 2:8 NKJV

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


Has the lawless one been cosumed? Has the Lord returned? Did this happen in AD 70????

you are mixing visions and prophecies.

What is this consummation:
remember the vision of Daniel 9:24 it was about the holy city.
PPICTURE THIS..the one week of vs 27 is the breakdown of WAR in verse 26 that led to the destruction of the city and sanctuary.

The consummation deals with the complete/end of war as mentioned in verse 26.

Now look at this passage from Ezek 43 and ask yourself if this is related and has it happened yet or not??

2 And behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east. His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory. 3 It was like the appearance of the vision which I saw--like the vision which I saw when I came to destroy the city. The visions were like the vision which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face. 4 And the glory of the Lord came into the temple by way of the gate which faces toward the east.

The eastern gate has been sealed since 1541 and Christ has not returned prior to this.

5 The Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple. 6 Then I heard Him speaking to me from the temple, while a man stood beside me. 7 And He said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever.

Has the Lord been dwelling forever in the Temple or is this future?

No more shall the house of Israel defile My holy name,

Has Israel stopped defiling His holy name?

they nor their kings, by their harlotry or with the carcasses of their kings on their high places. 8 When they set their threshold by My threshold, and their doorpost by My doorpost, with a wall between them and Me, they defiled My holy name by the abominations which they committed; therefore I have consumed them in My anger. 9 Now let them put their harlotry and the carcasses of their kings far away from Me, and I will dwell in their midst forever.

The question whether there will be a future temple is no question:
The question is who shall build this temple?

Zec_6:12And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

 

[watcher2013]

Watcher,



The above verse is AD 70. Notice it is the PEOPLE of the PRINCE, not the PRINCE who destroys the city and sanctuary. Fact: Titus did not want the Temple destroyed. A Roman soldier threw a torch into the temple which triggered its destruction.

Let us stay on the core issues:
Thy people
thy holy city
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
1. Thy people -This the first duration (the 69 weeks) up until the Messiah was cut off.
and
the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
2. thy holy city - this is the second duration (HOW LONG TILL THE END OF WAR?)
YOUR ANSWER IS IN VERSE 27

We now have a break in time.

70 weeks is not continuous time...its the total duration....

WHO is the HE in the above? It isn't the Prince to Come from verse 26. What covenant did Titus make that he later broke? The war back then was from 67-73 AD. It lasted 6 years, not 7. Verse 27 looks ahead and is further discussed in Chapter 11.

Going back at the core issue which is thy holy City

Verse 27 is the Big picture of the last week dealing with the destruction of the city and the sanctuary.
The covenant is the Confirmation of Leviticus 26 Covenant...
When they disobey God...The land shall be desolate and they shall be scattered...

The he is he who shall destroy the city and the sanctuary...

Consider this:
vs 24 the duration and the summary of the vision:

vs.25 -the picture of the 69 weeks (thy people)
vs.26 - (the pictures of both) thy people and thy city
vs 25- the picture of the 70th week (thy City)