Jesus is God

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama
Here is an example of some of the problems translating John 1. Since I am not an expert in Greek I can not really add to any translation problems.

greek - "A god" or "God" in John 1:1? - Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange
Greek, as with all other languages, has rules that must be followed or communication becomes impossible. No one writes like the Holy Spirit and nowhere in scripture does he ever violate the rules of grammar. The NWT is a perfect example of failing to understand the rules of grammar, not just in John 1:1 but in other places as well. Their insistence upon the insertion of the indefinite article before an anarthrous noun demonstrates clearly that the translators were either incompetent in the language or that they deliberately attempted to manipulate the text in order to support a selected theological position. This is one of the first things we will look at in the text.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama
Since you admittedly are not proficient in the Greek, I shall try to keep this as simple as I can. If you have any question on any point of grammar I shall be happy to address it. If I cannot give you an answer, there are others on this site who are more proficient in Greek than I so I am sure we can find the answer. These arguments that follow do not originate with me. I have them from a professor of New Testament Greek. I have taken the liberty to rework some of the arguments and added some of my own comments and observations. There will be more than one post on this point. I will give it to you in segments so as not to overwhelm you with information. Here is the first part.

εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος
In (the) beginning was God and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

There are a couple things you need to know about Greek syntax in order to understand what John is really saying in this verse. First, Koine Greek normally drops the article in a prepositional phrase. The absence of the article in a prepositional phrase is normal, and doesn't mean anything. It is the INCLUSION of the article in a prepositional phrase that is unusual and thus, means something.

The prepositional phrase "εν αρχη" (in beginning) doesn't contain an article, but is still properly translated "in the beginning." The prepositional phrase "προς τον θεον (with the God)," however, does include the article (τον - the). Since it was proper not to include it, the INCLUSION of the article here means something quite significant. In general, the inclusion of an article when it is not expected means you are being specific about a particular individual who is God. In order to fully understand how that effects this verse, we need to go to the last clause. To understand the implications of the last clause, you need to understand Greek syntax. First, Greek distinguishes the role a noun plays in a sentence by changing the case of the noun. In general, if the noun is the subject, it is in the nominative case. If it is the direct object, it is in the accusative case. However, there is a strange class of verbs that do not take a direct object, they take a predicate. John 1:1 is one such example. This means that you have two nouns that are the same case (nominative), where one is the subject, and one is the predicate. So, if both are in the same case, how do you know which is the subject, and which is the predicate?

Here are the rules: Notice; I said these are rules. You can't ignore them, you can't change them, you can't remove them, and you can't add to them! They are grammatically fixed.
1. If both nouns have the article attached, then the first is the subject, the second is the predicate.
2. If neither noun has the article attached, then the first is the subject, the second is the predicate.
3. If one has an article, but the other does not, then the one with the article is the subject, and the one without the article is the predicate.

So in the phrase "και θεος ην ο λογος", we see that λογος has an article (o) and θεος does not. Thus, o λογος is the subject, while θεος is the predicate. The only was this can be translated into English is "and the Word was God." I shall pause here to give you time to absorb this material and ask any questions you may have.
 

sacraig67

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2014
455
8
0
This is good stuff! No matter what I think you should keep going! But you are right...at least let me soak this all up. Even though this was explained to me before now it is written so I can reread it a couple times. :)
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama
This is good stuff! No matter what I think you should keep going! But you are right...at least let me soak this all up. Even though this was explained to me before now it is written so I can reread it a couple times. :)
I shall give achduke opportunity to respond to the material. If he chooses no to respond I shall post the rest of the material for you.
 

sacraig67

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2014
455
8
0
No worries. I need to, like I said soak this up a bit.
 

sacraig67

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2014
455
8
0
OK I have one question. The fifth Greek word you have translated as "God" but my interlinear translates it as "Word". Was this just a mistype on your post?
 

sacraig67

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2014
455
8
0
It's translated in my interlinear as "in (the)beginning was the Word"
 
Aug 19, 2014
117
3
0
I shall give achduke opportunity to respond to the material. If he chooses no to respond I shall post the rest of the material for you.
Sorry guys,

I have not had time to look at it yet. I will take a look in a while and reply.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama
OK I have one question. The fifth Greek word you have translated as "God" but my interlinear translates it as "Word". Was this just a mistype on your post?
Are you talking about the last clause in the verse - και θεος ην ο λογος - "and the Word was God."
 

sacraig67

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2014
455
8
0
No the first clause "in (the)beginning was the Word". If I could type the Greek It would be easier I guess
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama
No the first clause "in (the)beginning was the Word". If I could type the Greek It would be easier I guess
OOOOOHHHHH! I see what you are talking about. LOL. That is a type-o. I am sorry. That should read "in the beginning was the Word" Thank you for pointing that out. I missed that when I proof read it.
 
Aug 19, 2014
117
3
0
Since you admittedly are not proficient in the Greek, I shall try to keep this as simple as I can. If you have any question on any point of grammar I shall be happy to address it. If I cannot give you an answer, there are others on this site who are more proficient in Greek than I so I am sure we can find the answer. These arguments that follow do not originate with me. I have them from a professor of New Testament Greek. I have taken the liberty to rework some of the arguments and added some of my own comments and observations. There will be more than one post on this point. I will give it to you in segments so as not to overwhelm you with information. Here is the first part.

εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος
In (the) beginning was God and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

There are a couple things you need to know about Greek syntax in order to understand what John is really saying in this verse. First, Koine Greek normally drops the article in a prepositional phrase. The absence of the article in a prepositional phrase is normal, and doesn't mean anything. It is the INCLUSION of the article in a prepositional phrase that is unusual and thus, means something.

The prepositional phrase "εν αρχη" (in beginning) doesn't contain an article, but is still properly translated "in the beginning." The prepositional phrase "προς τον θεον (with the God)," however, does include the article (τον - the). Since it was proper not to include it, the INCLUSION of the article here means something quite significant. In general, the inclusion of an article when it is not expected means you are being specific about a particular individual who is God. In order to fully understand how that effects this verse, we need to go to the last clause. To understand the implications of the last clause, you need to understand Greek syntax. First, Greek distinguishes the role a noun plays in a sentence by changing the case of the noun. In general, if the noun is the subject, it is in the nominative case. If it is the direct object, it is in the accusative case. However, there is a strange class of verbs that do not take a direct object, they take a predicate. John 1:1 is one such example. This means that you have two nouns that are the same case (nominative), where one is the subject, and one is the predicate. So, if both are in the same case, how do you know which is the subject, and which is the predicate?

Here are the rules: Notice; I said these are rules. You can't ignore them, you can't change them, you can't remove them, and you can't add to them! They are grammatically fixed.
1. If both nouns have the article attached, then the first is the subject, the second is the predicate.
2. If neither noun has the article attached, then the first is the subject, the second is the predicate.
3. If one has an article, but the other does not, then the one with the article is the subject, and the one without the article is the predicate.

So in the phrase "και θεος ην ο λογος", we see that λογος has an article (o) and θεος does not. Thus, o λογος is the subject, while θεος is the predicate. The only was this can be translated into English is "and the Word was God." I shall pause here to give you time to absorb this material and ask any questions you may have.
Ok researching this I do not see any problems with the translation. This appears to be as close to we can get as a translation in english. Now is the Logos Christ or did Chist have the Logos in him? Logos is used in other verses as well.

James 1:21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word(logos) planted in you, which can save you.

James 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word(logos), and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.


Now is Jesus planted in us or is the Spirit of God planted in us when we receive the spirit?

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever
John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you

Jesus said he would send the comforter to teach us.

Jeremiah 31:33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama
Ok researching this I do not see any problems with the translation. This appears to be as close to we can get as a translation in English. Now is the Logos Christ or did Christ have the Logos in him? Logos is used in other verses as well
Let us deal with one text at a time. Just follow the rest of the material and if you still need to address this question further I will do an exegetical exorcise on this chapter regarding the Logos.

When translated into English, because λογος is the subject, we have to put it first. English has syntactical rules that must be followed as well. So, this is properly translated "And the word was God."

Now, there are THREE things this could mean (depending on the construction): Now pay attention because it is critical that this be understood.
a. The Word was a LESSER god than the Father who is the τον θεον (the God) in the previous clause.
b. The Word was the father.
c. The Word was fully God, but was NOT the Father.

If John had written the clause: και ο λογος ην θεος, it would mean "the word was A god." That is, the word was a LESSER god than the father. The reason is that since λογος is the subject, and is first, there is no grammatical reason to leave the article OFF of θεος, thus the absence of the article means something (since even if we gave it the article, it would STILL be the predicate). Therefore, the absence of the article would mean "A" god. In other words, since the inclusion of the article would not change the grammatical function of θεος, the exclusion of the article must therefore change the MEANING of θεος.

The absence of the article in a position where the inclusion of the article would NOT change the word's grammatical function would tell us there is a difference in specificity: the λογος is not the same individual as the Father.

Further, if it does not have an article, the position of θεος at the end of the sentence would tell us there is a difference in emphasis (θεος is being “de-emphasized”): λογος is less of a god than the Father. Thus, "και ο λογος ην θεος" could ONLY mean "the Word was a god." BUT, John did NOT use this construction. If John had written the clause: και ο λογος ην ο θεος, it would mean "the word was THE God." That is, the word was exactly the same person as the Father. Meaning there is only ONE person, not two, and there would then be no trinity. The Father and the Son would then be nothing more than manifestations of the SAME GOD. They would not be separate individuals. There is one God who simply "appears" at times in different forms. This would then lend support to the monotheist argument. The inclusion of the article with θεος would make it specific: the λογος was exactly the same individual as the Father (the exact same θεος just mentioned in the previous clause). Since both nouns have the article, θεος is grammatically LOCKED into occurring AFTER λογος. If it moved in front of λογος, it would change its grammatical function, and become the subject. Thus, in this construction, the position of θεος would not mean anything. It MUST appear there. Thus, the clause "και ο λογος ην ο θεος" can only mean "Jesus was THE God (the exact same individual as the Father)." BUT, John did NOT use this construction.

By writing it: και θεος ην ο λογος, John does TWO critical and deliberate things. First, he leaves the article OFF of θεος, thus indicating that word is NOT the same individual as the father. Second, he places θεος to the front of the clause, placing extra emphasis on that word. By doing that, he makes it clear by the increase in emphasis, that the absence of the article does NOT mean "lesser." Since the absence of the article does not mean "lesser god," it leaves us only one choice as to what it can mean: Not exactly the same individual as the "τον θεον" of the second clause, but every bit as much GOD as the "τον θεον" of the second clause. Thus, the absence of the article tells us that the θεος of the third clause is NOT the same individual as the τον θεον of the second clause. The position tells us that the absence of the article does NOT mean "lesser." By placing θεος in a position of emphasis, John is doing the equivalent of bolding it, underlining it, and adding an exclamation point: The Word was God!
 
Aug 19, 2014
117
3
0
More scripture with logos.

Luke 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word(logos) of God and obey it.

Mark 7:13 Thus you nullify the word(logos) of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word(logos) of God.

Hebrew 4:12 For the word(logos) of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama
More scripture with logos.

Luke 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word(logos) of God and obey it.

Mark 7:13 Thus you nullify the word(logos) of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word(logos) of God.

Hebrew 4:12 For the word(logos) of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
All of this is irrelevant for now. Focus on the study at hand. We can look at all of this latter.
 
Aug 19, 2014
117
3
0
[......] John is doing the equivalent of bolding it, underlining it, and adding an exclamation point: The Word was God!
You have a good understanding of Greek so we will have to use your understanding when it comes to translating John 1.

Now that we have determined that the Word was God. Is the Word in(Dwells) Jesus or is Jesus the Word? In other texts where logos is used it sounds like the holy spirit like in Luke 11:28 and John 14:16-17.

In Luke 11:28 Luke 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word(logos) of God and obey it.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you
 
Aug 19, 2014
117
3
0
All of this is irrelevant for now. Focus on the study at hand. We can look at all of this latter.
ok. Where do you want to study next? I am having a hard time studying the Greek. I have to rely on the translations and strongs or rely on your understanding. BTW thank you for taking the time to post the Greek understanding.