We are not through studying this yet and this is not my understanding, this is just a simple grammatical exorcise that any serious student of the Greek can verify. If this is too deep for you I can try to bring it down a notch but, what you are doing is what a lot of people attempt to do. They chase all over scripture trying to piece mail an idea together rather that simply trying to understand one text at a time. There is one more post left on this argument if you are interested. I promise we will look at other texts but learn to give your attention to one text at a time.
Jesus is God
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Now we see why John included the article in the prepositional phrase "προς τον θεον." He was being very specific. The Word is WITH a SPECIFIC being called "The God" (τον θεον). In the next clause, he then lets us know that the Word was completely EQUAL with "The God" in divinity, but through the careful use of the articles, has clued us in that the Word is not the same individual as "The God."
One of the objections raised to the divinity of Jesus is that λογος means “the mind, wisdom, intelligence, or plan of God” and nothing more. It is argued that λογος is NOT an individual, it is just a way of describing the “mind” or “wisdom” of God (this was a common philosophy of the Gnostics). Thus, the λογος was not an individual, but the wisdom of God. So Jesus was not a “God” made flesh, but the wisdom of God or the mind of God, made flesh. That means He did not exist prior to His birth (as God). Prior to his physical birth, He was merely an idea, or a plan in the MIND of God and that IDEA became a man.
John makes this interpretation completely absurd with the statement “ο λογος ην προς τον θεον” (the Word was WITH God). Further, προς emphasizes AGREEMENT WITH, not necessarily location or proximity. You see, if the λογος is JUST the mind, intelligence, wisdom or plan of God, it can’t be anything OTHER than with Him. If the λογος is the intelligence of God, then by definition it HAS to be with Him, which makes “the Word was WITH God” a completely pointless statement.
It is the equivalent of saying, “My brain is with me today.” Since, if you are alive, they can’t be anything other than with you, not only have you given no information, you have implied something that is not true. By making that statement, you are implying that there might be a situation in which it could be somewhere else other than with you. Yet, John makes it crystal clear that his choice of words was not an accident. He places extra emphasis on the fact that the λογος was WITH God by restating it in the second verse: “And this one was in the beginning WITH God.” ουτος references the subject of the previous sentence, which was λογος in all three clauses. Thus, John is making a statement that can ONLY be interpreted as meaning the λογος is an individual who is somehow the ultimate summation of the wisdom of God. Not only is this individual with God, He is also God Himself. That means that Jesus DID exist prior to His birth (as He reveals Himself in John 17:5) “Father, glorify me with yourself, with the glory I had with you before the world was.”.
John's construction is so carefully crafted that it is often called the most concise theological statement ever made. With these seventeen words of verse one, he wrote a sentence that took me all of this space to explain. No one writes like the Holy Spirit. John's deliberate use of grammar leaves us only ONE possible conclusion: Jesus is completely and totally God in every way that the Father is God, but Jesus is NOT the same individual as the Father.
One of the objections raised to the divinity of Jesus is that λογος means “the mind, wisdom, intelligence, or plan of God” and nothing more. It is argued that λογος is NOT an individual, it is just a way of describing the “mind” or “wisdom” of God (this was a common philosophy of the Gnostics). Thus, the λογος was not an individual, but the wisdom of God. So Jesus was not a “God” made flesh, but the wisdom of God or the mind of God, made flesh. That means He did not exist prior to His birth (as God). Prior to his physical birth, He was merely an idea, or a plan in the MIND of God and that IDEA became a man.
John makes this interpretation completely absurd with the statement “ο λογος ην προς τον θεον” (the Word was WITH God). Further, προς emphasizes AGREEMENT WITH, not necessarily location or proximity. You see, if the λογος is JUST the mind, intelligence, wisdom or plan of God, it can’t be anything OTHER than with Him. If the λογος is the intelligence of God, then by definition it HAS to be with Him, which makes “the Word was WITH God” a completely pointless statement.
It is the equivalent of saying, “My brain is with me today.” Since, if you are alive, they can’t be anything other than with you, not only have you given no information, you have implied something that is not true. By making that statement, you are implying that there might be a situation in which it could be somewhere else other than with you. Yet, John makes it crystal clear that his choice of words was not an accident. He places extra emphasis on the fact that the λογος was WITH God by restating it in the second verse: “And this one was in the beginning WITH God.” ουτος references the subject of the previous sentence, which was λογος in all three clauses. Thus, John is making a statement that can ONLY be interpreted as meaning the λογος is an individual who is somehow the ultimate summation of the wisdom of God. Not only is this individual with God, He is also God Himself. That means that Jesus DID exist prior to His birth (as He reveals Himself in John 17:5) “Father, glorify me with yourself, with the glory I had with you before the world was.”.
John's construction is so carefully crafted that it is often called the most concise theological statement ever made. With these seventeen words of verse one, he wrote a sentence that took me all of this space to explain. No one writes like the Holy Spirit. John's deliberate use of grammar leaves us only ONE possible conclusion: Jesus is completely and totally God in every way that the Father is God, but Jesus is NOT the same individual as the Father.
Re: Father and Son
Jesus Christ came to Earth to declare the Father (John 1:18)
Jesus Christ said He came specifically to “reveal” the Father(Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22).
“I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him” (John 8:26).
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.John 12:49
"My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28).
the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me" (John 14:24).
Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world
1 John 3:8 (KJV)
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy of the works devil.
1 John 1:2 (KJV)
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness,
and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
"Behold, I send My messenger, and he will prepare the way before Me.
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren, and say unto them,
I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me,
to give every man according as his work shall be.
Jesus Christ came to Earth to declare the Father (John 1:18)
Jesus Christ said He came specifically to “reveal” the Father(Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22).
“I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him” (John 8:26).
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.John 12:49
"My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28).
the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me" (John 14:24).
Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world
1 John 3:8 (KJV)
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy of the works devil.
1 John 1:2 (KJV)
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness,
and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
"Behold, I send My messenger, and he will prepare the way before Me.
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren, and say unto them,
I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me,
to give every man according as his work shall be.
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From reading about Gnosticism it appears to be some kind of religious ideas to reaching enlightment or divinity.
From Wikipedia:
Jesus is identified by some Gnostics as an embodiment of the supreme being who became incarnate to bring gnōsis to the earth,[SUP][10][/SUP] while others adamantly denied that the supreme being came in the flesh, claiming Jesus to be merely a human who attained divinity through gnosis and taught his disciples to do the same.
I do not believe this myself. I believe that he is the only begotten son of God who died for our sins. He is sinless and also the temple of God and God dwells in him. Also you have "God made flesh", Do you mean God was manifest in the flesh?
From Wikipedia:
Jesus is identified by some Gnostics as an embodiment of the supreme being who became incarnate to bring gnōsis to the earth,[SUP][10][/SUP] while others adamantly denied that the supreme being came in the flesh, claiming Jesus to be merely a human who attained divinity through gnosis and taught his disciples to do the same.
I do not believe this myself. I believe that he is the only begotten son of God who died for our sins. He is sinless and also the temple of God and God dwells in him. Also you have "God made flesh", Do you mean God was manifest in the flesh?
H
We are the indirect creation of God through our parents, back to Adam and Eve, who were the direct creation of God. God created the man Jesus, thus Jesus had a beginning as a man, created by the Holy Spirit with no earthly father. Thus Jesus was born with out a sinful nature and He never sinned. The person of the eternal son of God dwelt in the womb of the virgin Mary. and experienced birth as a man child. The two persons and natures of God and man are forever united in Jesus. As we look upon Jesus ,someday, we will see the invisible God and a visible man. Jesus is man and the "only begotten Son of God" full of grace,truth and glory. We will only be a perfect man like Jesus, we will never be like the only eternally begotten Son of God the Father. Love Hoffco
Hi Sacraig67,
I am not sure there is more I can contribute to this thread at this time. I hope you understand now some of the views others may have about this subject. I am not a trinitarian or a oneness believer where God is manifest in different forms like water is ice, liquid,solid. I think it would be better to move on to some other subjects like who is the Holy Spirit or What are some of God's plan for us in the end times. This has been a pretty good thread.
Here is a summary of some of my beliefs.
Is Jesus God? I would say Yes. His flesh is not God but the spirit of God resides (Dwells) inside him. Has he always been this way or was it after the Holy Spirit descended upon him I do not know at this time. I do know they are now one and inseperable. Jesus is the temple of God and God will never leave Jesus. When Jesus speaks it is the will of the Father speaking and not himself.
Did the Spirit of Jesus(His own Will) always exist? I do not know at this time. I know that he was the plan all along for God since the begining of time. He is never going away.
My testimony: I did not grow up in a formal church and never have officially attended a formal church. I was given a children's bible by my mother at a very young age and I picked it up on my own when I was just learning to read. I was a scared of the book a little at first. The book hand pictures and images of hands of wind and flaming fire which scared me as a kid. Still I read the book and it came alive like no other book I had read. The Words spoke to me like they were alive and were directed at me. Later as a teenager I did pick up a regular KJV bible and read it and have been learning more about God, Israel and his plan for us ever since. I have had many dreams throughout my life that I will not go into here but I feel they have been prophetic in nature.
The one thing I think with my own upbringing about the church I did not develop many of the biases a formal church impresses on you. I did not even know about Trinity or Oneness until after Highschool. To me growing up there was God and his Son and God spoke through his Son along with other prophets but his Son was different and a much higher authority.
Going Forward: I think Jesus is the temple of God as we are also. Jesus is the head of the body. We should pay attention to the feasts and appointed times of God and disregard the feasts of Satan like Christmas, Easter, Haloween and any feast that is not from God. Sukkot is a prime example of a feast we should follow. Not because following God's feasts will make us righteous but because of our faith and salvation we want to obey God. I know I want to obey God. Sukkot(Tabernacles) is the very feast that represents God tabernacling with us as his temple.
NIV Revelation 21:22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
KJV Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
NIV 1 Corinthians 3:16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?
KJV 1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Shalom,
I am not sure there is more I can contribute to this thread at this time. I hope you understand now some of the views others may have about this subject. I am not a trinitarian or a oneness believer where God is manifest in different forms like water is ice, liquid,solid. I think it would be better to move on to some other subjects like who is the Holy Spirit or What are some of God's plan for us in the end times. This has been a pretty good thread.
Here is a summary of some of my beliefs.
Is Jesus God? I would say Yes. His flesh is not God but the spirit of God resides (Dwells) inside him. Has he always been this way or was it after the Holy Spirit descended upon him I do not know at this time. I do know they are now one and inseperable. Jesus is the temple of God and God will never leave Jesus. When Jesus speaks it is the will of the Father speaking and not himself.
Did the Spirit of Jesus(His own Will) always exist? I do not know at this time. I know that he was the plan all along for God since the begining of time. He is never going away.
My testimony: I did not grow up in a formal church and never have officially attended a formal church. I was given a children's bible by my mother at a very young age and I picked it up on my own when I was just learning to read. I was a scared of the book a little at first. The book hand pictures and images of hands of wind and flaming fire which scared me as a kid. Still I read the book and it came alive like no other book I had read. The Words spoke to me like they were alive and were directed at me. Later as a teenager I did pick up a regular KJV bible and read it and have been learning more about God, Israel and his plan for us ever since. I have had many dreams throughout my life that I will not go into here but I feel they have been prophetic in nature.
The one thing I think with my own upbringing about the church I did not develop many of the biases a formal church impresses on you. I did not even know about Trinity or Oneness until after Highschool. To me growing up there was God and his Son and God spoke through his Son along with other prophets but his Son was different and a much higher authority.
Going Forward: I think Jesus is the temple of God as we are also. Jesus is the head of the body. We should pay attention to the feasts and appointed times of God and disregard the feasts of Satan like Christmas, Easter, Haloween and any feast that is not from God. Sukkot is a prime example of a feast we should follow. Not because following God's feasts will make us righteous but because of our faith and salvation we want to obey God. I know I want to obey God. Sukkot(Tabernacles) is the very feast that represents God tabernacling with us as his temple.
NIV Revelation 21:22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
KJV Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
NIV 1 Corinthians 3:16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?
KJV 1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Shalom,
Jesus had the fullness of God dwelling in Him. That is the same hope He has for us.
Ephesians 3:19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
Jesus had a divine nature. That's the same hope for us.
2 Peter 1:4 Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants of the divine nature.
Jesus is one with the Father. He has the same hope for us.
John 17:22-23 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
John 17:11 And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one.
It's all about bearing the family resemblance. This is what living the Kingdom of God is all about.
Ephesians 3:19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
Jesus had a divine nature. That's the same hope for us.
2 Peter 1:4 Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants of the divine nature.
Jesus is one with the Father. He has the same hope for us.
John 17:22-23 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
John 17:11 And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one.
It's all about bearing the family resemblance. This is what living the Kingdom of God is all about.
achduke, I think you are at least an honest man. I also think you have a lot of question for which you have not yet found answers. Some of you ideas about Jesus are the result of not having a solid understanding about how scripture represents the nature of God. I would like to help you with this if you are serious about finding solid biblical answers on this matter and if you feel you can trust me to treat scripture fairly.
I have no problem reading anything on this thread in the future. I just do not think my area of expertise will contribute anymore to this thread. If someone goes back and reads this thread they will see my views. I have been researching all differnet views for over 20+ years. If my views change I will correct them on my threads. For now if you add anymore about Greek and the scriptures I will for sure read it and may even comment.
Shalom,
Shalom,