It is possible for a Christian to lose their salvation.
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Well my salvation did not come from the bible or faith. My salvation came from this- Jesus and what he did, Gods great love and mercy and simply because I beeged him to come into my heart. I do however believe in every part of the bible as it is a very precious mysterious and holy book filled with beautiful treasures that we take for granted every day, they are the scriptures and that fill the bible
It was because you acted on your belief that you were born again and because God fulfilled His promise. You believed God would be faithful to do what He said, as He always is without fail, and He was and saved you.
I'm with you. We are told that demons believe, and even have the kind of faith many people talk of---they believe in everything God says, they just act against it instead of for it.
To some who called on the Lord, the Lord replied: Mat 25:12 "But he replied, 'I assure you: I do not know you!'
From this we know salvation takes something more than faith in the truth of scripture, and it is possible to know about the Lord and to have the Lord not know us. We must search scripture to find out exactly what is required for salvation.
To some who called on the Lord, the Lord replied: Mat 25:12 "But he replied, 'I assure you: I do not know you!'
From this we know salvation takes something more than faith in the truth of scripture, and it is possible to know about the Lord and to have the Lord not know us. We must search scripture to find out exactly what is required for salvation.
well then don't , you label it as keeping salvation the word calls it abiding in Him, overcoming, enduring. The scripture teaches the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin....you believe God can save you but he cannot give you power over sin, he cannot give you power to live right. You believe God placed His HS in you but you are still a slave to sin. You believe you are a new creature but you also believe you are the same old man...Jesus says arise and walk you keep holding on to the crutches...He says do not sin you say but it is in my nature....Tell me what do you buy? What do you really believe? What has your God done for you? What has your God saved you from?
[h=1]If you can lose your salvation, then what must you do to keep it?[/h]You are saying works are solely required to keep the salvation Jesus died to give you so tell me, how many good works must I do? What is the cut off point where I can know I truly lived a good enough life post my salvation date to be admitted to heaven? I'd like to know your parameters and how you are reassured right up to the moment you die? What fear people must live in who believe you must work to keep your salvation.
Where's your reassurance?
Where's your reassurance?
You are saying that I am saying it and I said no such thing....this is my reassurance...
John 15 King James Version (KJV)
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
John 15 King James Version (KJV)
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
For me, this is dangerously close to works' righteousness. Also, this "maintaining salvation" teaching is the same as that held by the Roman Catholic Church, the Mormon church, and the Jehovah's Witnesses churches (among others). Of course, I realize that just because false groups teach the same thing, doesn't mean the teaching is wrong. Still, I can't help wondering if something is amiss. And, there is another problem.
[h=2]James 2:10 and Gal. 3:10[/h]
A further concern I have is that if anyone were to try to maintain his salvation by being faithful/good, is he then required to keep the whole law?
I believe that those who seek to remain faithful and obedient to God in order to stay saved would say they are not trying to maintain their salvation by their works, their faithfulness, their obedience, etc. At least I hope not. But, isn't a law an instruction given by God that has a punishment for disobeying it? God commands everyone everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). In Exodus 20, God commands that we believe in him. Can it be said that the command to believe and repent are laws since disobeying them has penalties? Do you see the problem?
[h=2]A confession[/h] I'm not a very good Christian. I know my treacherous and sinful heart. If my salvation were dependent in any way upon my faithfulness or obedience, then I'm in trouble. I would never claim that I was able to remain faithful enough or do enough good to maintain my position with God. I just can't go there. Instead, I rely totally on him to keep me--not me to keep myself.
All that I am and all I need is found in the work of Christ. Even my ability to believe is God's work (John 6:28-29). My believing has been granted to me by God (Phil. 1:29), and I believe because I was appointed to eternal life (Acts 13:48). Should I then stand before God and man and say that I am keeping my position with God by my own faithfulness? This is something I can never claim.
That is why I ask people who believe they can lose their salvation and are seeking to maintain it by being faithful, "Are you taking credit for your believing?" If they say yes, they are boasting. If they say no, then I ask them what makes them think that God [who granted that they believe (Phil. 1:29), appointed them to eternal life (Acts 13:48), chose them before the foundation of the world for salvation (Eph. 1:4-5; 2 Thess. 2:13), predestined them (Rom. 8:29-30), and said that he will lose none (John 6:39)] will let them slip through his fingers when he said it was his will that those who believe would not be lost and would be raised on the last day (John 6:37-40)?
[h=2]James 2:10 and Gal. 3:10[/h]
- James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all."
- Gal. 3:10, "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.'”
A further concern I have is that if anyone were to try to maintain his salvation by being faithful/good, is he then required to keep the whole law?
I believe that those who seek to remain faithful and obedient to God in order to stay saved would say they are not trying to maintain their salvation by their works, their faithfulness, their obedience, etc. At least I hope not. But, isn't a law an instruction given by God that has a punishment for disobeying it? God commands everyone everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). In Exodus 20, God commands that we believe in him. Can it be said that the command to believe and repent are laws since disobeying them has penalties? Do you see the problem?
[h=2]A confession[/h] I'm not a very good Christian. I know my treacherous and sinful heart. If my salvation were dependent in any way upon my faithfulness or obedience, then I'm in trouble. I would never claim that I was able to remain faithful enough or do enough good to maintain my position with God. I just can't go there. Instead, I rely totally on him to keep me--not me to keep myself.
All that I am and all I need is found in the work of Christ. Even my ability to believe is God's work (John 6:28-29). My believing has been granted to me by God (Phil. 1:29), and I believe because I was appointed to eternal life (Acts 13:48). Should I then stand before God and man and say that I am keeping my position with God by my own faithfulness? This is something I can never claim.
That is why I ask people who believe they can lose their salvation and are seeking to maintain it by being faithful, "Are you taking credit for your believing?" If they say yes, they are boasting. If they say no, then I ask them what makes them think that God [who granted that they believe (Phil. 1:29), appointed them to eternal life (Acts 13:48), chose them before the foundation of the world for salvation (Eph. 1:4-5; 2 Thess. 2:13), predestined them (Rom. 8:29-30), and said that he will lose none (John 6:39)] will let them slip through his fingers when he said it was his will that those who believe would not be lost and would be raised on the last day (John 6:37-40)?
One of the most used passages to show Christians can lose their salvation is 2 Peter 2:20-22. To understand what Peter is talking about we have to begin with vs.17. He is talking about teachers who know the truth, know the Word, and preach the Word but do not accept it themselves. God is saying that it's better that they have never known it than know it and refuse to accept it.
They fall back into sin because they themselves have never accepted the Word of truth. So since they have known the truth and refused it would have been better if they never knew the Truth in the first place.
They fall back into sin because they themselves have never accepted the Word of truth. So since they have known the truth and refused it would have been better if they never knew the Truth in the first place.
K
This would could not be false teachers.
If it were false teachers that were never saved because they do not truthfully believe the word themselves, then they could not have escaped the defilements of the world.
Only through repentance and believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior can you be forgiven of your sins and the help of the Holy Spirit to guide you away from them( defilements of the world ).
Then it goes to say that they get entangled in willful sin again ( defilements of the world ). If they were not entangled in them that means for a time they were walking properly, but then got caught back up in them again.
Just like the parable Jesus gave about the sower and seed, the group that hears and accepts the word and follows it for a time but then because of a trial or tribulation in their life they turn back to willful sin, or walk in nonbelief or denial of the truth.
If it were false teachers that were never saved because they do not truthfully believe the word themselves, then they could not have escaped the defilements of the world.
Only through repentance and believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior can you be forgiven of your sins and the help of the Holy Spirit to guide you away from them( defilements of the world ).
Then it goes to say that they get entangled in willful sin again ( defilements of the world ). If they were not entangled in them that means for a time they were walking properly, but then got caught back up in them again.
Just like the parable Jesus gave about the sower and seed, the group that hears and accepts the word and follows it for a time but then because of a trial or tribulation in their life they turn back to willful sin, or walk in nonbelief or denial of the truth.
2 Peter 2:17 "...Wells without water.." false teachers.
2 Peter 2:20 the word used here is "knowledge" or "knowing" meaning they escaped the defilement of the world by "knowing". They had the knowledge to stay away from the defilements of the world but they didn't repent to God of their sins. They didn't "go all the way" so to speak. It is possible for someone to stay away from the defilements of the world by living what we call a "good" life but if the acceptance of Jesus as our Lord and Savior is not there then it's all in vain.
2 Peter 2:20 the word used here is "knowledge" or "knowing" meaning they escaped the defilement of the world by "knowing". They had the knowledge to stay away from the defilements of the world but they didn't repent to God of their sins. They didn't "go all the way" so to speak. It is possible for someone to stay away from the defilements of the world by living what we call a "good" life but if the acceptance of Jesus as our Lord and Savior is not there then it's all in vain.
K
But once again they have to believe in Jesus and His saving grace to escape the defilements of the world, else they would have never truly escaped like the scripture says they did.
Nowhere in the parable does it say they never accepted, it says for one group they did accept but do to trials or tribulations in their life it caused them to fall away and return to the ways of the world.
Their root was not strong, but they still believed in Jesus and His grace for a time.
Jesus says not all who call Him Lord, Lord will be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven. Mere belief, falling away to false doctrines, falling away by returning back to the ways of world do to trials, tribulations, and being deceived are all mentioned in the bible as things that happen to some believers. These do not get eternal life.
Matthew 25 also speaking of the separation of the sheep from the goats is another example of mere belief. The sheep are those who hear the word, and follow it. The goats are those who hear the word, but do not do what is asked of them and go on believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior but do not follow His teachings on how to walk.
This posts asks if it is possible for a Christian to lose their salvation, and we have found scriptures that says yes, it is possible. Scripture says that some will call on the Lord, and the Lord will say He doesn't know you.
Some posters have said that it is through faith in the Lord, not by any works we do, yet scripture tells us that demons have absolute belief in the Lord, and they certainly are not saved. So faith has to have more than belief, and scripture says so. "Faith without works is dead".
There is a great outcry against a works salvation, saying that works will not save us. Scripture backs that up, for we are told it is only through grace and faith. We know that if man was given the power to decide if God will give them eternal life with anything of himself, man would have the power of God. Only God has that power. So, most posters decide that our work isn't involved at all. It makes no sense to me that the answer to the question of what we could do to lose our salvation could be that nothing we do has any effect on our salvation. There has to be more involved.
I asked for scriptures about work in the HCSB version of the bible, it gave me these:
Joh_9:4We must do the works of Him who sent Me while it is day. Night is coming when no one can work.
Gal_3:5So then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?
1Ti_5:10and is well known for good works--that is, if she has brought up children, shown hospitality, washed the saints' feet, helped the afflicted, and devoted herself to every good work.
Tit_1:16They profess to know God, but they deny Him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, and disqualified for any good work.
All speak for work for the Lord except in Galatians, and that is "works of the law". There must be a difference in these works Paul is speaking of. History tells us that certain sects were so excited about exactly following the letter of the law that they broke the law to follow the letter. For instance, they followed the law to not work on Sunday by breaking the law of love. Paul's ministry was focused on fighting things like this, and it was so focused on this that often people said Paul was against the law.
I think that these "works of the law" are simply a way of saying someone is not following the law, and that our work for the Lord is part of our salvation.
Some posters have said that it is through faith in the Lord, not by any works we do, yet scripture tells us that demons have absolute belief in the Lord, and they certainly are not saved. So faith has to have more than belief, and scripture says so. "Faith without works is dead".
There is a great outcry against a works salvation, saying that works will not save us. Scripture backs that up, for we are told it is only through grace and faith. We know that if man was given the power to decide if God will give them eternal life with anything of himself, man would have the power of God. Only God has that power. So, most posters decide that our work isn't involved at all. It makes no sense to me that the answer to the question of what we could do to lose our salvation could be that nothing we do has any effect on our salvation. There has to be more involved.
I asked for scriptures about work in the HCSB version of the bible, it gave me these:
Joh_9:4We must do the works of Him who sent Me while it is day. Night is coming when no one can work.
Gal_3:5So then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?
1Ti_5:10and is well known for good works--that is, if she has brought up children, shown hospitality, washed the saints' feet, helped the afflicted, and devoted herself to every good work.
Tit_1:16They profess to know God, but they deny Him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, and disqualified for any good work.
All speak for work for the Lord except in Galatians, and that is "works of the law". There must be a difference in these works Paul is speaking of. History tells us that certain sects were so excited about exactly following the letter of the law that they broke the law to follow the letter. For instance, they followed the law to not work on Sunday by breaking the law of love. Paul's ministry was focused on fighting things like this, and it was so focused on this that often people said Paul was against the law.
I think that these "works of the law" are simply a way of saying someone is not following the law, and that our work for the Lord is part of our salvation.
I am sorry I could not let this slide. This is one the most arrogant posts I have seen written out of ignorance! I believe in OSAS but I would NEVER tell anyone who has accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior that they aren't saved just because they don't believe in OSAS. We are saved by the blood of Christ not by whether we believe OSAS or not.
There are many Biblical issues we can debate and I think that's good. It gets us into God's Word gets us studying together. In the end it all comes down to the blood of Christ! He suffered, He died He rose from the grave for our sins so that we may have eternal life with him. You can accept Him or deny Him (saved or unsaved)
Well, yeah, my bad in painting everyone with the same brush. In my experience here on CC, I've found that many (if not most) of the more vehement OSASers like to insult the salvation of those who believe differently. But to make a blanket statement that they all do that was wrong. Of course they don't all do that. Mea Culpa.
K
That maybe true with you, but there are a lot of OSAS believers on here that I have talked to as well that because we don't believe exactly like they believe the do exactly what RickZ said. They start condemning us for it.
I just usually come back at them with this;
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
I just usually come back at them with this;
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.