Catholic Heresy (for the record)

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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
A sword pierced her heart! That's what she experienced when she saw her Son on the cross. And that is not speculation, it was prophecied when Jesus was brought to the Temple when He was a child.
How is that any different from any parent who has lost a child? I cannot imagine the agony of such a loss yet Mary witnessed her son be crucified.

Oh how she must have clung to the promises that Jesus would rise again and defeat death. Oh the joy of resurrection morning and the empty tomb.

Jesus gives us sure and certain hope that none other can give. Sealed with the Holy Spirit the moment we accept Christ as our Savior and ask Him to forgive us of all our sins. Mercy and grace no works of our own. It is all Christ or it is not at all.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Elin said:
How do you address these Scriptures in the way "Lord" is used in the context?

Lk 1:44-45 - "As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears,
the baby in my womb leaped for joy.
Blesses is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished."


Lk 1:43 - "But why am I so favored that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

Lk 1:46 - "And Mary said: 'My soul magnifies (glorifies) the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior. . .
from now on all generations will call me blessed."

Don't mistake me as defending the Immaculate Conception of Mary
and particularly the egregious heresy of Mary as Co-Redemptrix.


But are we over-reacting to those heresies of man by denying Mary
at least as much respect as the apostles?

Should we be calling her the blessed mother, as Scripture states?
It was the hope of every Jewish woman that
her first born child would be male and would be the Messiah.
Is this the context in which Mary should be considered blessed?
Precisely, she was mother of the Messiah.

So should we be calling her the blessed mother, as Scripture states?

And you did not answer my bolded question in the quote above.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
Precisely, she was mother of the Messiah.

So should we be calling her the blessed mother, as Scripture states?

And you did not answer my bolded question in the quote above.
Now we must consider that Mary was the mother of Christ's physical body not His divine being. I would not consider Mary to be blessed in the sense that venerate her. God chose Israel from among all the nations of the earth and called them for His purpose do we call Israel blessed Israel?

I am blessed in Christ Who is my Redeemer.

Psalm 103. Bless the Lord Oh my soul.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Nov 30, 2012
2,396
26
0
Now we must consider that Mary was the mother of Christ's physical body not His divine being. I would not consider Mary to be blessed in the sense that venerate her. God chose Israel from among all the nations of the earth and called them for His purpose do we call Israel blessed Israel?

I am blessed in Christ Who is my Redeemer.

Psalm 103. Bless the Lord Oh my soul.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
And that view was held as heresy since the 300s AD. The founders of the Protest viewed that as heresy.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
And that view was held as heresy since the 300s AD. The founders of the Protest viewed that as heresy.
You are entitled to you opinion. You are entitled to be wrong. Mary was not the mother of God. God existed in eternity past. There is no time when God did not exist nor will there ever be a time when God does not exist.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
D

didymos

Guest
Now we must consider that Mary was the mother of Christ's physical body not His divine being. (...)
Not even that. She was just a vessel, nothing more. (Luke 1:38)

 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
Not even that. She was just a vessel, nothing more. (Luke 1:38)

In the technical aspect that is true but God used Mary to care for and tend to the human needs of Jesus like every other child born into this life. I guess today we would consider Mary a surrogate mother although that seems a little crass.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

TKICBS

Junior Member
May 20, 2014
33
2
8
We Catholics are Christians.
There are Catholics who are Christian, yes, however, the denomination has been long since demonized. Do not take my word for this. Study scripture and ask Jesus to show you the truth about it. We have one mediator between us and God, Jesus Christ the righteous.
If you desire the truth about it please search YouTube for "Slavi, Illuminati defector" or search "the black Pope" or study the vow that all Jesuits make eventually and that your present Pope most definitely made. Here is an explanation:

"When a Jesuit of the minor rank is to be elevated to command, he is conducted into the Chapel of the Convent of the Order, where there are only three others present, the principal or Superior standing in front of the altar. On either side stands a monk, one of whom holds a banner of yellow and white, which are the Papal colors, and the other a black banner with a dagger and red cross above a skull and crossbones, with the word INRI, and below them the words IUSTUM, NECAR, REGES, IMPIOUS. The meaning of which is: It is just to exterminate or annihilate impious or heretical Kings, Governments, or Rulers.

Upon the floor is a red cross at which the candidate kneels. The Superior hands him a small black crucifix, which he takes in his left hand and presses to his heart, and the Superior at the same time presents to him a dagger, which he grasps by the blade and holds the point against his heart, the Superior still holding it by the hilt, and thus addresses the candidate:"

Superior speaks:
My son, heretofore you have been taught to act the dissembler: among Roman Catholics to be a Roman Catholic, and to be a spy even among your own brethren; to believe no man, to trust no man. Among the Reformers, to be a Reformer; among the Huguenots, to be a Huguenot; among the Calvinists, to be a Calvinist; among other Protestants, generally to be a Protestant, and obtaining their confidence, to seek even to preach from their pulpits, and to denounce with all the vehemence in your nature our Holy Religion and the Pope; and even to descend so low as to become a Jew among Jews, that you might be enabled to gather together all information for the benefit of your Order as a faithful soldier of the Pope.

You have been taught to insidiously plant the seeds of jealousy and hatred between communities, provinces, states that were at peace, and incite them to deeds of blood, involving them in war with each other, and to create revolutions and civil wars in countries that were independent and prosperous, cultivating the arts and the sciences and enjoying the blessings of peace. To take sides with the combatants and to act secretly with your brother Jesuit, who might be engaged on the other side, but openly opposed to that with which you might be connected, only that the Church might be the gainer in the end, in the conditions fixed in the treaties for peace and that the end justifies the means.

You have been taught your duty as a spy, to gather all statistics, facts and information in your power from every source; to ingratiate yourself into the confidence of the family circle of Protestants and heretics of every class and character, as well as that of the merchant, the banker, the lawyer, among the schools and universities, in parliaments and legislatures, and the judiciaries and councils of state, and to be all things to all men, for the Pope's sake, whose servants we are unto death.

You have received all your instructions heretofore as a novice, a neophyte, and have served as co-adjurer, confessor and priest, but you have not yet been invested with all that is necessary to command in the Army of Loyola in the service of the Pope. You must serve the proper time as the instrument and executioner as directed by your superiors; for none can command here who has not consecrated his labors with the blood of the heretic; for "without the shedding of blood no man can be saved." Therefore, to fit yourself for your work and make your own salvation sure, you will, in addition to your former oath of obedience to your order and allegiance to the Pope, repeat after me---

The Extreme Oath of the Jesuits:

"1, ____ now, in the presence of Almighty God, the Blessed Virgin Mary, the blessed Michael the Archangel, the blessed St. John the Baptist, the holy Apostles St. Peter and St. Paul and all the saints and sacred hosts of heaven, and to you, my ghostly father, the Superior General of the Society of Jesus, founded by St. Ignatius Loyola in the Pontificate of Paul the Third, and continued to the present, do by the womb of the virgin, the matrix of God, and the rod of Jesus Christ, declare and swear, that his holiness the Pope is Christ's Vice-regent and is the true and only head of the Catholic or Universal Church throughout the earth; and that by virtue of the keys of binding and loosing, given to his Holiness by my Savior, Jesus Christ, he hath power to depose heretical kings, princes, states, commonwealths and governments, all being illegal without his sacred confirmation and that they may safely be destroyed. Therefore, to the utmost of my power I shall and will defend this doctrine of his Holiness' right and custom against all usurpers of the heretical or Protestant authority wherever, especially the Lutheran of Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and the now pretended authority and churches of England and Scotland, and branches of the same now established in Ireland and on the Continent of America and elsewhere; and all adherents in regard that they be usurped and heretical, opposing the sacred Mother Church of Rome. I do now renounce and disown any allegiance as due to any heretical king, prince or state named Protestants or Liberals, or obedience to any of the laws, magistrates or officers.

I do further declare that the doctrine of the churches of England and Scotland, of the Calvinists, Huguenots and others of the name Protestants or Liberals to be damnable and they themselves damned who will not forsake the same.

I do further declare, that I will help, assist, and advise all or any of his Holiness' agents in any place wherever I shall be, in Switzerland, Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, England, Ireland or America, or in any other Kingdom or territory I shall come to, and do my uttermost to extirpate the heretical Protestants or Liberals' doctrines and to destroy all their pretended powers, regal or otherwise.

I do further promise and declare, that notwithstanding I am dispensed with, to assume my religion heretical, for the propaganda of the Mother Church's interest, to keep secret and private all her agents' counsels from time to time, as they may entrust me and not to divulge, directly or indirectly, by word, writing or circumstance whatever; but to execute all that shall be proposed, given in charge or discovered unto me, by you, my ghostly father, or any of this sacred covenant.

I do further promise and declare, that I will have no opinion or will of my own, or any mental reservation whatever, even as a corpse or cadaver (perinde ac cadaver), but will unhesitatingly obey each and every command that I may receive from my superiors in the Militia of the Pope and of Jesus Christ.

That I may go to any part of the world withersoever I may be sent, to the frozen regions of the North, the burning sands of the desert of Africa, or the jungles of India, to the centers of civilization of Europe, or to the wild haunts of the barbarous savages of America, without murmuring or repining, and will be submissive in all things whatsoever communicated to me.

I furthermore promise and declare that I will, when opportunity present, make and wage relentless war, secretly or openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do, to extirpate and exterminate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex or condition; and that I will hang, waste, boil, flay, strangle and bury alive these infamous heretics, rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants' heads against the walls, in order to annihilate forever their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly, I will secretly use the poisoned cup, the strangulating cord, the steel of the poniard or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honor, rank, dignity, or authority of the person or persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agent of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Faith, of the Society of Jesus.

In confirmation of which, I hereby dedicate my life, my soul and all my corporal powers, and with this dagger which I now receive, I will subscribe my name written in my own blood, in testimony thereof; and should I prove false or weaken in my determination, may my brethren and fellow soldiers of the Militia of the Pope cut off my hands and my feet, and my throat from ear to ear, my belly opened and sulfur burned therein, with all the punishment that can be inflicted upon me on earth and my soul be tortured by demons in an eternal hell forever!

All of which, I, ____, do swear by the Blessed Trinity and blessed Sacraments, which I am now to receive, to perform and on my part to keep inviolable; and do call all the heavenly and glorious host of heaven to witness the blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist, and witness the same further with my name written and with the point of this dagger dipped in my own blood and sealed in the face of this holy covenant."

(He receives the wafer from the Superior and writes his name with the point of his dagger dipped in his own blood taken from over his heart.)

Superior speaks:

"You will now rise to your feet and I will instruct you in the Catechism necessary to make yourself known to any member of the Society of Jesus belonging to this rank.

In the first place, you, as a Brother Jesuit, will with another mutually make the ordinary sign of the cross as any ordinary Roman Catholic would; then one cross his wrists, the palms of his hands open, and the other in answer crosses his feet, one above the other; the first points with forefinger of the right hand to the center of the palm of the left, the other with the forefinger of the left hand points to the center of the palm of the right; the first then with his right hand makes a circle around his head, touching it; the other then with the forefinger of his left hand touches the left side of his body just below his heart; the first then with his right hand draws it across the throat of the other, and the latter then with a dagger down the stomach and abdomen of the first. The first then says Iustum; and the other answers Necar; the first Reges. The other answers Impious." (The meaning of which has already been explained.) "The first will then present a small piece of paper folded in a peculiar manner, four times, which the other will cut longitudinally and on opening the name Jesu will be found written upon the head and arms of a cross three times. You will then give and receive with him the following questions and answers:

Question —From whither do you come?

Answer — The Holy faith.

Q. —Whom do you serve?

A. —The Holy Father at Rome, the Pope, and the Roman Catholic Church Universal throughout the world.

Q. —Who commands you?

A. —The Successor of St. Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the Society of Jesus or the Soldiers of Jesus Christ.

Q. —Who received you?

A. —A venerable man in white hair.

Q. —How?

A. —With a naked dagger, I kneeling upon the cross beneath the banners of the Pope and of our sacred order.

Q. —Did you take an oath?

A. —I did, to destroy heretics and their governments and rulers, and to spare neither age, sex nor condition. To be as a corpse without any opinion or will of my own, but to implicitly obey my Superiors in all things without hesitation of murmuring.

Q. —Will you do that?

A. —I will.

Q. —How do you travel?

A. —In the bark of Peter the fisherman.

Q. —Whither do you travel?

Q. —Whither do you travel?

A. —To the four quarters of the globe.

Q. —For what purpose?

A. —To obey the orders of my general and Superiors and execute the will of the Pope and faithfully fulfill the conditions of my oaths.

Q. —Go ye, then, into all the world and take possession of all lands in the name of the Pope. He who will not accept him as the Vicar of Jesus and his Vice-regent on earth, let him be accursed and exterminated."

Now ask yourself, "Would Jesus direct such foolishness." Would Jesus have commanded the crusades. If you think so you need to reread the gospels.

We live in a fallen world where we are lead by our fears and our emotions. God wants to lead us with love, righteousness, and wisdom in faith. Not old testament faith where we fight and kill our enemies in the name of the Lord but in faith that God is with us and we need not fear death for it is the victory over the grave in Christ. It requires a constant relationship with God where we know he is with us in all circumstances and he desires that our enemies be saved not slain. Saved into a relationship with him not with the Pope or some pastor or Nun. It is personal and until we understand this we are caught in this world and the wars of this world. But in Christ we can walk through the battlefield unscathed or if not we can still have our relationship with him to the point of death without ever fighting back. That is the victory.
 

TKICBS

Junior Member
May 20, 2014
33
2
8
I am sorry but Mary was not a surrogate mother. She was the true mother of Jesus and Joseph was the surrogate father. Mary gave birth to Jesus. She was chosen by God for this honor. Not that she should be worshiped or even spoken to after death for that would be speaking to the dead and no different than Saul's sin when he went to a medium and called up Samuel. Jesus had to be born into this world through a woman in order to be tempted and slain for our sins.
Did you know that when they found the Ark of the covenant under the cross hole where Jesus was crucified they tested the blood and found it had 24 female chromosomes and only 1 male chromosome? Isn't that awesome?
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Now we must consider that
Mary was the mother of Christ's physical body not His divine being.
Was his physical body not the Messiah?

I would not consider Mary to be blessed in the sense that venerate her.
Talking here only about what the Word of God states, which is not unseated by man's practices.

God chose Israel from among all the nations of the earth and called them for His purpose
do we call Israel blessed Israel?
Does the Word of God state that all generations will call Israel blessed, as it does of Mary (Lk 1:48).

Why do you argue against the Word of God?

Do you mind calling the apostles "holy" as the Scripture states?
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
notuptome said:
Now we must consider that Mary was the mother of Christ's physical body not His divine being. (...)
Not even that. She was just a vessel, nothing more. (Luke 1:38)
If he were not of the seed of the woman, he would not be human.

"And the Word was made flesh."
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
In the technical aspect that is true but God used Mary to care for and tend to the human needs of Jesus like every other child born into this life.
I guess today we would consider Mary a surrogate mother
Now you are guessing the meaning of Scripture.

A surrogate mother does not give birth to what is of her own seed.

although that seems a little crass.
Which is where trying to rationalize away the Word of God will get you.
 
L

Last

Guest
There are Catholics who are Christian, yes, however, the denomination has been long since demonized. Do not take my word for this. Study scripture and ask Jesus to show you the truth about it. We have one mediator between us and God, Jesus Christ the righteous.
If you desire the truth about it please search YouTube for "Slavi, Illuminati defector" or search "the black Pope" or study the vow that all Jesuits make eventually and that your present Pope most definitely made. Here is an explanation:

"When a Jesuit of the minor rank is to be elevated to command, he is conducted into the Chapel of the Convent of the Order, where there are only three others present, the principal or Superior standing in front of the altar. On either side stands a monk, one of whom holds a banner of yellow and white, which are the Papal colors, and the other a black banner with a dagger and red cross above a skull and crossbones, with the word INRI, and below them the words IUSTUM, NECAR, REGES, IMPIOUS. The meaning of which is: It is just to exterminate or annihilate impious or heretical Kings, Governments, or Rulers.

Upon the floor is a red cross at which the candidate kneels. The Superior hands him a small black crucifix, which he takes in his left hand and presses to his heart, and the Superior at the same time presents to him a dagger, which he grasps by the blade and holds the point against his heart, the Superior still holding it by the hilt, and thus addresses the candidate:"

Superior speaks:
My son, heretofore you have been taught to act the dissembler: among Roman Catholics to be a Roman Catholic, and to be a spy even among your own brethren; to believe no man, to trust no man. Among the Reformers, to be a Reformer; among the Huguenots, to be a Huguenot; among the Calvinists, to be a Calvinist; among other Protestants, generally to be a Protestant, and obtaining their confidence, to seek even to preach from their pulpits, and to denounce with all the vehemence in your nature our Holy Religion and the Pope; and even to descend so low as to become a Jew among Jews, that you might be enabled to gather together all information for the benefit of your Order as a faithful soldier of the Pope.

You have been taught to insidiously plant the seeds of jealousy and hatred between communities, provinces, states that were at peace, and incite them to deeds of blood, involving them in war with each other, and to create revolutions and civil wars in countries that were independent and prosperous, cultivating the arts and the sciences and enjoying the blessings of peace. To take sides with the combatants and to act secretly with your brother Jesuit, who might be engaged on the other side, but openly opposed to that with which you might be connected, only that the Church might be the gainer in the end, in the conditions fixed in the treaties for peace and that the end justifies the means.

You have been taught your duty as a spy, to gather all statistics, facts and information in your power from every source; to ingratiate yourself into the confidence of the family circle of Protestants and heretics of every class and character, as well as that of the merchant, the banker, the lawyer, among the schools and universities, in parliaments and legislatures, and the judiciaries and councils of state, and to be all things to all men, for the Pope's sake, whose servants we are unto death.

You have received all your instructions heretofore as a novice, a neophyte, and have served as co-adjurer, confessor and priest, but you have not yet been invested with all that is necessary to command in the Army of Loyola in the service of the Pope. You must serve the proper time as the instrument and executioner as directed by your superiors; for none can command here who has not consecrated his labors with the blood of the heretic; for "without the shedding of blood no man can be saved." Therefore, to fit yourself for your work and make your own salvation sure, you will, in addition to your former oath of obedience to your order and allegiance to the Pope, repeat after me---

The Extreme Oath of the Jesuits:

"1, ____ now, in the presence of Almighty God, the Blessed Virgin Mary, the blessed Michael the Archangel, the blessed St. John the Baptist, the holy Apostles St. Peter and St. Paul and all the saints and sacred hosts of heaven, and to you, my ghostly father, the Superior General of the Society of Jesus, founded by St. Ignatius Loyola in the Pontificate of Paul the Third, and continued to the present, do by the womb of the virgin, the matrix of God, and the rod of Jesus Christ, declare and swear, that his holiness the Pope is Christ's Vice-regent and is the true and only head of the Catholic or Universal Church throughout the earth; and that by virtue of the keys of binding and loosing, given to his Holiness by my Savior, Jesus Christ, he hath power to depose heretical kings, princes, states, commonwealths and governments, all being illegal without his sacred confirmation and that they may safely be destroyed. Therefore, to the utmost of my power I shall and will defend this doctrine of his Holiness' right and custom against all usurpers of the heretical or Protestant authority wherever, especially the Lutheran of Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and the now pretended authority and churches of England and Scotland, and branches of the same now established in Ireland and on the Continent of America and elsewhere; and all adherents in regard that they be usurped and heretical, opposing the sacred Mother Church of Rome. I do now renounce and disown any allegiance as due to any heretical king, prince or state named Protestants or Liberals, or obedience to any of the laws, magistrates or officers.

I do further declare that the doctrine of the churches of England and Scotland, of the Calvinists, Huguenots and others of the name Protestants or Liberals to be damnable and they themselves damned who will not forsake the same.

I do further declare, that I will help, assist, and advise all or any of his Holiness' agents in any place wherever I shall be, in Switzerland, Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, England, Ireland or America, or in any other Kingdom or territory I shall come to, and do my uttermost to extirpate the heretical Protestants or Liberals' doctrines and to destroy all their pretended powers, regal or otherwise.

I do further promise and declare, that notwithstanding I am dispensed with, to assume my religion heretical, for the propaganda of the Mother Church's interest, to keep secret and private all her agents' counsels from time to time, as they may entrust me and not to divulge, directly or indirectly, by word, writing or circumstance whatever; but to execute all that shall be proposed, given in charge or discovered unto me, by you, my ghostly father, or any of this sacred covenant.

I do further promise and declare, that I will have no opinion or will of my own, or any mental reservation whatever, even as a corpse or cadaver (perinde ac cadaver), but will unhesitatingly obey each and every command that I may receive from my superiors in the Militia of the Pope and of Jesus Christ.

That I may go to any part of the world withersoever I may be sent, to the frozen regions of the North, the burning sands of the desert of Africa, or the jungles of India, to the centers of civilization of Europe, or to the wild haunts of the barbarous savages of America, without murmuring or repining, and will be submissive in all things whatsoever communicated to me.

I furthermore promise and declare that I will, when opportunity present, make and wage relentless war, secretly or openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do, to extirpate and exterminate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex or condition; and that I will hang, waste, boil, flay, strangle and bury alive these infamous heretics, rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants' heads against the walls, in order to annihilate forever their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly, I will secretly use the poisoned cup, the strangulating cord, the steel of the poniard or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honor, rank, dignity, or authority of the person or persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agent of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Faith, of the Society of Jesus.

In confirmation of which, I hereby dedicate my life, my soul and all my corporal powers, and with this dagger which I now receive, I will subscribe my name written in my own blood, in testimony thereof; and should I prove false or weaken in my determination, may my brethren and fellow soldiers of the Militia of the Pope cut off my hands and my feet, and my throat from ear to ear, my belly opened and sulfur burned therein, with all the punishment that can be inflicted upon me on earth and my soul be tortured by demons in an eternal hell forever!

All of which, I, ____, do swear by the Blessed Trinity and blessed Sacraments, which I am now to receive, to perform and on my part to keep inviolable; and do call all the heavenly and glorious host of heaven to witness the blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist, and witness the same further with my name written and with the point of this dagger dipped in my own blood and sealed in the face of this holy covenant."

(He receives the wafer from the Superior and writes his name with the point of his dagger dipped in his own blood taken from over his heart.)

Superior speaks:

"You will now rise to your feet and I will instruct you in the Catechism necessary to make yourself known to any member of the Society of Jesus belonging to this rank.

In the first place, you, as a Brother Jesuit, will with another mutually make the ordinary sign of the cross as any ordinary Roman Catholic would; then one cross his wrists, the palms of his hands open, and the other in answer crosses his feet, one above the other; the first points with forefinger of the right hand to the center of the palm of the left, the other with the forefinger of the left hand points to the center of the palm of the right; the first then with his right hand makes a circle around his head, touching it; the other then with the forefinger of his left hand touches the left side of his body just below his heart; the first then with his right hand draws it across the throat of the other, and the latter then with a dagger down the stomach and abdomen of the first. The first then says Iustum; and the other answers Necar; the first Reges. The other answers Impious." (The meaning of which has already been explained.) "The first will then present a small piece of paper folded in a peculiar manner, four times, which the other will cut longitudinally and on opening the name Jesu will be found written upon the head and arms of a cross three times. You will then give and receive with him the following questions and answers:

Question —From whither do you come?

Answer — The Holy faith.

Q. —Whom do you serve?

A. —The Holy Father at Rome, the Pope, and the Roman Catholic Church Universal throughout the world.

Q. —Who commands you?

A. —The Successor of St. Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the Society of Jesus or the Soldiers of Jesus Christ.

Q. —Who received you?

A. —A venerable man in white hair.

Q. —How?

A. —With a naked dagger, I kneeling upon the cross beneath the banners of the Pope and of our sacred order.

Q. —Did you take an oath?

A. —I did, to destroy heretics and their governments and rulers, and to spare neither age, sex nor condition. To be as a corpse without any opinion or will of my own, but to implicitly obey my Superiors in all things without hesitation of murmuring.

Q. —Will you do that?

A. —I will.

Q. —How do you travel?

A. —In the bark of Peter the fisherman.

Q. —Whither do you travel?

Q. —Whither do you travel?

A. —To the four quarters of the globe.

Q. —For what purpose?

A. —To obey the orders of my general and Superiors and execute the will of the Pope and faithfully fulfill the conditions of my oaths.

Q. —Go ye, then, into all the world and take possession of all lands in the name of the Pope. He who will not accept him as the Vicar of Jesus and his Vice-regent on earth, let him be accursed and exterminated."

Now ask yourself, "Would Jesus direct such foolishness." Would Jesus have commanded the crusades. If you think so you need to reread the gospels.

We live in a fallen world where we are lead by our fears and our emotions. God wants to lead us with love, righteousness, and wisdom in faith. Not old testament faith where we fight and kill our enemies in the name of the Lord but in faith that God is with us and we need not fear death for it is the victory over the grave in Christ. It requires a constant relationship with God where we know he is with us in all circumstances and he desires that our enemies be saved not slain. Saved into a relationship with him not with the Pope or some pastor or Nun. It is personal and until we understand this we are caught in this world and the wars of this world. But in Christ we can walk through the battlefield unscathed or if not we can still have our relationship with him to the point of death without ever fighting back. That is the victory.
Have you been to a Jesuit ordination? Or do you just cut and paste stuff off the internet without doing any fact checking?
Do you even know any Jesuits?
 
L

Last

Guest
In the technical aspect that is true but God used Mary to care for and tend to the human needs of Jesus like every other child born into this life. I guess today we would consider Mary a surrogate mother although that seems a little crass.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
If Mary is a surrogate mother, then Jesus is not of us. Jesus is a human being and received His humanity, His flesh and blood through Mary. That is what was offered on the cross and that is what brought salvation to us.

Pseudo-gnostic nonsense never seems to die.
 
Jan 17, 2013
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Jesus is a human being and received His humanity, His flesh and blood through Mary. That is what was offered on the cross and that is what brought salvation to us.
Yes!

Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant.

Praised be Jesus Christ!

 
L

Last

Guest
Umm... there is no such thing as 'male' and 'female' chromosomes. Humans have 46 chromosomes, 23 pairs of two chromosomes. Generally speaking, In one of those pairs, women have two Xs and men have a X and a Y chromosome.
 
J

john17

Guest
At first glance, it seems the label of Mary as the "Mother of God" is blasphemous, since God is a Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But the Gospel tells us that the God being referred to here, in which Mary is a mother of, is the second person of the Trinity, Jesus and not the whole trinity. Knowing that Jesus is God, we can rightly label Mary as the "Mother of God" being conscious that the God here is the second person of the Trinity.

So we have two choices:
1. Declaring Mary as "Mother of God" being conscious that the God here is the second person of the Trinity; or
2. Declaring Mary as "Mother of Jesus" being conscious that Jesus is God and is the second person of the Trinity.

The first option serves *so many* purposes than the second, in terms of preaching the Gospel.

First, it makes the mystery of Incarnation (the central mystery of Christianity, aside from the Trinity) so fully alive. Anyone who has not encountered Christianity hearing the phrase "Mother of God" will be compelled to ask: How can a God, an eternal Being, has a mother? Then we can answer him: God's love is tremendous that He came down to us, as a baby born in Bethlehem, to redeem us of our sins and reunite us again with the Triune God, the thing Adam and Eve lost in the Fall. So the three words "Mother of God" captures this mystery of incarnation. The Word made flesh.

Second, the phrase automatically profess the divinity of Christ, and removes the early heresy saying that Jesus is only human, not divine. This heresy is still alive today (e.g. Jehova's Witnesses), and hence the Church has been battling this heresy for a very long time. Proponents of this heresy even uses the Bible to prove that Jesus is only human. (This is one of the flaws of denying the living Magisterium and just subscribe to private interpretation of the Bible). So in declaring Mary as "Mother of God", we are putting forward Christ's divinity, not just a required awareness.

Third, officially calling Mary as the "Mother of God" separates us from these "christians" who deny Christ's divinity, since all of them (e.g. Jehova's Witnesses) declares Mary as a mother of Jesus, but without the additional conviction that Jesus is God.

Fourth, the title prevents the error of Nestorianism, the teaching that Christ's humanity and divinity are disunited. This heresy gives us two Jesuses: one human and one divine. The error is that we have two beings: one is created, and one is uncreated. But Jesus is only one, and he is 100% human and 100% divine. We cannot say that Mary gave birth to only the human Jesus because there is only one Jesus, and this includes his divinity. At some point, before the Second Person of the Trinity is born, the Second Person of the Trinity is purely spirit. After He is born, then he is now 100% human and 100% divine. So in a way, choosing Mary as "Mother of Jesus" with the attached reason that Mary gave birth to the human Jesus, then one has fallen to the error of Nestorianism.

All these reasons of choosing Mary as "Mother of God" is really Christ-centered. We don't call Mary as "Mother of God" as if she has supernatural powers above the Triune God. I don't see anything wrong calling Mary as "Mother of God" with the awareness that this God is Jesus.

We call Mary as the "Mother of God" because she gave birth to Jesus, our Lord, Saviour and ultimately, God.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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If Mary is a surrogate mother, then Jesus is not of us. Jesus is a human being and received His humanity, His flesh and blood through Mary. That is what was offered on the cross and that is what brought salvation to us.

Pseudo-gnostic nonsense never seems to die.
Body yes blood not quite so fast. The blood comes from the Father. Pseudo science and pseudo religion what a dynamic combination. Makes for a pseudo believer.

There is no virtue in believing that which is untrue or unbiblical no matter how dearly held.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant.
There is no Ark of the New Covenant. That is an invention of man, not God.

And in the New Covenant, Christ dwells in all those who have saving faith in him.

Nor is Mary a representation of the Ark of the Testimony of the OT.

First of all, in the OT the throne of God was above the ark, not in it.

In it were testimonies to their sin:

stone tablets - testimony to the covenant's conditions, and to their sin in breaking the commandments,
jar of manna - testimony to their grumbling (Ex 16:2-4, 33), and
Aaron's staff - testimony to Korah's rebellion against the priesthood (Nu 16:1-3, 17:10).

Mary is neither the Ark of the New Covenant, nor a representation of the Ark of the Testimony of the OT.