Old Earth/Young Earth

[EmethAlethia]

Of course the earth, and the universe, "Appears" old. If it didn't the scriptures would be wrong. According to scripture the Chicken was created first, not eggs. According to scripture adult trees were created first, not seeds ...

In other words, if you took the top scientists back to day 7 of creation they would all say that the universe was billions of years old then. All of the star light would be there (If they could see it. You could only see a greater and a lesser light due to the water canopy.). The point is, I thank evolutionists who tell me that the universe appears to have great age, and quote reasons, because that is what God says He did. If they didn't it would be inconsistent.

The problem is, from an evolutionistic standpoint, they cannot come up with a consistent date ANYWHERE. All they can say is that it appears to be very old, and depending on what they are measuring, be it dust on the moon, or expansion due to a presumed big bang, you get 3000 years or 3 billion, and they don't have any explanation for all of the tremendous variations. My answer: God made it that way. Bugs the heck out of you that you can't explain it, huh?

 

[Tintin]

Old Age beliefs allow for the evolutionary timescale but it doesn't always accept evolutionary storytelling. Of course, there are theistic evolutionists and many of them are Christian. There are also Christians who are so-called 'progressive' creationists. And to me, progressive means allowing for a non-biblical interpretation. I believe you need to get a few of your facts correct. The Big Bang model has many issues, it's no longer a viable theory and the water canopy pre-Flood theory is no longer accepted by most biblical creationists. Also, creation is a little over 6,000 years old, not 3,000 years old or 3 billion years old. The current evolutionary belief is that everything came into being around 13.8 billion years ago. Either way, the billions of years of history timescale is bogus. So, not bad, you just need to work with up-to-date information.

 

[EmethAlethia]

Hi there Tintin,

Thanks for the reply. The 3000 years was based on the levels of moon dust found on the moon landing. I didn't realize that it had been revised. It isn't talked about much because the evolutionists have no explanations for it. Actually, by their calculations the moon had to be younger than 3000 Years old based on dust levels, if I am remembering correctly. I just threw out a range. Wasn't trying to give accurate estimates as to "current thinking". Wait a week and that will change. Anything that results in a young universe estimate gets buried pretty quick though. It's kind of like the fossilized trees going through "millions of years" of strata in coal beds. You don't hear much about it because it doesn't fit their model of it being deposited over long periods of time.

I probably should have done some searches as to the "newest" age estimates, but like I said, 5 years ago they were different, 5 years before that they were different ... and if you look at all the "different" estimates based on "different" things studied, staying within 10% of any estimate is impossible, and anything that was determined to be "way off" from "Todays" estimates will be buried and never mentioned again, just like the places where the strata of fossils deposited and the supposed age of the rocks they are in, is the complete opposite of what it should be. Mammals at the bottom? Single celled creatures at the top? All layers reversed? Shoot, we don't have an explanation. Throw that in an appendix someplace and never bring it up again.

 

[Bowman]

According to scripture adult trees were created first, not seeds ...

Scripture?

 

[Bowman]

The 3000 years was based on the levels of moon dust found on the moon landing.

So...you believe that man walked on the moon...?

That same science that put a man on the moon states that the Universe is Billions of years old.

 

[Calminian]

I would just ask my old earth brothers (and even Ross directly, though I know his response), if the earth is truly millions of years old, and man is just a recent blip in the billions of years since the Big Bang, where did death comes from? Where did suffering come from?

Now biblical creationists believe that God created a "very good" world initially (Gen. 1:31). Animals were designed to eat plants (Gen. 1:29-30) and death and suffering didn't come on the scene until Adam sinned.

But what say you? Where does all the suffering in the world, particularly among animals, come from?

 

[Calminian]

Are there any Christians here who believe the world is as old as we are told? Most Christians I speak to consider the world to be young.

I hope that's true, but I have my doubts.

There is compelling evidence for an old earth even thought the Bible suggests not.

I would submit that the biblical record is the best evidence of all. Testimonial evidence is very valuable in courts of law, but how many witnesses are infallible? In Scripture we have an infallible witness as to how the world came to be. Why would we trust fallible men who weren't there, and can only speculate based on fallible presuppositions?

I follow the Reasons To Believe ministry and they firmly believe the earth to be old - they are not alone in their beliefs. TBH I'm not sure what I believe and my faith doesn't depend on it either way - I believe because I had a very real experience of God entering my life so it makes no difference to me either way, though I have to admit to being curious about it.

I would agree with you this is not a salvation issue, but I won't go so far as to say it has no ramifications. The youth in American are leaving the church at alarming rates. Depending on which surveys you read, anywhere from 66% to 88% leave the faith of the evangelical parents, and many cite conflicts in the book of Genesis with science as reasons.

Day after day, secularists and skeptics pound evolution and millions of years into them, and they know how damaging these beliefs are to christianity. Yet their parents and even pastors have no reply. Like you, they don't think it matters. I just looked a some polling data not too long ago, and there's no question, american youth are fleeing Christianity. Beliefs in the deity of Christ, and resurrection go down about 1% per year, while belief in evolution rises about 1% per year, and I firmly believe there is a correlation.

I do thank God for godly ministries like Answers in Genesis, Creation Ministries International, and Institution for Creation Research, Creation Today, and Apologetics Press, but I fear the church will continue to ignore attacks on the Book of Genesis not realizing it is the foundation upon which all other scripture rests. It contains the origins of death, the origins of sin, the origins of marriage. In fact, the very reason Christ came to earth as the last Adam, was because of what happened with the first Adam. Yet we're conveying to the next generation that Genesis really can't be trusted anymore. The church is standing by while the world fires away at our foundation. I think the church today has become irrelevant in a world that desperately needs to know the true story of our origin. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Percepi]

Thank you for the links.

Unfortunately, none of the links are backed by actual science. : |

Backed by the Bible? Sure, but not science.

 

[Kerry]

Unfortunately, none of the links are backed by actual science. : |

Backed by the Bible? Sure, but not science.

why don't you show us this science, I meant if your skeered then say you skeered.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Funny thing is if you want to go by science alone then there's actually only about 5,000 years of provable existence, plus the Flood event, and then a healthy reasonability to expect there to have been some sort of age before said Flood. For the length of time of the age before the Flood that is where the Bible comes in giving a description in the ballpark of 1,000 some years.

 

[Kerry]

The lie of evolution has never been proven and will not be, I meant a man must live for millions of years to witness it. Yet we have written record dating back over 5,000 years witnessing creation.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

The lie of evolution has never been proven and will not be, I meant a man must live for millions of years to witness it. Yet we have written record dating back over 5,000 years witnessing creation.

This is true, but also remember evolution is a theory, and there's now many new theories on evolution because the original with Darwin simply didn't fit. That's the nature of theories, they are only guesses, some guesses are bound to be wrong, some are beneficial to knowledge, hence science to observe and experiment.Remember there's another edge to the fact that there is only 5,000 years of provable existence. While this does not disprove the Bible it does not fully prove it either, it only proves the Bible up to the Flood because there is very little scientific evidence remaining from the time before the Flood besides the event itself and the bones of enormous creatures, some smaller versions of which are still in existence today and some extinct. Even if we could find the exact time-span of the pre-Flood age indefinantly this still does not fully prove the Bible, but only proves part of it.To fully prove the Bible, need Jesus because Jesus is the Christ. Graciously that is provided and proved in the Gospels.

 

[Tintin]

Unfortunately, none of the links are backed by actual science. : |

Backed by the Bible? Sure, but not science.

Oh, actual science? Right!

 

[Bowman]

I would just ask my old earth brothers (and even Ross directly, though I know his response), if the earth is truly millions of years old, and man is just a recent blip in the billions of years since the Big Bang, where did death comes from? Where did suffering come from?

All things come from the Creator.

Now biblical creationists believe that God created a "very good" world initially (Gen. 1:31). Animals were designed to eat plants (Gen. 1:29-30) and death and suffering didn't come on the scene until Adam sinned.

Death existed before, during , and after, Adam.

Perish that YEC mentality...

But what say you? Where does all the suffering in the world, particularly among animals, come from?

Animals lack a an eternal spirit, thus their death is not of an eternal consequence like it is with mankind.

 

[Percepi]

Before I actually go into the science behind evolution, is there anyone out there who's willing to admit that it's possible they might be wrong and that they would consider changing their views in light of strong evidence? If you believe the Bible is right, therefore all science must be wrong, even if you don't understand how it could be wrong, then there's no point to converse.

 

[Kaycie]

No, I do not believe mankind when they say that the earth is millions of years old. And I do not believe when they say dinosaurs lived millions of years before people. And I not believe when they say it all started with a big bang.

I added it up- from the genealogy since Adam to Christ to now, by adding how long they lived until they had fathered the next son on the list. And by this (if I remember correctly) I estimated the earth to be about 15,000 years old. Therefore, I do not believe in a million years ago in reference to the earth.

Romans 3:4 "Let God be true and every man a liar."

 

[Percepi]

No, I do not believe mankind when they say that the earth is millions of years old. And I do not believe when they say dinosaurs lived millions of years before people. And I not believe when they say it all started with a big bang.

I added it up- from the genealogy since Adam to Christ to now, by adding how long they lived until they had fathered the next son on the list. And by this (if I remember correctly) I estimated the earth to be about 15,000 years old. Therefore, I do not believe in a million years ago in reference to the earth.

Romans 3:4 "Let God be true and every man a liar."

Whether or not evolution is true or not, you have already made up your mind that you will reject it no matter what. Therefore, it doesn't matter what anyone says, you will reject their claims. You have made it so that if you are wrong, you would never be able to know. Understand that if you're going to hold onto an idea as true no matter what, then others can just as readily reject your claims since you lack the ability to be critical of your own views.

 

[just-me]

Before I actually go into the science behind evolution, is there anyone out there who's willing to admit that it's possible they might be wrong and that they would consider changing their views in light of strong evidence? If you believe the Bible is right, therefore all science must be wrong, even if you don't understand how it could be wrong, then there's no point to converse.

No, I do not believe mankind when they say that the earth is millions of years old. And I do not believe when they say dinosaurs lived millions of years before people. And I not believe when they say it all started with a big bang.

I added it up- from the genealogy since Adam to Christ to now, by adding how long they lived until they had fathered the next son on the list. And by this (if I remember correctly) I estimated the earth to be about 15,000 years old. Therefore, I do not believe in a million years ago in reference to the earth.

Romans 3:4 "Let God be true and every man a liar."

Whether or not evolution is true or not, you have already made up your mind that you will reject it no matter what. Therefore, it doesn't matter what anyone says, you will reject their claims. You have made it so that if you are wrong, you would never be able to know. Understand that if you're going to hold onto an idea as true no matter what, then others can just as readily reject your claims since you lack the ability to be critical of your own views.

As much as the Bible gives for information can be taken as solid truth. Anything other than that is speculation. You could be right, but if the Bible cannot be used to prove what we assume, then it is obvious that there is no need to know at this point of our lives. If we did know that the earth was billions of years old, would that make a difference to the intentions of what God has for those that love Him? I don't believe so. God bless.

 

[EmethAlethia]

Percepi,

Coming from the position of being an ex Atheist who gathered all of the possible scientific facts that I could to prove the flood / Genesis account false, and everything I could to prove that evolution was true, and had a stack of evidence, knee high supporting both sides of that issue, in favor of evolution, and who gathered over 10,000 errors in scripture to prove that wrong, and my conclusions that it was unreliable and untrustworthy true, I am always willing to re-evaluate ALL of the evidence that is available, and cut-straight all of it, and put it all together using logic, reason ... and I will do as the bible says and alter my beliefs to fit what is good / true.


Before we go on though, let me give you one point. The earth, animals, mankind, all the things on the earth, were all created with a semblance of age. We have the chicken first, according to God, not a bunch of Eggs. We have full grown trees, rocks that appeared old on day 7. And I would give you that, if you took all of the top scientists, and all of their instruments back to day 7 after creation, they would come to the same conclusions as they do today, albeit they might have had some difficulty seeing the stars (Greater and lesser light) Water canopy ...


That said, anything pertaining to age is a given. I agree, the bible says God created it that way, thanks for confirming that it "appears" that way to scientists as well. Not that God needs their confirmation. LOL

 

[EmethAlethia]

Percepi,

One more thing, if all a person does is gather the things that he can "use" to prove his beliefs true, and what he can "use" to prove all opposing beliefs false, does that imply that a person loves truth?

Is it not true that anyone, and everyone, can hold fast to their beliefs if they use this methodology, and that doing EXACTLY this can only harden people into what they already believe? If so, then those who do this with their beliefs do not love, or want, truth at all. Indeed, they have closed their eyes and ears to anything that might destroy their most precious beliefs. Do you agree? If so, should we not set some guidelines for determining truth first, i.e. we won't just seek out things that fit with our beliefs, but absolutely every piece of data that might apply, ...