-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
C
The problem is you're not providing ANY evidence. Am I supposed to just take your word for it?
Here's what evidence looks like.
The Ugarit texts which speak of El and Baal date to the 14th-12th century BCE
"The existence of the Ugaritic language is attested to in texts from the 14th through the 12th century BC."
Stanislav Segert, A basic Grammar of the Ugaritic Language: with selected texts and glossary (1984) 1997.
Ugarit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
On the other hand, the Hebrew Bible was mainly composed between the 5th and 8th centuries BCE.
Dating the Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"As for the identification of a ‘national’ god, it has to be emphasized that this is a long process. The adoption of Yahweh as the god of the Israelite tribes from their origin is clearly an interpretation of later historiography. Even the role of Yahweh (with the title of Yahweh Sebaoth) in crucial episodes such as the battle of Taanach (see §4.3) looks suspicious. It is a fact that none of the patriarchs, tribal eponyms, ‘Judges’ or earliest monarchs has a Yahwistic name. Such names existed (e.g. Joshua, Jonathan the son of Saul), but in a very low percentage, even lower than other names with theophoric elements of Ba’al, El, ‘Anat, Zedek, Shalom, and others. We have reason to believe that the cult of Yahweh became a ‘national’ cult in the kingdom of Judah only between 900–850 (see §6.5) and in the kingdom of Israel between 850–800 (see §5.7)." pg. 76
Israel's History and the History of Israel - Mario Liverani
"The oldest West Semitic attestation of the name is the inscription of the victory stela erected by Mesha, king of Moab, in the 9th century BC. In this inscription, Yahweh is not presented as a Moabite deity, but as the national god of Israelite people. Mesha rather records how he defeated Israel, and plundered the temple of Yahweh, presenting the spoils to his own god, Chemosh. This is an alternate vision of the events described in 2 Kings 3."
Yahweh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Here's what evidence looks like.
The Ugarit texts which speak of El and Baal date to the 14th-12th century BCE
"The existence of the Ugaritic language is attested to in texts from the 14th through the 12th century BC."
Stanislav Segert, A basic Grammar of the Ugaritic Language: with selected texts and glossary (1984) 1997.
Ugarit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
On the other hand, the Hebrew Bible was mainly composed between the 5th and 8th centuries BCE.
Dating the Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"As for the identification of a ‘national’ god, it has to be emphasized that this is a long process. The adoption of Yahweh as the god of the Israelite tribes from their origin is clearly an interpretation of later historiography. Even the role of Yahweh (with the title of Yahweh Sebaoth) in crucial episodes such as the battle of Taanach (see §4.3) looks suspicious. It is a fact that none of the patriarchs, tribal eponyms, ‘Judges’ or earliest monarchs has a Yahwistic name. Such names existed (e.g. Joshua, Jonathan the son of Saul), but in a very low percentage, even lower than other names with theophoric elements of Ba’al, El, ‘Anat, Zedek, Shalom, and others. We have reason to believe that the cult of Yahweh became a ‘national’ cult in the kingdom of Judah only between 900–850 (see §6.5) and in the kingdom of Israel between 850–800 (see §5.7)." pg. 76
Israel's History and the History of Israel - Mario Liverani
"The oldest West Semitic attestation of the name is the inscription of the victory stela erected by Mesha, king of Moab, in the 9th century BC. In this inscription, Yahweh is not presented as a Moabite deity, but as the national god of Israelite people. Mesha rather records how he defeated Israel, and plundered the temple of Yahweh, presenting the spoils to his own god, Chemosh. This is an alternate vision of the events described in 2 Kings 3."
Yahweh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Last edited by a moderator:
Just curious as to why you have come to a Christian forum, if you are convinced Jesus is a "false god?"
I have studied archaeology in Seminary, and you are not proving anything to me except that you need a revelation of Jesus Christ, and to turn and repent of your sins.
Praying God leads you to a knowledge of the truth in who he is.
I have studied archaeology in Seminary, and you are not proving anything to me except that you need a revelation of Jesus Christ, and to turn and repent of your sins.
Praying God leads you to a knowledge of the truth in who he is.
C
And I studied physics at culinary school. 
Here's what a real archaeologist's CV looks like.
Prof. Israel Finkelstein - C.v
And here are the findings in his book:
How Archaeology Disproves Biblical History
Any questions?
Here's what a real archaeologist's CV looks like.
Prof. Israel Finkelstein - C.v
And here are the findings in his book:
How Archaeology Disproves Biblical History
Any questions?
C
Are you serious?
You may notice the little numbers on Wiki link to an actual source at the bottom
of the page.
And there's this thing called a "bibliography".
Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible DDD - Google Books
You may notice the little numbers on Wiki link to an actual source at the bottom
of the page.
And there's this thing called a "bibliography".
Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible DDD - Google Books
I see your point. Your saying that there were other gods sense mans beginning. Some favored others and some favored Jehovah which is Yahweh in Hebrew. If I think I understand you correctly, there could have been a time in Man's past history, even leading to our day. Where Before or even after abraham and others when all the tribe from Adam and Eve were lost and at time God did not revile him self to them. To where they may have served both gods at the same time? Which in this case it would be true.
The most prominent of the Canaanite gods was Baal. Each locality in Canaan and in other lands where Baalism existed had its own Baal or, as the name “Baal” signifies, its own “lord,” “master” or “owner.” The local Baal was often given a name denoting his being attached to a specific locality. One example of this is the “Baal of Peor.” This deity took his name from Mount Peor. Although there were many of such local Baals, the Canaanites and neighboring peoples understood that the local Baals were all merely manifestations of the one god Baal.
Ancient texts discovered at Ras Shamra on the Syrian coast reveal that Baalism was a fertility cult centered around agriculture. Baal worshipers attributed the changes in the seasons and their effects to the warring of the deities. They believed that the end of the rainy season and the death of vegetation marked the god Mot’s triumph over Baal, forcing Baal to withdraw to the depths of the earth. But when the rainy season started, Baal worshipers took this to mean that Baal was again alive, his sister Anath having defeated Mot. They thought that Baal's mating with his wife Ashtoreth at this time ensured fertility in crops, flocks and herds for the coming year.
Baal worshipers believed that their engaging in prescribed rituals at their religious festivals would serve to stimulate the gods to follow the same pattern. Hence, to celebrate Baal's awakening to life, to be mated with Ashtoreth, they engaged in sexual orgies of unrestrained debauchery. This was a sort of sympathetic magic, carried out in the hope that the gods would imitate their worshipers and thereby guarantee a fertile and prosperous agricultural year.
Throughout Canaan could be found sanctuaries in honor of Baal, where male and female prostitutes served and priests officiated. Near the altars outside the sanctuaries there were stone pillars, sacred poles (representing the goddess Asherah) and incense stands. Both the sacred pillars and the sacred poles were sex symbols.
References in the Ras Shamra texts and archaeological discoveries show that Baalism was a most degrading form of worship. The goddesses Ashtoreth, Anath and Asherah symbolized both sexual lust and sadistic violence and warfare. Figurines of Ashtoreth found in the Middle East depict her as a nude woman with rudely exaggerated sex organs. In one of the Ras Shamra texts, when Anath's father refuses a request of hers, Anath is portrayed as responding with the words: I'll truly smash your pate, make your gray hair flow with blood, the gray hair of your beard with gore. Of her lust for bloodshed, we read: Much battle she does and beholds, her fighting contemplates Anath: Her liver swells with laughter, her heart fills up with joy, Anath's liver exults, for she plunges knee deep in knights blood, hip deep in the gore of heroes.
To me it sound revolting. Understandably Jehovah God, as a loving Father, wanted to protect his people, the Israelites, from abominable Baal worship. His Law given through Moses made idolatry an offense worthy of death. (Deut. 13:6-10) Jehovah God commanded the Israelites to destroy every appendage of false worship and to keep free from alliances with idolaters. (Deut. 7:2-5) He instructed the Israelites not even to “mention the name of other gods,” that is, not to mention them with worshipful regard or in such a way as to credit any existence to them.Ex. 23:13.
But the Israelites disobeyed and were allured by the worship of Baal, Ashtoreth and Asherah.
Like all other forms of idolatry, Baalism was a work of the “flesh.” (Gal. 5:19-21) As such it appealed to the sinful inclinations of imperfect humans. The Israelites were not immune to the allurements of idolatry and other works of the flesh associated therewith.
Once settled in the Promised Land, the Israelites may have observed that their Canaanite neighbors were having generally good success with the land, perhaps bringing in a fine harvest. Since the Israelites had not had much experience in cultivating the soil, it would not have been unusual for an Israelite to ask a Canaanite about agriculture. As far as the Canaanite was concerned, Baal had to be appeased in order to enjoy a prosperous agricultural year. If the Israelite was disturbed by the suggestion that he should also appease the local Baal, the Canaanite could have calmed his neighbor’s fears by saying that there was no objection to the Israelite's continuing to worship Jehovah. It was merely a matter of acknowledging and pleasing the local Baal also.
Not recognizing that experience and knowledge of the land were the real reasons for whatever success the Canaanites had, an Israelite may have allowed his desire for material gain to become a snare to him. Wanting to get the best yield from his land, he may have justified erecting an altar to Baal in his field and placing a sacred pillar and a sacred pole alongside it. Why he may have reasoned, I'm still worshiping Jehovah.
Another factor responsible for involvement with false gods was marriage to nonworshipers of Jehovah. Even wise King Solomon deviated from true worship because of marrying women who served false gods and goddesses. (1 Ki. 11:1-8) There is no indication that Solomon wholly abandoned the worship of Jehovah and the sacrifices at the temple on Mount Moriah. He apparently practiced a sort of interfaith to please his foreign wives, but this displeased Jehovah.
The unrestrained sexual indulgence associated with false worship ensnared still others. At Shittim, on the plains of Moab, thousands of Israelites yielded to this temptation and engaged in false worship. The Bible reports: “The people started to have immoral relations with the daughters of Moab. And the women came calling the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people began to eat and to bow down to their gods.” Num. 25:1, 2
Then too, the religious festivals, with their extensive feasting and drinking, appealed to lovers of pleasure. At Amos 2:8 we read: “On garments seized as a pledge they stretch themselves out beside every altar; and the wine of those who have been fined they drink at the house of their gods.” Of a religious festival at Shechem, the Bible tells us: “They went out as usual into the field and engaged in gathering the grapes of their vineyards and in treading them and in carrying on a festal exultation, after which they went into the house of their god and ate and drank.” Judg. 9:27.
Furthermore, uncertainty about the future on account of a lack of faith or a guilty conscience toward Jehovah prompted many to seek help through false religion, hoping that they might get some assurance that things would go well for them. A case in point is Israelite King Ahaziah, the son of Ahab and Jezebel. Injured in an accident, he sent messengers to inquire of Baal-zebub the god of Ekron, to find out whether he would recover. 2 Ki. 1:2, 3.
You said:Yahweh became the national god of Israel because he was Saul's favorite. That's not true Jehovah made a covenant with Isreal way before saul came into exsistance through Abraham seed and Moses. God chose Isreal, Isreal did not chose Jehovah. I'm sure he would have abandon them if he didnt promise the seed to come through them. Since Sarah continued to be barren, it appeared that Eliezer the faithful house steward from Damascus would receive Abraham’s inheritance. Nevertheless, Jehovah again reassured Abraham that his own offspring would become uncountable, as the stars of heaven, and so Abraham “put faith in Jehovah; and he proceeded to count it to him as righteousness,” even though this occurred years before Abraham was circumcised. (Ge 15:1-6; Ro 4:9, 10) Jehovah then concluded a formal covenant over animal sacrifices with Abraham, and at the same time, he revealed that Abraham’s offspring would be afflicted for a period of 400 years, even being taken into slavery.Ge 15:7-21
The most prominent of the Canaanite gods was Baal. Each locality in Canaan and in other lands where Baalism existed had its own Baal or, as the name “Baal” signifies, its own “lord,” “master” or “owner.” The local Baal was often given a name denoting his being attached to a specific locality. One example of this is the “Baal of Peor.” This deity took his name from Mount Peor. Although there were many of such local Baals, the Canaanites and neighboring peoples understood that the local Baals were all merely manifestations of the one god Baal.
Ancient texts discovered at Ras Shamra on the Syrian coast reveal that Baalism was a fertility cult centered around agriculture. Baal worshipers attributed the changes in the seasons and their effects to the warring of the deities. They believed that the end of the rainy season and the death of vegetation marked the god Mot’s triumph over Baal, forcing Baal to withdraw to the depths of the earth. But when the rainy season started, Baal worshipers took this to mean that Baal was again alive, his sister Anath having defeated Mot. They thought that Baal's mating with his wife Ashtoreth at this time ensured fertility in crops, flocks and herds for the coming year.
Baal worshipers believed that their engaging in prescribed rituals at their religious festivals would serve to stimulate the gods to follow the same pattern. Hence, to celebrate Baal's awakening to life, to be mated with Ashtoreth, they engaged in sexual orgies of unrestrained debauchery. This was a sort of sympathetic magic, carried out in the hope that the gods would imitate their worshipers and thereby guarantee a fertile and prosperous agricultural year.
Throughout Canaan could be found sanctuaries in honor of Baal, where male and female prostitutes served and priests officiated. Near the altars outside the sanctuaries there were stone pillars, sacred poles (representing the goddess Asherah) and incense stands. Both the sacred pillars and the sacred poles were sex symbols.
References in the Ras Shamra texts and archaeological discoveries show that Baalism was a most degrading form of worship. The goddesses Ashtoreth, Anath and Asherah symbolized both sexual lust and sadistic violence and warfare. Figurines of Ashtoreth found in the Middle East depict her as a nude woman with rudely exaggerated sex organs. In one of the Ras Shamra texts, when Anath's father refuses a request of hers, Anath is portrayed as responding with the words: I'll truly smash your pate, make your gray hair flow with blood, the gray hair of your beard with gore. Of her lust for bloodshed, we read: Much battle she does and beholds, her fighting contemplates Anath: Her liver swells with laughter, her heart fills up with joy, Anath's liver exults, for she plunges knee deep in knights blood, hip deep in the gore of heroes.
To me it sound revolting. Understandably Jehovah God, as a loving Father, wanted to protect his people, the Israelites, from abominable Baal worship. His Law given through Moses made idolatry an offense worthy of death. (Deut. 13:6-10) Jehovah God commanded the Israelites to destroy every appendage of false worship and to keep free from alliances with idolaters. (Deut. 7:2-5) He instructed the Israelites not even to “mention the name of other gods,” that is, not to mention them with worshipful regard or in such a way as to credit any existence to them.Ex. 23:13.
But the Israelites disobeyed and were allured by the worship of Baal, Ashtoreth and Asherah.
Like all other forms of idolatry, Baalism was a work of the “flesh.” (Gal. 5:19-21) As such it appealed to the sinful inclinations of imperfect humans. The Israelites were not immune to the allurements of idolatry and other works of the flesh associated therewith.
Once settled in the Promised Land, the Israelites may have observed that their Canaanite neighbors were having generally good success with the land, perhaps bringing in a fine harvest. Since the Israelites had not had much experience in cultivating the soil, it would not have been unusual for an Israelite to ask a Canaanite about agriculture. As far as the Canaanite was concerned, Baal had to be appeased in order to enjoy a prosperous agricultural year. If the Israelite was disturbed by the suggestion that he should also appease the local Baal, the Canaanite could have calmed his neighbor’s fears by saying that there was no objection to the Israelite's continuing to worship Jehovah. It was merely a matter of acknowledging and pleasing the local Baal also.
Not recognizing that experience and knowledge of the land were the real reasons for whatever success the Canaanites had, an Israelite may have allowed his desire for material gain to become a snare to him. Wanting to get the best yield from his land, he may have justified erecting an altar to Baal in his field and placing a sacred pillar and a sacred pole alongside it. Why he may have reasoned, I'm still worshiping Jehovah.
Another factor responsible for involvement with false gods was marriage to nonworshipers of Jehovah. Even wise King Solomon deviated from true worship because of marrying women who served false gods and goddesses. (1 Ki. 11:1-8) There is no indication that Solomon wholly abandoned the worship of Jehovah and the sacrifices at the temple on Mount Moriah. He apparently practiced a sort of interfaith to please his foreign wives, but this displeased Jehovah.
The unrestrained sexual indulgence associated with false worship ensnared still others. At Shittim, on the plains of Moab, thousands of Israelites yielded to this temptation and engaged in false worship. The Bible reports: “The people started to have immoral relations with the daughters of Moab. And the women came calling the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people began to eat and to bow down to their gods.” Num. 25:1, 2
Then too, the religious festivals, with their extensive feasting and drinking, appealed to lovers of pleasure. At Amos 2:8 we read: “On garments seized as a pledge they stretch themselves out beside every altar; and the wine of those who have been fined they drink at the house of their gods.” Of a religious festival at Shechem, the Bible tells us: “They went out as usual into the field and engaged in gathering the grapes of their vineyards and in treading them and in carrying on a festal exultation, after which they went into the house of their god and ate and drank.” Judg. 9:27.
Furthermore, uncertainty about the future on account of a lack of faith or a guilty conscience toward Jehovah prompted many to seek help through false religion, hoping that they might get some assurance that things would go well for them. A case in point is Israelite King Ahaziah, the son of Ahab and Jezebel. Injured in an accident, he sent messengers to inquire of Baal-zebub the god of Ekron, to find out whether he would recover. 2 Ki. 1:2, 3.
You said:Yahweh became the national god of Israel because he was Saul's favorite. That's not true Jehovah made a covenant with Isreal way before saul came into exsistance through Abraham seed and Moses. God chose Isreal, Isreal did not chose Jehovah. I'm sure he would have abandon them if he didnt promise the seed to come through them. Since Sarah continued to be barren, it appeared that Eliezer the faithful house steward from Damascus would receive Abraham’s inheritance. Nevertheless, Jehovah again reassured Abraham that his own offspring would become uncountable, as the stars of heaven, and so Abraham “put faith in Jehovah; and he proceeded to count it to him as righteousness,” even though this occurred years before Abraham was circumcised. (Ge 15:1-6; Ro 4:9, 10) Jehovah then concluded a formal covenant over animal sacrifices with Abraham, and at the same time, he revealed that Abraham’s offspring would be afflicted for a period of 400 years, even being taken into slavery.Ge 15:7-21
C
Step by step process in how to correctly use Wikipedia in the year 2014:
1. You'll notice the numbers 18 and 37 are clickable below.
"Scholars agree that the archaeological evidence suggests that the Israelites arose peacefully and internally in the highlands of Canaan.[SUP][18][/SUP][SUP]:31[/SUP] In the words of archaeologist William Dever, "most of those who came to call themselves Israelites ... were or had been indigenous Canaanites."[SUP][37]"
[/SUP]Yahweh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2. Once you click on the number it links to the reference at the bottom of the page.
3. Click on the arrow and it takes you straight to the Google book preview! Sometimes
to the exact page! Ta-Dah!
No Other Gods: Emergent Monotheism in Israel - Robert Karl Gnuse - Google Books
Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From? - William G. Dever - Google Books
1. You'll notice the numbers 18 and 37 are clickable below.
"Scholars agree that the archaeological evidence suggests that the Israelites arose peacefully and internally in the highlands of Canaan.[SUP][18][/SUP][SUP]:31[/SUP] In the words of archaeologist William Dever, "most of those who came to call themselves Israelites ... were or had been indigenous Canaanites."[SUP][37]"
[/SUP]Yahweh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2. Once you click on the number it links to the reference at the bottom of the page.
3. Click on the arrow and it takes you straight to the Google book preview! Sometimes
to the exact page! Ta-Dah!
No Other Gods: Emergent Monotheism in Israel - Robert Karl Gnuse - Google Books
Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From? - William G. Dever - Google Books
Last edited by a moderator:
To answer your question:
[h=2]When did God first reveal himself to humans?[/h]After Jesus came down that's when he reviled his father Jehovah to us for we might of herd of him but we did not Know Him.
Look at what Jesus was saying to his father in the heavens while he was praying.
(John 17:20-26) “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me. 24 Father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am, in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. 25 Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you, but I know you, and these have come to know that you sent me. 26 I have made your name known to them and will make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”
[h=2]When did God first reveal himself to humans?[/h]After Jesus came down that's when he reviled his father Jehovah to us for we might of herd of him but we did not Know Him.
Look at what Jesus was saying to his father in the heavens while he was praying.
(John 17:20-26) “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me. 24 Father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am, in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. 25 Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you, but I know you, and these have come to know that you sent me. 26 I have made your name known to them and will make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”
And I studied physics at culinary school.
Here's what a real archaeologist's CV looks like.
Prof. Israel Finkelstein - C.v
And here are the findings in his book:
How Archaeology Disproves Biblical History
Any questions?
Here's what a real archaeologist's CV looks like.
Prof. Israel Finkelstein - C.v
And here are the findings in his book:
How Archaeology Disproves Biblical History
Any questions?
Actually Archaelogical discoveries have more than supported the Bible, they have proved that people in the Bible and events were real.
A good example is that of Belshazar, recorded in Daniel Chapter 5, where Daniel is at the feast and writing appears on the wall, problem is that no records existed of Belshazar being a ruler, the last King was recorded as Nabonidus, which is comfirmed by historians around the time, then we have a mysterious verse which tells how Daniel is made number 3 in power of the kingdom. This was considered to be a work of fiction and ridiculous, until an archaelogical dig in UR uncovered a cylinder written by Nabonidus which contained the following
"As for me, Nabonidus, king of Babylon, save me from sinning against your great godhead and grant me as a present a life long of days, and as for Belshazzar, the eldest son -my offspring- instill reverence for your great godhead in his heart and may he not commit any cultic mistake, may he be sated with a life of plenitude"
This now also makes sense why Daniel was made 3rd most important person in the Kingdom, as Belshazzar was just standing in for his father the King.
Here is a tour by Jay Smith of the British Museum showing how important artefacts prove the Old Testament people and events.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7048B38E18B1D8EC