Conditional Salvation

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elf3

Guest
#281
#281
Butch5 said:
You're welcome to address the arguments I've made.
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Butch5 said:
Elf3,

I do study, that's why I take "All" of the passages the pertain to a subject and I harmonize them. If you notice I took Paul's writings in Romans 3 and 4, and Ephesians 2 and I harmonized them with the writing of James. I didn't sweep one of them aside or try to make one of them say something that he is not saying. I took both writers and harmonized both of their writings. You know you've come to a correct understanding of the Scriptures when everything fits together and harmonizes.

James plainly says that a man is justified by works and not by faith only. However, because so many misunderstand Paul's teaching on works they try to change what James said however they can.

Regarding James, yes he said his faith came out of his works, Young's literal translated uses those very words.

YLT James 2:18 But say may some one, Thou hast faith, and I have works, shew me thy faith out of thy works, and I will shew thee out of my works my faith: (Jam 2:18 YLT)

He uses the Greek word "ek".
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Butch5 hello,
I would first like to address something you say in this response: "if you notice I took Paul's writings in Romans 3 and 4 and Ephesians 2 and I harmonized them with the writings of James". "I took both writers and harmonized both of their writings".

By saying you harmonized both their writings means that you made them work together for your understanding. If you had to harmonize Paul and James writings that would mean you had to "change some things up" to put them into harmony. By you saying this means that you couldn't find harmony between Paul and James for your understanding so you had to "harmonize" them. You had to "make" them work.

God's Word is already in harmony we don't need to harmonize it. And we shouldn't "harmonize" God's word for our own understanding. Proverbs 3:5,6 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths." (NKJV)
 
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newbirth

Banned
#282
Mar 28, 2014
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#282
elf3 said:
Butch5 hello,
I would first like to address something you say in this response: "if you notice I took Paul's writings in Romans 3 and 4 and Ephesians 2 and I harmonized them with the writings of James". "I took both writers and harmonized both of their writings".

By saying you harmonized both their writings means that you made them work together for your understanding. If you had to harmonize Paul and James writings that would mean you had to "change some things up" to put them into harmony. By you saying this means that you couldn't find harmony between Paul and James for your understanding so you had to "harmonize" them. You had to "make" them work.

God's Word is already in harmony we don't need to harmonize it. And we shouldn't "harmonize" God's word for our own understanding. Proverbs 3:5,6 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths." (NKJV)
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someone took your advise and you tell them they should not do what you advised...
The problem is that you are reading James for James as its own entity. You cannot do that. You MUST test scripture against scripture when studying.

What I mean is this..when you study something in James look at what the other books of the Bible say about the same subject. Look at James, Ephesians, Romans, Galatians ect. Ect. To see what they say. The Bible is a whole not parts.

If you take the Bible as parts you will end up with a "parts" belief that WILL contradict itself.
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elf3

Guest
#283
#283
newbirth said:
someone took your advise and you tell them they should not do what you advised...
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Did you read all of the argument as in all of our posts back and forth? Obviously not
 
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elf3

Guest
#284
#284
newbirth said:
someone took your advise and you tell them they should not do what you advised...
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If you read the conversation between butch and I in order and in context you should be able to understand all the comments back and forth.
 
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newbirth

Banned
#285
Mar 28, 2014
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#285
elf3 said:
Did you read all of the argument as in all of our posts back and forth? Obviously not
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what does that have to do with you telling me the way how I should study and him that way is not how he should study...
 
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newbirth

Banned
#286
Mar 28, 2014
4,300
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#286
elf3 said:
If you read the conversation between butch and I in order and in context you should be able to understand all the comments back and forth.
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my comment has nothing to do with the conversation but with your comments as to how one should and should not study
 
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elf3

Guest
#287
#287
newbirth said:
my comment has nothing to do with the conversation but with your comments as to how one should and should not study
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Ok then what's your suggestion on how one should study?
 
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elf3

Guest
#288
#288
newbirth said:
my comment has nothing to do with the conversation but with your comments as to how one should and should not study
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And you might as well tell me what is wrong with my description of how to study?
 
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newbirth

Banned
#289
Mar 28, 2014
4,300
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#289
elf3 said:
And you might as well tell me what is wrong with my description of how to study?
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this you said to me ...
The problem is that you are reading James for James as its own entity. You cannot do that. You MUST test scripture against scripture when studying.

What I mean is this..when you study something in James look at what the other books of the Bible say about the same subject. Look at James, Ephesians, Romans, Galatians ect. Ect. To see what they say. The Bible is a whole not parts.

If you take the Bible as parts you will end up with a "parts" belief that WILL contradict itself.
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then you said this to Butch5....
Butch5 hello,
I would first like to address something you say in this response: "if you notice I took Paul's writings in Romans 3 and 4 and Ephesians 2 and I harmonized them with the writings of James". "I took both writers and harmonized both of their writings".

By saying you harmonized both their writings means that you made them work together for your understanding. If you had to harmonize Paul and James writings that would mean you had to "change some things up" to put them into harmony. By you saying this means that you couldn't find harmony between Paul and James for your understanding so you had to "harmonize" them. You had to "make" them work.

God's Word is already in harmony we don't need to harmonize it. And we shouldn't "harmonize" God's word for our own understanding. Proverbs 3:5,6 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths." (NKJV)
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someone did exactly what you told me to do and you told them they should not do that....
 
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elf3

Guest
#290
#290
newbirth said:
this you said to me ...
then you said this to Butch5.... someone did exactly what you told me to do and you told them they should not do that....
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No, read exactly what he said "I harmonized". The difference is that he made them harmonize. He didn't say they were in harmony but he "harmonized". He had a preconceived idea of what James says and he "harmonized Romans and Ephesians with James". Can you see the difference in what I am saying? The word "i" is the key word in his statement.
 
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newbirth

Banned
#291
Mar 28, 2014
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#291
elf3 said:
No, read exactly what he said "I harmonized". The difference is that he made them harmonize. He didn't say they were in harmony but he "harmonized". He had a preconceived idea of what James says and he "harmonized Romans and Ephesians with James". Can you see the difference in what I am saying? The word "i" is the key word in his statement.
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No what I see is you trying to make someone look as if they are changing the word.....not everyone has the same ability to explain ....do you dispel all truth because someone is not perfect in their explanations ....
 
SeaBass

SeaBass

Banned
#292
Mar 12, 2014
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#292
Jackson123 said:
OH ya but the fall one, welcome to re abide.

The point is only if you abide you will bear fruit. why you abide if you don't have a faith.

So Faith in Jesus is the root of salvation, not work.
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My point was how can a branch but cut off the vine and cast away if the branch were never connected to the vine? So the context shows one can be "of Christ" that is, a branch of the vine and yet still be cast away.
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#293
Oct 13, 2011
4,621
281
83
#293
You must not expect that you will be perfect in "repentance" before you are saved. No Christian can be perfect. "Repentance" is a grace. Some people preach it as a condition of salvation. Condition of nonsense! There are no conditions of salvation. God gives the salvation himself; and he only gives it to those to whom he will. He says, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy "If, then, God has given you the least repentance, if it be sincere repentance, praise him for it, and expect that repentance will grow deeper and deeper as you go further on. Then this remark I think, ought to be applied to all Christians.
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Repentance Unto Life A Sermon (No. 44)

Delivered on Sabbath Morning, September 23, 1855, by the REV. C. H. Spurgeon.
 
SeaBass

SeaBass

Banned
#294
Mar 12, 2014
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#294
mailmandan said:
The sinner must obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"



We are Spirit baptized into the body of Christ, not water baptized. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. How does this happen? Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.



This takes place through faith prior to water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; Romans 4:4-6; Philippians 3:9).
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My point was that 1 Cor 5:21 shows one must be "in Christ". One is baptized into Christ, he puts on Christ, Gal 3:27 so those that obey by being baptized are transferred into Christ where they are then covered by Christ's perfect righteousness.

The bible does not teach the idea that the sinner sits and does nothing while Christ's perfect righteousness is transferred to the sinner. This is a made up idea by those that cling to the man-made idea of faith only in looking for a way to get a man righteous without that man having to any obedient works, any work at all.


1 Cor 1:14,16 and 1 Cor 12;13 are both the ONE baptism of Eph 4:5 which is the human administered water baptism of Christ's great commission...as Paul himself water baptized some of the Corinthians. EPh 4:5 ONE baptism not two.
 
SeaBass

SeaBass

Banned
#295
Mar 12, 2014
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#295
Radius said:
Rom. 3:12 "All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
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James 4:17 "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them"

3 Jn 1:11 "Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God."

2 Tim 3:17 "That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

Titus 1:16 "They profess that they know God; but in works they denyhim, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

Titus 2:14 "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

So man can do good works, as a matter of fact, a man MUST do good works to be of God, a Christian. One without good works is a reprobate.
 
E

elf3

Guest
#296
#296
newbirth said:
No what I see is you trying to make someone look as if they are changing the word.....not everyone has the same ability to explain ....do you dispel all truth because someone is not perfect in their explanations ....
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I have to concede to you there. I cannot argue your point as it is true we are not all able to explain exactly what we want to say or how to say it.

All I am saying is that we cannot just pick and choose verses for what we "want" to believe. Basically we have to go into a study without a preconceived idea and let the Holy Spirit guide us "not on our own understanding".

But at the same time I will stand on Ephesians 2:8,9. Only the merit of Christ, nothing I do. But my faith in God will be seen by the "good works" I do not unto my salvation but for His Glory.
 
SeaBass

SeaBass

Banned
#297
Mar 12, 2014
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#297
tribesman said:
Repentance Unto Life A Sermon (No. 44)

Delivered on Sabbath Morning, September 23, 1855, by the REV. C. H. Spurgeon.







You must not expect that you will be perfect in "repentance" before you are saved. No Christian can be perfect. "Repentance" is a grace. Some people preach it as a condition of salvation. Condition of nonsense! There are no conditions of salvation. God gives the salvation himself; and he only gives it to those to whom he will. He says, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy "If, then, God has given you the least repentance, if it be sincere repentance, praise him for it, and expect that repentance will grow deeper and deeper as you go further on. Then this remark I think, ought to be applied to all Christians.
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Repentance is a condition to be saved for the impenitent are lost, Lk 13:3,5; Rom 2:4,5.


Rom 9:15 does not give the basis as to why God has mercy upon some and not others but that does not mean there is no basis at all.

Jer 18:8,10 shows that repentance is the basis as if God will have mercy or not. Jonah 3, God said He would destroy Nineveh in 40 days, yet Nineveh repented and God saw thier works/repentance " and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Could Spurgeon could not explain why "God repented"?
 
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S

Skinski7

Banned
#298
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#298
SeaBass said:
My point was that 1 Cor 5:21 shows one must be "in Christ". One is baptized into Christ, he puts on Christ, Gal 3:27 so those that obey by being baptized are transferred into Christ where they are then covered by Christ's perfect righteousness.

The bible does not teach the idea that the sinner sits and does nothing while Christ's perfect righteousness is transferred to the sinner. This is a made up idea by those that cling to the man-made idea of faith only in looking for a way to get a man righteous without that man having to any obedient works, any work at all.
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The Bible does not teach that.

Where do you get that teaching from?

Who taught you that anyone gets "covered by Christ's perfect righteousness" whether it through baptism or anything else?

We put on the character of Christ is what "putting on Christ" means. Jesus is not a raincoat.
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#299
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
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#299
SeaBass said:
My point was how can a branch but cut off the vine and cast away if the branch were never connected to the vine? So the context shows one can be "of Christ" that is, a branch of the vine and yet still be cast away.
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Yup, If never connected we can't say it cut off. Some time one pretend to be connected but Jesus said if one connected to the vine, it will bear fruit. By the fruit you tell the tree. But for special occasion if a man die in the same second he have a faith in Jesus, he will go to heaven because the requirement is faith not work.

Work is fruit not requirement, faith is.
 
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newbirth

Banned
#300
Mar 28, 2014
4,300
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#300
elf3 said:
I have to concede to you there. I cannot argue your point as it is true we are not all able to explain exactly what we want to say or how to say it.

All I am saying is that we cannot just pick and choose verses for what we "want" to believe. Basically we have to go into a study without a preconceived idea and let the Holy Spirit guide us "not on our own understanding".

But at the same time I will stand on Ephesians 2:8,9. Only the merit of Christ, nothing I do. But my faith in God will be seen by the "good works" I do not unto my salvation but for His Glory.
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I hear you....
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
 
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