Is the mark going to come from Islam?

[Calminian]

No, Jesus died for all past and present. We all receive it by Gods grace, David was no different. We can do nothing to merit Gods salvation, never have been able to in history. David was saved and loved by God the same way and reasons we are, Gods grace alone. He loves us because He loves us. He saves us because He wants to, not because we do something to deserve it. I agree we are all sinners, yet in MY experience, after regeneration we can't commit the same sin over and over, the Spirit inside won't allow us to.

Actually He died for past present and future, and thank God for that.

Over and over can mean twice. You're saying you've never committed the same sin twice. If true, you're more righteous than me. I'm guilting of stumbling in the same area from time to time.

I think that kind of rules out a Christian army going to war to kill over and over. Jesus never calls us to kill under and circumstance.....

Well this gets into the area of self-defense and pacifism, and I disagree with this as well, though it's a completely different topic. I think there is such a thing as justified killing and lawful killing which are not sins.

That said, I also believe that christians can stumble and commit murder, even after they've been saved. I don't think a saved christian would do this habitually, but I can see it happening. It happened with David.

It shouldn't! We have the power to overcome such an urge, but it can happen. And as you said, Christ died for that sin.

I would say the true mark of a believer is struggle with sin, not necessarily victory over sin. Paul's anguish over his sin in Romans 7 seems to be the true attitude of a redeemed believer. If and one has committed the sin of murder, that sin should torment them for the rest of their lives. But I can't go so far as to say that no christian can commit the sin of murder.

 

[Jimbone]

Over and over can mean twice. You're saying you've never committed the same sin twice. If true, you're more righteous than me. I'm guilting of stumbling in the same area from time to time.



Well this gets in the the area of self-defense and pacifism, and I disagree with this as well, though it's a completely different topic. I think there is justified killing and lawful killing that are not sins.

That said, I also believe that christians can stumble and commit murder, even after they've been saved. I don't think a saved christian would do this habitually, but I can see it happening. It happened with David.

It shouldn't! We have the power to overcome such an urge, but it can happen. And as you said, Christ died for that sin.

I would say the true mark of a believer is struggle with sin, not necessarily victory over sin. Paul's anguish over his sin in Romans 7 seems to be the true attitude of a redeemed believer. If and one has committed the sin of murder, that sin should torment them for the rest of their lives. But I can't go so far as to say that no christian can commit the sin of murder.

I'm not trying to say that a Christian can't comment the same sin twice, although I do see how you can draw that from my comments. I am just saying a Christian has the Holy Spirit in them convicting them of sin as it's committed. Now can a Christian technically choose to keep doing the same sin while ignoring the very voice of God telling them not to, after that God just saved and regenerated you? I don't really know as I can only speak for myself, but I can't go against the Spirit in regards to looking at porn, I have no clue how I (or anyone) could murder with His Spirit in us telling us not to. If you want to mock me by saying that this is me proclaiming myself to be sinless then go right ahead. If you have no clue about how the Spirit guides me then you may want to talk to God about that. All those with His Spirit inside will understand what I'm talking about here. I do say you CANNOT be reborn and live in the same sin as before. My God is powerful enough to CHANGE men completely, and is the ONLY chance us corrupt men have to resist sin at all. I don't know about a weak God we just say we believe in and are saved and free to live just as we were before. I abhor this teaching and feel it is a deception of the Satan (just to be clear I am not suggesting this is what you were saying), if the God I know comes into you, you change for the better period. You don't just go around trying to justify worldly ways, like war and killing.

 

[Calminian]

I'm not trying to say that a Christian can't comment the same sin twice, although I do see how you can draw that from my comments. I am just saying a Christian has the Holy Spirit in them convicting them of sin as it's committed. Now can a Christian technically choose to keep doing the same sin while ignoring the very voice of God telling them not to, after that God just saved and regenerated you? I don't really know as I can only speak for myself, but I can't go against the Spirit in regards to looking at porn, I have no clue how I (or anyone) could murder with His Spirit in us telling us not to. If you want to mock me by saying that this is me proclaiming myself to be sinless then go right ahead.

Sorry, JB, I'm looking through my comments, and never felt I mocked you. I'm merely asking you questions, and challenging our claims. I think we can challenge one another without being accused of mocking.

If you have no clue about how the Spirit guides me then you may want to talk to God about that. All those with His Spirit inside will understand what I'm talking about here.

Well, I'm not agreeing with what you're saying. I guess this means in your view i don't have the Spirit. That's quite a rigid stance to take.

I do say you CANNOT be reborn and live in the same sin as before.

With this I agree. I believe in what's often referred to as lordship salvation.

My God is powerful enough to CHANGE men completely, and is the ONLY chance us corrupt men have to resist sin at all. I don't know about a weak God we just say we believe in and are saved and free to live just as we were before. I abhor this teaching and feel it is a deception of the Satan (just to be clear I am not suggesting this is what you were saying), if the God I know comes into you, you change for the better period. You don't just go around trying to justify worldly ways, like war and killing.

With what teaching do you abhor? Paul's teaching in Romans 7?? Sounds to me brother, you've gotten involved in some extreme legalism. I too believe faith without works is dead. I too believe that God changes believers and they cannot return to what they were.

I just won't go so far as to say that true believers never sin or never sin the same sin twice. Paul didn't believe this, nor did John or any other biblical writer. I don't believe it either. Sorry if that condemns me in your eyes.

also it appears you're embracing the sin of pacifism, which I see as extremely problematic. I don't doubt your salvation, but you're definitely confused in that area.

 

[Brainfreeze]

Well you will see, if you read my last comment better you will see where I made at least 1 exception to that. If you can sit there and claim to be Christian (as in having the true God living in you as the Holy Spirit forever changing you) and say it is possible for true Christians to go out on a campaign aimed to kill, then I say you do not know the same Spirit I do, because any real Christian is going to go to Him in prayer before any major decision, and our God says love and forgive, not kill ever. vengeance is the Lords, not ours. I stick by my comment 100% and don't care what some "men" said a long time ago, no matter what their names are, so yes I may very well be "disqualifying a lot of past Christians", Sorry truth doesn't change because we don't agree with it, or we can't make logical sense of it. I mean something as simple as

MATTHEW 7-13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Yet the biggest Church system in the world claims to be the one true church, but if the gates so narrow how can so many be heading to life? Wouldn't that make Jesus a liar if "they" are right?

"any Christian is capable of any sin"
Agreed, but not the same sin over, and over, and over. Sorry but the Spirit that fills me does not allow me to do that.

Were they all just professing phonies? It's a tough one. King David was guilty of both adultery and murder and yet was described as a man after God's own heart

I would say there were some deceived rather than call them phoney, but they were living in the world just as we are, they saw the things around them as normal just as we do. Maybe this way their "conforming to the world", at that time. I promise Jesus never tells us to kill, dispute that. I think He said "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” As far as King David goes, it was Gods grace that he received, just like us, He did nothing to merit Gods favor, and he no doubt sinned. I'm not really seeing your point. We are allowed to kill? God didn't tell him to, David sinned against God when he did those things. Again point?

I agree with everything Jim is saying and to add, everyone loves to justify killing through David, but does everyone forget David lost a son? He had to burry the kings son, David went through a lot of hardship, but never cursed or turned away that God is just that, God. God can make life and take life. Just because David made a sin, doesn't mean we want to, unless we want more pain headed our way. Don't just read pieces of a story but try to understand the whole situation.

 

[Jimbone]

"Sorry, JB, I'm looking through my comments, and never felt I mocked you. I'm merely asking you questions, and challenging our claims. I think we can challenge one another without being accused of mocking. "

Well sorry but I did.

"those with His Spirit inside will understand what I'm talking about here.Well, I'm not agreeing with what you're saying. I guess this means in your view i don't have the Spirit. That's quite a rigid stance to take. "

That could be, I can't tell you.

"With what teaching do you abhor? Paul's teaching in Romans 7?? Sounds to me brother, you've gotten involved in some extreme legalism. I too believe faith without works is dead. I too believe that God changes believers and they cannot return to what they were.

I just won't go so far as to say that true believers never sin or never sin the same sin twice. Paul didn't believe this, nor did John or any other biblical writer. I don't believe it either. Sorry if that condemns me in your eyes.

also it appears you're embracing the sin of pacifism, which I see as extremely problematic. I don't doubt your salvation, but you're definitely confused in that area."

Nope I don't disagree with a word Paul wrote, I just don't see it to mean what you do obviously. Also saying twice was way too extreme, but in the case of killing I think it could stand, but point taken there.


Paul tells me, and I also believe when he writes this

2 Cor. 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

And,

Galatians 5:16-18
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

And,

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

And this is John not Paul, but still what I’m talking about,

1 John 3:4-9
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

Look man I think this is the part were I can not see this conversation going anywhere as we are not talking about the same God, so I will dust off my shoes and won't be responding to your next defense of Christians sinning after salvation excuses. If that's how you really feel I pray you are assured by the same God that's changed my whole attitude towards sin, all glory to Him, because I loved it until He changed me. I still find sin in almost everything I do, I am not claiming any kind of perfection, but through His Spirit once He's pointed it out to me, in pure gratitude for the whole eternal life thing, I don't continue to do it over and over, and if it takes a long time to beat that particular sin, I can never commit it without knowing I am and felling guilt for it. See what I'm saying? I'm not saying that the Holy Spirit keeps you from sinning, I'm only saying that it lets you know each time you commit that particular sin that it's a slap to Jesus face. How many times can a Christian slap Jesus in the face knowingly, becomes the real question? Care to answer that? If that's not the whole Spirit you know brother you very well might want to think on this more "Well, I'm not agreeing with what you're saying. I guess this means in your view i don't have the Spirit. That's quite a rigid stance to take. " That's the stand He called us to make my brother.

 

[Jimbone]

LOL I just realized you through Romans 7 out there and forgot what he said in 6.
Romans 6 King James Version (KJV)6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For he that is dead is freed from sin.

This sums up exactly what I meant the whole time, read into it how you will.

 

[Calminian]

I agree with everything Jim is saying and to add, everyone loves to justify killing through David, but does everyone forget David lost a son? He had to burry the kings son, David went through a lot of hardship, but never cursed or turned away that God is just that, God. God can make life and take life. Just because David made a sin, doesn't mean we want to, unless we want more pain headed our way. Don't just read pieces of a story but try to understand the whole situation.

Right but did he lose his salvation? No one is saying that sin doesn't have terrible costs in this life. The question is, can a christian commit the sin of murder? I think he can.

And who said anything about wanting to? I certainly don't want to. I'm just not buying the idea that it is impossible for a saved person to do this.

 

[Jimbone]

Right but did he lose his salvation? No one is saying that sin doesn't have terrible costs in this life. The question is, can a christian commit the sin of murder? I think he can.

And who said anything about wanting to? I certainly don't want to. I'm just not buying the idea that it is impossible for a saved person to do this.

That's a straw man, I never said a Christian can't murder, here's a quote from my very first commit "I can assure you no person truly reborn in the Holy Spirit through Christ could ever kill unless defending family from an attack in an EXTREME case to save another", I would still call this a murder, even in defense. Killing in defense and going off to war to kill many are two different things, and to me not enough to justify living in perpetual sin. When God is in you He's not going to let you just "Keep on keeping on", with sin (to the best of our flawed and feeble ability, and even then it's only through his power we can even fight it).

 

[Calminian]

....Nope I don't disagree with a word Paul wrote, I just don't see it to mean what you do obviously. Also saying twice was way too extreme, but in the case of killing I think it could stand, but point taken there.

What point exactly are you conceding? What sins do you think a christian can commit and which ones do you think he cannot commit? I'd like to know how you categorize these, and the biblical support you can offer.

Paul tells me, and I also believe when he writes this

2 Cor. 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

And of course this is true. The question then becomes, do christians continue in their sin after they are saved? Seems you're saying no, and if so, you've fallen into some terrible error. The new creation definitely improves, and turns to God and away from sin, but does he ever stumble? Does he ever fall into sin ever? You say no, I say yes, and I'm among those who stumble. If you think you're perfect, you have a very different gospel than I do.

1 John 3:4-9
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

Yes, a practice of sinning. A continual habitual practice of sin must stop in every believer. The true christian no longer practices his sinful ways. But that's much different from what you're saying, that a christian never sins.

Seems we're going in circles, but I hope this at least clarifies where I'm coming from. I know you've branded me a non-believer since I don't accept this doctrine of perfected saints, but this is a heresy that's been shot down by the church all throughout history. I'm fearful for you if you bought into it.

 

[Calminian]

That's a straw man, I never said a Christian can't murder, here's a quote from my very first commit "I can assure you no person truly reborn in the Holy Spirit through Christ could ever kill unless defending family from an attack in an EXTREME case to save another", I would still call this a murder, even in defense. Killing in defense and going off to war to kill many are two different things, and to me not enough to justify living in perpetual sin. When God is in you He's not going to let you just "Keep on keeping on", with sin (to the best of our flawed and feeble ability, and even then it's only through his power we can even fight it).

No, killing in defense is not murder. Murder is unjustified killing. You are saying that a saved christian cannot commit certain sins but can commit others. I'm asking you to clarify where you got this from.

I say that a saved christian is capable of any sin. Habitually, he no longer practices sins on an ongoing basis, but he can still slip up from time to time. It's even possible for him to murder. Now the true christian would repent like David and for certain suffer consequences, but Jesus died for all sins, not just some.

Also, this idea that christens can't join the army and go to war and fight is also bunk, along with the silly notion that christians can't be police officers. This is pacifist nonsense which comes from false religions. Look at Abraham's rescue of his nephew Lot. Was Abraham an unbeliever? For he lead 400 fighting men to slaughter the armies of Chedorlaomer and rescue Lot. Was this a grievous sin in God's eyes? Not even close. Abraham was a righteous man and the father of our faith.

Honestly, JB I don't know where you're getting this stuff. Is there a particular preacher or teacher you're herding this stuff from?

 

[Brainfreeze]

What point exactly are you conceding? What sins do you think a christian can commit and which ones do you think he cannot commit? I'd like to know how you categorize these, and the biblical support you can offer.



And of course this is true. The question then becomes, do christians continue in their sin after they are saved? Seems you're saying no, and if so, you've fallen into some terrible error. The new creation definitely improves, and turns to God and away from sin, but does he ever stumble? Does he ever fall into sin ever? You say no, I say yes, and I'm among those who stumble. If you think you're perfect, you have a very different gospel than I do.



Yes, a practice of sinning. A continual habitual practice of sin must stop in every believer. The true christian no longer practices his sinful ways. But that's much different from what you're saying, that a christian never sins.

Seems we're going in circles, but I hope this at least clarifies where I'm coming from. I know you've branded me a non-believer since I don't accept this doctrine of perfected saints, but this is a heresy that's been shot down by the church all throughout history. I'm fearful for you if you bought into it.

ok, peter denied Jesus 3x just like Jesus said he would, this is a man that seen Jesus walk on water and Jesus LET HIM WALK ON WATER, still denied Jesus, till he couldn't anymore,when he heard the rooster crow as Jesus said it would when it did. We can go on trying to deny and keep on with what we want to believe, but real christians know better, the spirit discerns that it's wrong as Jim is saying, so yes, it's as a slap in the face to our Father. The worse the sin, the worse it can be for us and anyone we love. This is why we fear God, to lead us out of temptation of sin, I still get angry sometimes, my life can be difficult and I train myself to be calm as Jesus would want me that way, I'm trying to perfect this that I never get angry, but there's a big leap between getting angry and murder.

 

[Brainfreeze]

Killing and murder are different, way different, can mean a life in prison, or 2 years, like vehicle homicide or planning out a killing for whatever reason, it's the intent...why we have first degree, 2nd and so fourth. Don't think God doesn't know our heart and know what we our up to, and our intent, He knows everything.

 

[Brainfreeze]

By the way, David is our elder to God. We are nothing like David, so to compare him to everyday christians, is a bad idea in itself. God made this man a king, with decisions of a king in his time, that's all David knew was blood shed, (killing a giant at a very young age). This is why God had Solomon build the temple, all of the blood David had shed, God didn't want David building it.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2IAouMHeMQ

Thoughts...

Whatever, whoever among men today is nothing compared to the combined attack of the Beast at the last. IS is just one little force under the Antichrist, through the Beast, backed up by the False Prophet. We have not seen anything quite as serious as what Satan has planned for Earth. That vile mark in Revelation will come from the source authority of evil, Satan. It will be enforced by the principalities under him.

Keep your tongue, Christians. Whatever words you utter today will be counted as prophecy over yourself. We will each be accountable for what our mouth says, revealing what's in our heart. Down deep inside each of us, the children of God, we know how it all ends. Speak that end. We win! Decline that evil mark that would supposedly guarantee comfort of your belly. Put all your reliance upon the promise of Christ. Fear not!

 

[Calminian]

ok, peter denied Jesus 3x just like Jesus said he would, this is a man that seen Jesus walk on water and Jesus LET HIM WALK ON WATER, still denied Jesus, till he couldn't anymore,when he heard the rooster crow as Jesus said it would when it did. We can go on trying to deny and keep on with what we want to believe, but real christians know better, the spirit discerns that it's wrong as Jim is saying, so yes, it's as a slap in the face to our Father. The worse the sin, the worse it can be for us and anyone we love. This is why we fear God, to lead us out of temptation of sin, I still get angry sometimes, my life can be difficult and I train myself to be calm as Jesus would want me that way, I'm trying to perfect this that I never get angry, but there's a big leap between getting angry and murder.

So then you agree with me, that we shouldn't sin but sometimes do. We should feel guilt, but sometimes we fall into sin, and yet God brings us back to repentance as his children.

If you agree with that, you disagree with Jim who says christians never fall into sin, and can always resist certain sins. That's the only part I'm disagreeing with him about. I agree the Spirit convicts the christian of sin and cause the christian to produce fruit. But I can't go so far as to say the christian never sins. That's where I'm disagreeing with Jim.

 

[Brainfreeze]

No, I'm saying don't compare David to everyday christians, and yes, Jim is right, that we have power over sin. Our eyes are open and now we see, so as Jim was saying, "we know better, the spirit discerns this" he's right. Of course we can do whatever we want, we will have free will till death, kind of does away with that once saved always saved kind of thinking. We can't just go on sinning and keep falling, God will harden our heart, blind us again in a sense, and we could be lost to damnation for eternity. As I've said in a few other threads, it's a thin line we walk.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Our God is a GOOD God. He is not involved in what the world (cosmos) system chooses. Choosing an evil (bad) mark or way is their choice. I have chosen the Lord Jesus, wanting His mark on me. I will be secure no matter what happens in the world. I will fear no evil. I will not shrink from His commandments to spread His gospel (GOOD news) to all who would hear it.

Meanwhile, prepare your friends, all you know, for that future event, the time to commit being NOW. TODAY is the day of salvation, for when this present age of grace ends, no person will find an open door of rescue afterwards.

I like a tale about a man who stayed home in spite of flood warnings. He ended up on his home roof, hoping for rescue from God. A boat came to him, the operators saying "get aboard, we have come for you". The desperate man replied "I await the Lord", so the rescue boat went on without him. A helicopter landed on the roof, the victim refusing to board. "I am waiting on the Lord to rescue me!" The helicopter left without him. The man drowned in the flood. He woke up asking "God, why didn't YOU rescue me?" St. Peter replied 'We sent the boat, then the helicopter, and you refused all, then perished.'

Rescue advice from Heaven indicates don't take that mark of the beast to prolong your very few remaining days on earth. Trust the LORD Jesus your Christ sent to save you. It is not about what God will do in those last days for you, but what He has already provided for each of us by His grace, enabled by our own faith. Faith will not rest upon any mark until the time of mark versus mark. Avoid such a judgment predicament in the future. Believe on Jesus today.

 

[Brainfreeze]

If we want to get to heaven we have to learn to literally follow Jesus and His path of perfection, the Holy Spirit gives us the tools to do such a thing. We will sometimes resort back to a worldly way, but the Spirit will correct that. Example, I used to listen to real hard gangsta rap, when I got saved I knew it wasn't right to listen to it anymore, it would corrupt my heart. I didn't know about everyday stuff on radio though, a lot of it seemed harmless. God straightened that out when I pulled up to a gas station, seen a older man with long hair posting or leaning on side of his van, playing hard (radio) rocknroll, I felt a little discomfort. The Spirit was showing me, this is the uncomfortableness your bringing others, I stopped immediately. No more rap for me, period. This is how the Spirit works.

 

[Calminian]

No, I'm saying don't compare David to everyday christians, and yes, Jim is right, that we have power over sin.

But this was my point that we have the power to overcome sin.

Our eyes are open and now we see, so as Jim was saying, "we know better, the spirit discerns this" he's right. Of course we can do whatever we want, we will have free will till death, kind of does away with that once saved always saved kind of thinking. We can't just go on sinning and keep falling, God will harden our heart, blind us again in a sense, and we could be lost to damnation for eternity. As I've said in a few other threads, it's a thin line we walk.

But do you agree with him that the true believer doesn't sin anymore? This seems to be a point of disagreement between you two.

also, how much sin do we commit before we lose out salvation? How much works do we need to do to sustain out salvation?

 

[Calminian]

If we want to get to heaven we have to learn to literally follow Jesus and His path of perfection, the Holy Spirit gives us the tools to do such a thing. We will sometimes resort back to a worldly way, but the Spirit will correct that. ....

BF, you're contradicting yourself. I thought you said the christian can keep sinning even to the point he loses his salvation. Now you're saying the christian can't go on sinning, that the Spirit will intervene and prevent him from doing so. Thus the christian cannot lose his salvation. So which is it?