In context: Romans 4:4-5

[Jackson123]

Do you understand a conditional statement? The above is as condition that IF one is abiding, one will bear fruit. Man's problem is that it is very difficult to abide faithfully.

O ya, if not abide than not going to bear the fruit.

so fruit is product of abide, not requirement of salvation.

If the fruit/work is requirement of salvation than no body save.

This is the order.

Faith in Jesus, because you have faith than you abide than bear the fruit.

Catholic order is:

Faith and fruit than save.

How can you bear the fruit before save, when branch can't bear the fruit of itself.

 

[Jackson123]

so you say you believe and accept and you don't die the same second you ready to go to heaven then you don't need to bear fruit you can go just as you are...there is no need to abide... the one who died did nothing so why should you have to do anything...you both meet the same requirements....faith alone....It cannot be faith alone for him and faith with works for you....what is the purpose of abide and bear fruit since you are saved already...and meet all the necessary requirement?
you reject scripture and hold on to doctrine of man...and fail to obey the word of God

As son as you decide to have a faith in Him, than you follow His command. And his command is to abide in Him.

Than naturally you bear the fruit. It not requirement, if you die in the same second you decide to have a faith in Him you go to heaven, you will abide in Him there. And you will get benefit there as a happy person with Jesus.

If you asking about purpose, abide is make you bear the fruit of product of your faith.

You said it is requirement for salvation?

Requirement for enter to senior high school is pass the test. Mean you have to pass the test first before accepted as senior high student.

In this analogy, pass the test represent work.

Senior high represent salvation.

You have to pass the test first before accepted.

You have to do god work/bear the fruit first before salvation.

Jesus said branch can't bear the fruit of it self.

Than no body save under catholic doctrine.

Faith, produce salvation and good work. The credit is belong to Him alone.


Faith + work = salvation, is impossible since work come after faith/abide.

The credit half belong to work not to Jesus, SYSTEMATICALLY REPLACE JESUS.

 

[Jackson123]

You have a very strange understanding. Faith is NOT a one time event. It is NOT that one believes and everything else is simply filler that follows.
There is no such thing as faith alone. Faith alone is a journey to hell. Faith is continuous, if it stops, one cannot be saved.

Faith is the framework and everything else is content. Faith does NOT enter one into Christ. Faith simply justifies a person, puts a person into a correct alignment. Repentance is a necessity, baptism is the ONLY way one enters into Christ. Works of righteousness maintains the faith, no works, no faith, one is no longer abiding in Christ. Sin separates man from Christ and only confession of those sins keeps one in Christ. All these actions are initiated by man. God, nor the Holy Spirit, does any work for you. You are responsible for your faith, your faithfulness. The Holy Spirit stands at the door and knocks, He will not enter unless you open the door. A person can quench the Holy Spirit and leave the fold at his own choosing. God does not compel you to enter or to remain.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

In this verse, what do you think a man that worketh not/not work but have a faith in Him. What his faith counted for?

Is he save? is he go to hell?

 

[Cassian]

O ya, if not abide than not going to bear the fruit.

so fruit is product of abide, not requirement of salvation.

If the fruit/work is requirement of salvation than no body save.

This is the order.

Faith in Jesus, because you have faith than you abide than bear the fruit.

Catholic order is:

Faith and fruit than save.

How can you bear the fruit before save, when branch can't bear the fruit of itself.

Fruit is product of faith. If faith is the requirement to be saved and faith must have works to be valid, then works save.

Your analysis of Catholic is also incorrect. Here again you are assuming one is saved upon an initial belief. At best it is a beginning, and one does not possess salvation until one is baptized. Baptism is entrance into Christ. Having entered and possessing salvation does not mean one will inherit the promise of eternal life. That faith and the evidence, (works) must be continuous. If either stops one is not being saved. That is the scriptural sequence. One can ONLY inherit salvation at the end, not at any time in between. As long as man has life and exists in this sinful world, departing from the fold is an ever present danger.

 

[Cassian]

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

In this verse, what do you think a man that worketh not/not work but have a faith in Him. What his faith counted for?

Is he save? is he go to hell?

Again, justification is NOT salvation. Justification is NOT attaining eternal life.

One who is justified is NOT saved, but only put into a correct relationship. Anyone can go to hell, even those that possessed salvation at one time. The point of being saved is to be and remain faithful to the end. One needs to inherit the promises by remaining faithful.

We are justified by faith when we believe that Christ saved us from death and sin. Christ already has done the work through His Incarnationkl death and resurrection. This is the work that we cannot do to save ourselves. But to attain eternal life is all work. We were created to work and the works created for us to do. Eph 2:10

 

[Elin]

Again, justification is NOT salvation. Justification is NOT attaining eternal life.

Justification is God's declaration of "not guilty," rightwise/in right standing with him,
through grace by faith in Jesus Christ, which saves from God's wrath (Ro 5:9; 1Th 5:9) on their guilt.

In the NT, justification is salvation from God's wrath and eternal death, and into eternal life.

 

[Elin]

If faith is dead without fruit, then the fruit is mandatory in order to make faith valid. There is no other way to state it. If you like the word necessary better than use it.

Secondly, there is no such thing as natural happening in a person because he has faith. It takes effort and focus to be faithful. which is why it is called "working out one's salvation".

It's called "working out" what God has already "worked within."

 

[Elin]

I am talking about Eph 2:10 that requires Christians to do good works. God has made it impossible for one to be a Christian yet not do good works.

The good works of a Christian can be built with wood, hay and stubble, which will be burned up
and he will lose his conditional reward in heaven, although he will not lose his unconditional salvation (1Co 3:12-15).

 

[Elin]

Rom 4:5 God justifieth the ungodly
Ex 23:7 God will not justify the wicked
Contradiction?

Only if you don't understand the Scriptures, and set them against themselves.

 

[Elin]

You have a very strange understanding. Faith is NOT a one time event. It is NOT that one believes and everything else is simply filler that follows.
There is no such thing as faith alone.

You are confusing salvation by "faith not works,"

with "faith without works."

They are two entirely different things.

 

[SeaBass]

Only if you don't understand the Scriptures, and set them against themselves.

Rom 4:5 God justifieth the ungodly
Ex 23:7 God will not justify the wicked
Contradiction?

If not a contradiction, then explain why it's not a contradiction.

 

[SeaBass]

The good works of a Christian can be built with wood, hay and stubble, which will be burned up
and he will lose his conditional reward in heaven, although he will not lose his unconditional salvation (1Co 3:12-15).

Eph 2:10 no way one can be a Christian and saved yet NOT do good works. So good works are a necessity for those that are Christians. God before ordained Christians walk in good works. Who here can undo, change what God before ordained?

 

[Elin]

Fruit is product of faith. If faith is the requirement to be saved and faith must have works to be valid, then
works save.

You are confusing salvation by "faith not works"

with "faith without works."

They are two entirely different things.

 

[Elin]

Rom 4:5 God justifieth the ungodly
Ex 23:7 God will not justify the wicked
Contradiction?

If not a contradiction, then explain why it's not a contradiction.

When you tell me if you think the word of God contradicts itself, or not.

 

[Elin]

Eph 2:10 no way one can be a Christian and saved yet NOT do good works. So good works are a necessity for those that are Christians. God before ordained Christians walk in good works. Who here can undo, change what God before ordained?

So, do you believe 1Co 3:12-15?

 

[newbirth]

You are confusing salvation by "faith not works,"

with "faith without works."

They are two entirely different things.

Ephesians 4:4-6English Standard Version (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— [SUP]5 [/SUP]one Lord, one faith, one baptism, [SUP]6 [/SUP]one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

 

[SeaBass]

So, do you believe 1Co 3:12-15?

How does 1 Cor 3:12-15 undo the fact that God before ordained Christians to walk in good works (Eph 2:10) thereby making it IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to become and Christian and be saved WITHOUT doing good works?

Can "Joe" become a Christian and not do any good works as a Christian and yet still be saved anyway?

 

[Jackson123]

Fruit is product of faith. If faith is the requirement to be saved and faith must have works to be valid, then works save.

Your analysis of Catholic is also incorrect. Here again you are assuming one is saved upon an initial belief. At best it is a beginning, and one does not possess salvation until one is baptized. Baptism is entrance into Christ. Having entered and possessing salvation does not mean one will inherit the promise of eternal life. That faith and the evidence, (works) must be continuous. If either stops one is not being saved. That is the scriptural sequence. One can ONLY inherit salvation at the end, not at any time in between. As long as man has life and exists in this sinful world, departing from the fold is an ever present danger.

1. You seem to agree that fruit is product of faith

2. you seem to agree that faith is requirement to be save.

3 You said faith must have work to be valid. On this, I have question for you. how about if one have a faith and die in the same second.

4. Don't you believe when you go to ritual water baptism you sin all you past was forgiven ? mean if in that very second you die, you go to heaven pass the purgatory?

 

[Jackson123]

Again, justification is NOT salvation. Justification is NOT attaining eternal life.

One who is justified is NOT saved, but only put into a correct relationship. Anyone can go to hell, even those that possessed salvation at one time. The point of being saved is to be and remain faithful to the end. One needs to inherit the promises by remaining faithful.

We are justified by faith when we believe that Christ saved us from death and sin. Christ already has done the work through His Incarnationkl death and resurrection. This is the work that we cannot do to save ourselves. But to attain eternal life is all work. We were created to work and the works created for us to do. Eph 2:10

I am not very sure what do you mean by red sentence.

 

[Cassian]

Justification is God's declaration of "not guilty," rightwise/in right standing with him,
through grace by faith in Jesus Christ, which saves from God's wrath (Ro 5:9; 1Th 5:9) on their guilt.

In the NT, justification is salvation from God's wrath and eternal death, and into eternal life.

It does mean to make righteous or to put a person in a right standing with God. But there is no "not guilty" included. That is the Anselmian theory not scripture. NOT GUILTY will result upon one's repentance but only for past sins.

Rom 5:9 is not addressing believers in the first part, but Christ's work of reconciling the world or redeeming all sinners. That last phrase is what Christ reconciliation provides and that is through faith we can be saved through His life.

I Thes 5:9 also has nothing to say about NOT GUILTY. It states that Christ's work makes it possible for a person to be saved by His life which we do by ands through faith. Every time we confess our sins, we are declared NOT GUILTY, That is not a static or permanent status in any believers life.