Baptism symbol only ?

PACEMAKER · Oct 28, 2014

Question: "Does John 3:5 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?"

As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation isby grace through faith in Jesus Christ,not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9).So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that “water baptism”, or any other act,is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation.

If “being born of water and the Spirit” is not referring

to “water baptism, “

then what does it mean?

Traditionally, there have been two interpretations of this phrase. The first is that being “born of water” is being used by Jesus to refer to natural birth
(with water referring to the amniotic fluid that surrounds the baby in the womb)
and that being born of the “Spirit” indicates spiritual birth.

While that is certainly a possible interpretation of the term “born of water” and would seem to fit the context of Nicodemus’ question about how a man could be born “when he is old,”
it is not the best interpretation given the context of this passage.
After all, Jesus was not talking about the difference between natural birth and spiritual birth.

What He was doing was explaining to Nicodemus his need to be “born from above” or “born again.”

The second common interpretation of this passage
and the one that best fits the overall context,

not only of this passage but of the Bible as a whole,
is the one that sees the phrase “born of water and the Spirit”
as both describing different aspects of the same spiritual birth,
or of what it means to be “born again” or “born from above.”

So, when Jesus told Nicodemus that he must “be born of water and the Spirit,”
He was not referring to literal water
(i.e. baptism or the amniotic fluid in the womb),

but was referring to the need for spiritual cleansing or renewal.

Throughout the Old Testament (Psalm 51:2,7; Ezekiel 36:25) and the New Testament
(John 13:10; 15:3; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Hebrews 10:22),
water is often used figuratively of spiritual cleansing or regeneration
that is brought forth by the Holy Spirit,

through the Word of God, at the moment of salvation (Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5).

The Barclay Daily Study Bible describes this concept in this way:
“There are two thoughts here.
Water is the symbol of cleansing. When Jesus takes possession of our lives,

when we love Him with all our heart,
the sins of the past are forgiven and forgotten.
The Spirit is the symbol of power.
When Jesus takes possession of our lives it is not only that
the past is forgotten and forgiven;

if that were all, we might well proceed to make the same mess of life all over again;
but into life there enters a new power which enables us to be what by ourselves
we could never be and to do what by ourselves we could never do.

Water and the Spirit stand for the cleansing and the strengthening power of Christ,

which wipes out the past and gives victory in the future.”Therefore, the “water” mentioned in this verse is not literal physical water
but rather the “living water”

Jesus promised the woman at the well in John 4:10
and the people in Jerusalem in John 7:37-39.

It is the inward purification and renewal produced
by the Holy Spirit that brings forth spiritual life to a dead sinner
(Ezekiel 36:25-27; Titus 3:5).

Jesus reinforces this truth in John 3:7 when He restates that one must be born again and that this newness of life can only be produced by the Holy Spirit (John 3:8).

There are several reasons why this is the correct interpretation of the phrase “born of water and the Spirit.”

First of all, we should note that the Greek word translated “again” has two possible meanings.
The first one is “again,”
and the second one is “from above.”
Nicodemus apparently assumed the first meaning “again”
and found that idea incomprehensible.
That is why he could not understand how as a grown man
he could re-enter his mother’s womb

and be “born again” physically.
Therefore, Jesus restates what He had just told Nicodemus
in a different way so that it would be clear He was referring
to being “born from above.”
In other words, both “born from above”
and “born of water and Spirit”
are two ways of saying the same thing.

Second, it is important to note the Greek grammar in this verse would seem to indicate
“being born of water” and “being born of the Spirit”
are thought of as one item, not two.
Therefore, it is not speaking of two separate births,
as Nicodemus incorrectly thought,
but of one birth, that of being
“born from above” or the spiritual birth that is necessary
for anyone to “see the kingdom of God.”
This need for one to be “born again,”
or to experience spiritual birth,
is so important that Jesus tells Nicodemus
of its necessity three different times in this passage of Scripture (John 3:3, 3:5, 3:7).

Third, water is often used symbolically in the Bible to refer to the
work of the Holy Spirit in sanctifying a believer,

whereby God cleanses and purifies the believer’s
heart or soul.
In many places in both the Old and New Testaments,
the work of the Holy Spirit is compared to water
(Isaiah 44:3; John 7:38-39).

Jesus rebukes Nicodemus in John 3:10 by asking him:
“Are you the teacher of Israel,
and do not understand these things?”
This implies that what Jesus had just told him was something Nicodemus should have known and understood from the Old Testament. What is it that Nicodemus, as a teacher of the Old Testament, should have known and understood?

It is that God had promised in the Old Testament a time was coming in which He would: “sprinkle clean water on you,
and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in
My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.” (Ezekiel 36:25-27).

Jesus rebuked Nicodemus because he failed to recall and understand one of the key Old Testament passages pertaining
to the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:33).
Nicodemus should have been expecting this.

Why would Jesus have rebuked Nicodemus for not understanding “water baptism” considering the fact that
baptism is nowhere mentioned in the Old Testament?

Word_Swordsman · Oct 28, 2014

newbirth said:

Matthew 3:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Jesus was on the scene for Paul, revealing Himself with glory. Paul was instantly changed, born again, ready to obey God instead of just thinking he obeyed God by killing Christians. Jesus has a greater baptism for us than John provided. John's only looked forward to what Jesus would provide. Acts 22:16 (KJV) [SUP]16 [/SUP] And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Wash away thy sins......that happens upon believing and repentance, not from physical body washng in water. If it was a physical transformation element that would have been poited out in other water baptisims. Water baptism signifies the Christian has indeed died to sin with Christ, the Old Man of sin left in the grave, and the new man arising with Jesus. The water does none of that. The spiritual events inside us accomplish that.

Note that Jesus didn't baptize anyone in water, though John's baptism was highly respected as promised by John and the prophet before him. Paul insisted his own ministry wasn't about that. He did for a few, but not as a regular practice.

Here is the baptism Paul had to do with, folks easily missing the details out of fear of the possible pentecostal issue, involving being filled with the Holy Spirit as distinctly separate from John's baptism, something none of John's disciples could claim, though all of John's disciples had been water baptized only:
Acts 19:1-7 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And all the men were about twelve.

I don't think it has ever been necessary for a believer to be water baptized twice. Paul said John ministered repentance, and that those baptized were to believe upon Jesus. When they heard Paul utter that they were baptized in another baptism, the one from Jesus that fills with the Spirit, not emphasizing repentance from sin. John's water baptism was replaced by the Spirit baptism. But no believer should be denied the water baptism. Those 12 men already had that, believing John's teaching, which introduced Christ to them. This by the hands of Paul is that baptism Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:17-20 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

In another place Jesus said this:

Matthew 20:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
[HR][/HR] Matthew 20:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Jesus wasn't referring to a water baptism unto repentance.

I can't play around with suggesting Paul was disobedient about not water baptizing every convert. No telling how many new believers qualified. But I am saying he specialized in the latter baptism.

When I see the word baptise/baptized I closely study the context. One word in a passage can make it a John's baptism, or a spirit baptism. They are not the same things.

tylerbones1313 · Oct 28, 2014

PACEMAKER said:

Newbirth, you are always bringing up this verse.

I Hope and Pray that you will ask God to help you
Honestly understand this Scripture..

Question: "Does 1 Peter 3:21 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?"Answer: As with any single verse or passage,
we discern what it teaches by first filtering
it through what we know the Bible
teaches on the subject at hand.
In the case of baptism and salvation,
the Bible is clear that salvation
is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ,
not by works of any kind,
including “water baptism” (Ephesians 2:8-9).

So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion
that "water baptism", or any other act,

is necessary for salvation,
is a faulty interpretation.

Those who believe that “water baptism”
is required for salvation are quick
to use 1 Peter 3:21 as a “proof text,
” because it states “baptism now saves you.”

Was Peter really saying that the act
of being “water baptized” is what saves us?
If he were, he would be contradicting
many other passages of Scripture
that clearly show people being saved
(as evidenced by their receiving the Holy Spirit)
prior to being baptized
or without being baptized at all
(like the thief on the cross in Luke 23:39-43).

A good example of someone who was saved
before being baptized is Cornelius
and his household in Acts 10.
We know that they were saved before
being “water baptized” because
they had received the Holy Spirit,
which is the evidence of salvation
(Romans 8:9; Ephesians 1:13; 1 John 3:24).

The evidence of their salvation was the reason
Peter allowed them to be “water baptized”.

Countless passages of Scripture clearly teach
that salvation comes when one believes in the gospel,
at which time he or she is sealed
“in Christ with the Holy Spirit of promise”
(Ephesians 1:13).

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth,

the gospel of your salvation,
and believed in Him,

were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
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Thankfully, though, we don’t have to guess
at what Peter means in this verse
because he clarifies that for us with the phrase

“not the removal of dirt from the flesh,

but an appeal to God for a good conscience.”

While Peter is connecting baptism with salvation,
it is not the act of being “water baptized”
that he is referring to
(not the removal of dirt from the flesh).
Being immersed in water does nothing
but wash away dirt.

What Peter is referring to is what baptism represents,
which is what saves us

(an appeal to God for a good conscience

through the resurrection of Jesus Christ).

In other words, Peter is simply connecting

“water baptism” with belief.

It is not the getting-wet part that saves

but is the “appeal to God for a clean conscience”

which is signified by baptism, that saves us.

The appeal to God always comes first.

First belief and repentance,

Then we are “water baptized” to publicly

identify ourselves with Christ.

The Old Testament Jew was saved before he brought the offering.

That offering was only his outward testimony
that he was placing faith in the Lamb of God
of whom these sacrifices were for

”Water baptism”

is the outward testimony of the
believer's inward faith.

The person is saved the moment

he places his faith in the Lord Jesus.

“Water baptism” is the visible testimony
to his faith and the salvation
he was given in answer to that faith.

Peter is careful to inform his readers
that he is not teaching baptismal regeneration,
namely, that a person who submits
to “water baptism” is thereby regenerated,
for he says,
'not the putting away of the filth of the flesh.'

Baptism, Peter explains,
does not wash away the filth of the flesh,

either in a literal sense as a bath for the body,
nor in a metaphorical sense as a cleansing for the soul.

No rituals or ceremonies really affect the conscience.

But he defines what he means by salvation,
in the words 'the answer of a good conscience toward God,"

and he explains how this is accomplished,

namely, 'by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,'
in that the believing sinner is identified
with Him in that resurrection.”

Baptism has been relegated to something
that is done later.
Yet to Peter or any of the first-century Christians,

the idea that a person would
confess Christ as his Savior
and not be baptized as soon as possible
would have been unheard of.

Therefore, it is not surprising that Peter
would see baptism as almost synonymous with salvation.

Yet Peter makes it clear in this verse
that it is not the ritual itself that saves,
but the fact that we are united with Christ
in His resurrection through faith,

“the pledge of a good conscience toward God

through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 3:21).

Therefore, the baptism that Peter says saves us

is the one that is Preceded by FAITH

in the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ
that justifies the unrighteous sinner
(Romans 3:25-26)
25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood,
to be received by faith.
This was to show God’s righteousness,
because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time,
so that he might be just and the justifier
of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Baptism is the outward sign of what God has done

“by the washing of regeneration
and renewing by the Holy Spirit”
(Titus 3:5).
He saved us,
not because of works done
by us in righteousness,

but according to his own mercy,

by the washing of regeneration
and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Newbirth, I hope that this Info helps you to Understand this verse in Scripture better
And Remember that Scripture can Not Contradict itself
You belief on"water baptism" as a Requirement for Salvation
Would be ADDING to what the Scriptures..Say

PaceMaker:

I am so sick of people bringing up the thief on the cross as part of their argument against water baptism. Water baptism in Jesus Name was not in effect until Christ died. All the way up til He (Christ) took his last human breath on earth we were under the Old Covenant or some would say Old Testament. Water baptism is New Testament salvation.
Hebrews 9: 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

And as far as Cornelius is concerned in Act 10 keep reading the rest of the scripture
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Why on earth would baptism be commanded to be done if not necessary.

Atwood · Oct 28, 2014

tylerbones1313 said:

Now, where is your proof of that???

But if you are going to argue this way,
I hope you are not going to argue from John 3 and Nicodemus where BTW "baptize" does not occur. So if you do want to go on about the thief being undispensational,
then do not go on about born of water in John 3, because that also was before Christ died.

But actually there are not different ways to be saved in different dispensations -- gross error.

For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord [Jesus] shall be saved [NO WATER] is in Romans 10; but it is a quote from Joel in the OT! So the way of salvation had not changed. Abraham is the great example of how to be saved/justified in the NT, and Abe is an OT character. The only refinement in the NT is that the Trinity wasn't so clearly revealed in the OT, so that believing in the actual name of Jesus was not a requirement; they just believed in YHWH & that was reckoned to them for righteousness, just as today.

Now in addition to the thief, who is a great illustration of salvation by grace through faith, you can add in the Publican who cried out, God be merciful to me a sinner, as opposed to the self-righteous Pharisee.

In your Cornelius example, Cornelius was saved before baptized with water.
His heart, like all believers was cleansed by faith, not water.

Why water baptism? Why do anything the Lord wants you to do. There are many things the Lord wishes a Christian to do, which thus become "necessary" (like pray without ceasing), but they do not all save. The only requirement on man over & over again is

BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS & YOU SHALL BE SAVED.
That is the only MUST-I-DO for salvation.

newbirth · Oct 28, 2014

Atwood said:

[h=1]Acts 19:1-6King James Version (KJV)[/h] 19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Dogknox · Oct 28, 2014

You ask... Question: "Does John 3:5 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?"

I reply: The Early Church fathers tell you John 3:5 does!!!!!
The Early >CHRISTIANS< tell you Baptism is what Jesus meant by John 3:5!!

Justin Martyr is an early >CHRISTIAN<
He said...
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Do you see it?? where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated.

PACEMAKER Christians have ALWAYS TAUGHT BAPTISM SAVES!!! They TAUGHT the bible (God) teaches "BAPTISM SAVES"!

>No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.<

EPHESIANS 2:8-9 TEACH "Circumcision will NOT save you!!!" Not by WORKS is WORKS of the Law >CIRCUMCISION is a work of the LAW! EPHESIANS 2:8-9 TEACHES "We are to do GOOD WORKS"!!!

Baptism is a GOOD WORK! There is NO such teaching found in the bible about "Faith ALONE saves!!"
PACEMAKER The teaching "Faith ALONE SAVES" is a LIE! It first appeared with Martin Luther sixteen hundred years AFTER Jesus!

You have based your whole salvation on a TEACHING of men, an UMBILICAL teaching of men!
PACEMAKER Because you are hung up on the lie of "Faith ALONE" you are forced to reject the bible (Jesus' words) and what CHRISTIANS have always taught and believed!!! John 3:5 MUST be referring to water baptism because the Apostles baptize with >WATER< the Early Apostolic Fathers baptized with WATER!!!
HISTORY tells you WATER BAPTISM saves!

PACEMAKER Right after Jesus said "you MUST be saved by WATER" he and the Apostles go out and baptize with WATER!!!

The "WATER" in John 3:5 cannot be referring to Amniotic fluid because Jesus said you MUST be re-BORN with WATER!!!!!
THINK: Was Nicodemus a living breathing man already born, when Jesus said you must be born again!!? YES!
QUESTION do you know of anyone >>NOT<< born of the womb????!!!
PACEMAKER QUESTION: How many people in Jesus' day are NOT born of Amniotic fluid??????
WHY......
Why would Jesus have to point it out if there are none NOT born of Amniotic fluid??!!!!

PACEMAKER QUESTION: Is it important to point out... (Example) "I will talk to you ONLY if you have first been born"!?

PACEMAKER Think how STUPID this sounds>>> You must be born of water first and not molasses, not of oil, not of vinegar ONLY if you are first born of Amniotic WATER can you be born of spirit!!!?? Whack-whack-whack-OOOOoooh Your Amniotic fluid idea DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE!

PACEMAKER Just in case you do not know: "ALL PEOPLES ARE FIRST BORN of the womb BEFORE YOU CAN TALK TO THEM"!
QUESTION: Is it important to point out you MUST be FIRST BORN before you can be RE-BORN???!!

THINK: Jesus would NOT have to point out to Nicodemus that he must be alive first before he can be reborn!!!!

The words of Jesus: Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’

Jesus does NOT SAY ".. ..no one can enter the kingdom unless they are born of Spirit"!

Jesus said .. "WATER & SPIRIT" Not Spirit alone!
PACEMAKER Jesus would NOT have to mention the water part if it was meant to be Amniotic fluid!!! The Water Part of John 3:5 meaning Amniotic fluid would be a given, by the fact Nicodemus was standing there in front of Jesus, a living breathing person!

FACT: The Apostles baptize with WATER!
FACT: Baptism ADDS people to the Body of Jesus!

The Body of Jesus is the CHURCH!!
The CHURCH washes away the sins with WATERS of baptism for two thousand years the one Church Jesus established baptized with WATER to save!!

Acts 22:16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name'.

1 Peter 3:20
to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

God tells you (above) "BAPTISM SAVES"!!

tylerbones1313 · Oct 29, 2014

Time and time again I see the question about what power does the water have to remove sin. We are not placing our faith in the water to save us our faith is solely in the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross and what the water represents, which is the blood of Christ. 1 Pe 3:20 is telling us if our faith is not in Christ and him crucified and resurrected than baptism is only washing away dirt and cleaning our physical body not washing our sins and making us a new creation in Christ Jesus.

PACEMAKER · Oct 29, 2014

Dogknox said:

Dogknox You take your "water baptism" as your Salvation

To Me JESUS SAVES
Romans 3:
[h=3]Righteousness Through Faith[/h][SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
[SUP]
22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith in[SUP] [/SUP]Jesus Christ
to all who believe.

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

[SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
[SUP]
24 [/SUP]and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[SUP]
[/SUP] through the shedding of his blood—

to be received by faith.

He did this to demonstrate his righteousness,
because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

[SUP]26 [/SUP]he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time,
so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

..Dogknox You and your other men have your Opinion on your belief on
"water baptism" as a Requirement for Salvation

BUT This Scripture Above is very CLEAR on the Power of Christ
By Ones Belief and Faith In HIM
And the word "water baptism" is NOT Found is this Scripture

Remember .... Do NOT ADD Words or Take Words Out of Scripture
To get an HONEST Understanding as to what is said..

Dogknox,
Can you give me Opinion as to what this verse is saying??
[SUP]24 [/SUP]and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Just how much Power would your "water baptism" have
if Christ had not made the ONE Time
Sacrifice Atonement for ALL SINS????

Remember to read the Scriptures for what they say in Context
and NOT what men have told you
to get the Honest Understanding as to what Scriptures say..

I Corth. 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize,
but to preach the gospel--
not with wisdom and eloquence,
lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Paul said that he came NOT to "water baptize" .....
But to PREACH the Gospel.....

So, Apparently "water baptism"
Is Not a Requirement for ones Salvation
As your Opinion says

Or Paul would be saying that he came to "water baptize"
BUT he did NOT say that...... Right ????

Atwood · Oct 29, 2014

Dogknox said:

Dog, your so-called Church fathers prove nothing. They don't give God's word.

"Acts 22:16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name'."

You quote Ananias, & the text records what Ananias said, without saying that Ananias was prophesying. But note the tenses of your verbs above in the Greek:

16 And now why tarriest thou? Arise and be baptized.
And wash away thy sins, (by) having called on his name.

Calling on the name of the Lord saves (Rom 10:13) and this call is a call of faith (Rom 10:14) . And verse 16 does not mention "water baptism."

Acts 15:8-9: "8 And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith."

Acts 26:
"6 But arise, and stand upon thy feet: for to this end have I appeared unto thee, to appoint thee a minister and a witness both of the things wherein thou hast seen me, and of the things wherein I will appear unto thee; 17 delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom I send thee, 18 to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.

1 Peter 3

"through water: 21 which also after a figure doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

It is not water baptism that saves; water baptism is a figure of what saves (death, burial, & resurrection of Christ). Antitupon is an adjective used evidently as an adverb "after a figure" or "figuratively." Antitupon is not the subject of the sentence.

Wrong. The Bible never says that water baptism saves. And in fact there exist passage after passage; too many for one post on this forum, which offer salvation only on the condition of belief/faith.

And since baptizo does not mean sprinkling, that would leave a lot of persons out of luck if they thought sprinkling saved.

There is only 1 MUST I DO to be saved.
Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.

NO WATER; NO WORKS.

Water baptism is a human work & works cannot save (Eph 2).

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES . . . everlasting life. Whosoever rules out any essential addition.

Atwood · Oct 29, 2014

Water Baptism is never presented as essential to salvation in the Bible. It cannot save because human works are excluded (Ephesians 2) & so many, many times salvation is offered just for believing. People will quote verses where baptism is mentioned, but not water. Spirit baptism is salvific, but it is a thing God does, not man.

Then some want to quote 1 Peter:

ὕδατος, ὃ καὶ ὑμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει βάπτισμα,

The subject of saves (σῴζει) is which, not antitupon. Antitupon is a neuter adjective, not a noun, and it is used as an adverb here; thus it is renderable with a prepositional phrase "after a figure," or figuratively.

The reasons why water immersion is not essential for salvation are
1) the Bible never says it is essential.
2) the Bible says works don't save (& water immersion is a human work),
3) salvation is offered over & over, many many times just for believing/faith/trust in the Savior (pisteuō/pistis). Just a few examples below:

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one thatbelieveth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 4:1ff

:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, hisfaith is reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down

or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Bride · Oct 29, 2014

How many people will be in Heaven who REFUSED to be baptized into Christ by the Spirit or the Water or the Blood?

Z E R O

Any questions?

Atwood · Oct 29, 2014

Bride said:

Yes, where does the Bible say such a thing?

It does repeat over & over that He who believes has everlasting life.

There is no question of refusing being baptized into Christ. When a man hears the gospel, probably no one is talking about Spriit baptism. He evangelist proclaims God's word:

Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.
For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Spirit baptism is God's word which must happen the moment a man trusts Christ as Savior (1 Cor 12:13).

So there is no question of refusing; a man trusts the Savior, & then God baptizes the man. Later the man gets teaching on Spirit baptism.

One is not baptized into Christ by water.
By blood? Of course Christ's shedding His blood for man is the basis of all blessings; but I don't know that saying such a thing is Biblical language "baptized into Christ by the Blood"???

Bride · Oct 29, 2014

Atwood said:

I thank God that most people are familiar enough with scriptures to know you haven't a clue what you are saying sir. You are a false teacher.

(Mar 1:9)
And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
(Mar 1:10)
And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

WATER! no works! Just FAITH

(Joh 3:5)
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

WATER! No works, just FAITH

(Act 8:35)
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
(Act 8:36)
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
(Act 8:37)
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
(Act 8:38)
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
(Act 8:39)
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

WATER! no works, just FAITH

(Heb 10:22)
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

WATER! no works, just FAITH

(1Pe 3:20)
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(1Pe 3:21)
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

WATER! no works, just FAITH

(1Jn 5:6)
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

WATER! no works, just FAITH

NOW... you listed a bunch of pointless verses to prove a false idea. Real isogetical there... I listed some of the Word showing where WATER IS BAPTISM and important to observe as much also is Receiving the Holy Spirit and Drinking the Blood of Christ.

Conclusion. A willful and malevolent doctrine designed to cause a person to become hard in heart toward baptism, preventing their entrance into the Kingdom of God, substituting man made doctrines that fly blatantly in the face of the plain clear Word of God and examples neatly and conclusively provided. Bottom line, it is a doctrine of the devil because it messes with salvation, and it is also only pushed by those who are repelled at the thought of submitting to dying to self, dying in Christ, and showing the outward evidence of that in the one appointed way.

Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and you shall receive the Holy Spirit and eternal life!

Bride · Oct 29, 2014

Atwood said:

Yes, the Blood is ONE with the Water as well as the Spirit.

(1Jn 5:8)
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The blood on the doorpost, over our head; Having Christ's blood running in our veins; Being born of the Spirit from above. Dying in the waters of baptism having ones sins covered and washed away... these are Kingdom of God 101 teachings that are clear and plain.

I also provided some scriptures below that are plain to most folk regarding the straight forward examples of water baptism. There's plenty more... but I have a feeling that you aren't interested in what scriptures says about this, as you have no intent to submitting yourself to this basic Word of God it would appear. You are repulsed by it, that is plain to see. That says nothing about misunderstanding scriptures, but everything about disobeying them. I am so concerned for your soul!

Bride · Oct 29, 2014

Atwood said:

(Heb 12:25)
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh
from heaven:

(Mat 28:19)
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

(Mat 28:20)
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

(Act 8:36)
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

(Act 8:37)
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

(Act 8:38)
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

(Joh 3:23)
And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

... here is what I don't get...

how could a person watch Jesus do this, knowing why He did it, then refuse it for Himself? Is the message from the evil one THAT POWERFUL over you?

(Mat 3:13)
Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

Jesus evidently thought it meant something... But those rebellious who refuse to do this sure don't think it means anything but "works". Where did this corrupted thinking come from? Such a thing only comes from the enemy.

newbirth · Oct 29, 2014

Atwood said:

Acts 22:16

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

middle-texan · Oct 29, 2014

You won't find one. Baptism is not a symbol - other things symbolize baptism (i.e. the water of the great flood, burial of a dead body, etc.), but baptism does not symbolize anything other than an obedient submission to the will of Christ.

tylerbones1313 · Oct 29, 2014

Water baptism symbolizes and identifies us into the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ. It also symbolizes the washing away of our sins in the Blood of Christ.

Atwood · Oct 29, 2014

Bride said:

The Lord Jesus was never lost, so this has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation -- the Lord Jesus is the Savior, not a sinner who got saved!

Baptism is not mentioned. Born of water = natural birth. To enter the Kingdom natural birth is not enough, Spirit regeneration is required.

NOTHING WHATSOEVER ABOUT WATER OR WORKS SAVING.

The point is not that men should refrain from water baptism; the point is that it never is essential for salvation in the Bible. The only thing over & over repeated, is faith/belief.

NO WORKS NOR WATER SALVATION THERE.

Noah already had found grace from the Lord & was already saved. The flood of the earth didn't save him from damnation.

(1Pe 3:21)
saved through water: 21 which also after a figure doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

Baptism is a figure of what really saves: Christ's substitutionary death, burial, & resurrection; not the reality of it.

Says nothing about water baptism saving anyone. The Lord Jesus is the Savior, not a saved sinner.

We aren't arguing about what is important to observe. I present the truth of salvation; it is offered just for believing in the Savior, many, many times; NO WATER, NO WORKS save.

Now when did you ever drink the blood of Christ?

Water Baptism does not save; it is a human work, which cannot save.
Over & over, all a person need do is trust the Savior.

Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.
The Lord does not do false advertising.
Making water into an idol to trust for salvation, indeed hinders being saved.

What you just said is not a quote of the Bible. Being Spirit baptized is salvific, and that is what happened in Acts 2 in fulfillment of Acts 1 which told them they would be Spirit Baptized not many days hence.

Now don't accuse the Bible of being wrong when it says:

Ps 37:5-6
Commit thy way unto YHWH;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Acts 15:8

And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Acts 26:18b

that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 4:1ff

:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down

or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Atwood · Oct 29, 2014

middle-texan said:

Water baptism clearly is a symbol, a picture of Christ's death, burial, & resurrection. It should be a confession that one believes in Christ as Savior & trusts His atonement.

Do you really think that when a man is dipped down into water & raised out of the water that is not a picture of Christ's atoning death & resurrection?

Now if you confuse baptism with sprinkling, you may have a problem. But the word does not mean "sprinkle."

Baptism symbol only ?

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