Scriptures Cannot be alone... Scripture is clear

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Oct 24, 2014
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Do you believe this institution is the only authority holder to teach God Word?

Emanuela Orlandi Was 'Kidnapped For Vatican Sex Parties,' Claims Father Gabriele Amorth




Posted: 05/22/2012 5:52 pm EDT Updated: 05/24/2012 5:12 pm EDT







The Holy See was directly involved in thedisappearance of 15-year-old Emanuela Orlandi in 1983, according to a contentious accusation by the Catholic Church's leading exorcist. The Rev. Gabriele Amorth claimed that the girl's kidnapping was a "crime of a sexual nature."
"Parties were organized, with a Vatican gendarme acting as the 'recruiter' of the girls," Amorth told La Stampa, according to a translation by The Telegraph. "The network involved diplomatic personnel from a foreign embassy to the Holy See. I believe Emanuela ended up a victim of this circle."
Amorth, who was appointed by Pope John Paul II and has carried out tens of thousands of exorcisms, is no stranger to controversial public statements; according to The Sun, the exorcist has called Harry Potter the "work of the devil," and has claimed "the devil was at work in the Vatican" when discussing the Catholic Church's sex scandals.


Clues to the missing girl's whereabouts had pointed in several directions, including toward a Turkish gunman who attempted to assassinate Pope John Paul II, The Telegraph reports.
On May 14, one rumor led Italian police to exhume the grave of Enrico De Pedis, a member of Rome's Magliana mob who was killed in 1990, the Associated Press reports. A one-time girlfriend previously said De Pedis committed the kidnapping, and an anonymous call to a television show in 2005 suggested clues on Orlandi's fate lay in the dead mobster's tomb in Basilica of Sant’Apollinaire. A set of bones not belonging to De Pedis were found, but the identity of the remains has yet to be released.
The Vatican insists it has done everything in its power to help solve the mystery of the missing girl.
Clarification: This story previously indicated that Amorth has carried out 70,000 exorcisms. We've amended that to say that he claims the number is in the tens of thousands. Several published reports over the last few years have indicated his claims are in that range, but HuffPost has not been able to verify any current



More visitor mean more money isn't it?



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[TD="width: 629"]Last Updated: Thursday, 6 December 2007, 16:44 GMT

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[TD="colspan: 3"]Pope approves Lourdes indulgences
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Pope Benedict XVI places great importance on indulgences[/TD]
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Pope Benedict XVI has authorised special indulgences to mark the 150th anniversary of the Virgin Mary's reputed appearance at Lourdes.Catholics visiting the site within a year of 8 December will be able to receive an indulgence, which the Church teaches can reduce time in purgatory.
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(Mat 7:20)
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Sorry if I get worked up here, but I'm new to this forum stuff and new to computers. But I'm not new at too much else hehe, ...except for one thing, and that is the horrid conduct the likes of which I've never seen nor heard before! And to think I came here for some comfortable relaxed fellowship. There is none to be had in this god-forsaken country. But then I read the most bizarre brazen religion pushers masquerading here as "Christians" and I am just shook to the core. I was in a catholic church once for a wedding and remember it being sort of splendorous and gaudy, very unappealing, but really nothing more. I've known many catholics in my life. Probably know even more. But never, ever before now, have I ever been so disgusted with what I have been shown this week by a catholic, that I am nauseas with that experience. I will never look at those buildings or the people in them the same, God help me. Somebody please tell me how to put someone on ignore I read somebody said I could do that, so I don't have to read that stuff? It is weird, it is like an eye magnet and like watching a horror movie how it affects me... am I the only one like this? I really got disturbed. Thank you everyone for the notes you've sent and likes, thank you. One day I'll figure out the friend system :)
Try to love them (I know it can be hard) God does.. It is hard though I agree with ya!
 
Oct 9, 2014
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Nick01 You said.. Jesus did establish a church that was catholic (i.e universal and united), but he did not call the church catholic. Jesus never used the word. None of the NT writers did. It isn't until you get to Ignatius in the second century that people start describing the church as catholic, and then without any particular relatonship to the Roman episcopate.

I reply: RIGHT about Jesus not naming his church!!! All churches are named by MEN, even your church!
1) Ignatius was a friend of the Apostle John!
2) Ignatius was a BISHOP!
3) The Church of the early Christians had BISHOPS!
4) They ate the flesh of Jesus in the form of bread!
5) They had a hierarchy!
6) The Church Jesus established had AUTHORITY to command men it had AUTHORITY!
7) The Church Jesus established TAUGHT with the AUTHORITY to TEACH coming from God!
8) THE Church HAS A linage going all the way back 2000 years to Jesus!
9) The Church Jesus established eats his living forever flesh!
10) To say different.. To say your church is the church Jesus established you will have to deny SCRIPTURES!


You said.. I'm assuming you'renot going to argue that because the EAstern Orthodox church is called 'orthodox', that they are therefore the only church with orthodox teaching?

In any case, you're basically arguing my point. The whole church was considered catholic. There is only one church. That one church was established without any specific reference to the Roman papacy, which was one authority among many regional episcopates for centuries, basically until the breakup of the Roman empire and the ecumenical schisms that followed.

I reply: You make my point The "orthodox church" believes the same as the Catholic Church does today!
Proving the Church Jesus established .. Has Bishops Priests with AUTHORITY to TEACH!!!
Proving The Church Jesus established still eats his living forever flesh!
The Church Jesus established has Priests with the AUTHORITY to remove sins in confession!
Because the Orthodox Church believes the same as the Catholic Church does today!!

PROVING BEYOND DOUBT: the Church Jesus established is NOT, it cannot be your many thousands and thousands man made "Bible & Faith ALONE" churches!

 
Oct 9, 2014
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Nick01 Are you okay... Nothing to say? Cat got your tongue? No reply to post # 183??
 

SolidGround

Senior Member
Jan 15, 2014
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If I named my dog "Bishop", would it give it any authority?
No.
Titles mean nothing. The Spirit that leads the men is all that matters.

All those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, who are given His Spirit and a seal,
these are the ONE CHURCH.
The head of the ONE CHURCH is Christ.

The Church is not a religious government, but the grouping of all individual believers.

DO YOU NOT KNOW WHAT THE WORD "CHURCH" EVEN MEANS?!?!
It means "the assembly".

When you think of "the Church", do you think of an organization? Then you are very and fully wrong.
The Church is the collective whole of all of those who have been redeemed by the shed Blood of Christ.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
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Nick01Are you okay... Nothing to say? Cat got your tongue? No reply to post # 183??
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that I was on a timetable, or that I was obligated to reply to you at all, frankly. But, since you asked ever so nicely... ;)

Nick01 You said.. Jesus did establish a church that was catholic (i.e universal and united), but he did not call the church catholic. Jesus never used the word. None of the NT writers did. It isn't until you get to Ignatius in the second century that people start describing the church as catholic, and then without any particular relatonship to the Roman episcopate.

I reply: RIGHT about Jesus not naming his church!!! All churches are named by MEN, even your church!


As is yours. Do you have a point?
1) Ignatius was a friend of the Apostle John!
A student, but yes
2) Ignatius was a BISHOP!
Yes.
3) The Church of the early Christians had BISHOPS!
Yes.
4) They ate the flesh of Jesus in the form of bread!
Depends entirely on what you mean by flesh of Jesus. The modern Roman Catholic view of the Eucharist was certainly not universal, or even identical ANYWHERE, to the view held in the early church. Ignatius certainly doesn't offer a developed theory of the Eucharist, and most of what he DOES say is in response to Docetists who don't believe Jesus came to earth in bodily form at all.
5) They had a hierarchy!
Yep.
6) The Church Jesus established had AUTHORITY to command men it had AUTHORITY!
On the basis of apostolic authority, which progressively became more reliant on the Scriptures than on the men, as people became successively more generations removed from apostolic teaching.
7) The Church Jesus established TAUGHT with the AUTHORITY to TEACH coming from God!
Again, in so far as it taught what the Lord Jesus taught. As I said, you would be hard pressed to find a single church father who makes any argument of substance that does not find its foundation in the Scriptures. They didn't have a seperate authority, but the same authority - that coming from the apostles who were taught by Christ. The Scriptures very quickly became the authority on the basis that they were the more immediate access to that tradition, particularly after several generations passed, moving ito the Nicene era.
8) THE Church HAS A linage going all the way back 2000 years to Jesus!
Yep.
9) The Church Jesus established eats his living forever flesh!
Yep. But I suspect you and I have to different understandings of what that means ;)
10) To say different.. To say your church is the church Jesus established you will have to deny SCRIPTURES!
Well, you haven't made your argument from Scripture all that much at this point. We've talked a lot of Ignatius, though.


I reply: You make my point The "orthodox church" believes the same as the Catholic Church does today!
Really? Apart from the fact that Rome and the Orthodox church don't believe the same things on a variety of issues (the Eucharist being one of them), they disagree profoundly on the most important issue bearing on your argument - the authority of the 'Petrine seat', as it were, over the rest of the church.
Proving the Church Jesus established .. Has Bishops Priests with AUTHORITY to TEACH!!!
No, it doesn't prove this at all.
Proving The Church Jesus established still eats his living forever flesh!
Nope, again.
The Church Jesus established has Priests with the AUTHORITY to remove sins in confession!
Nope. If you're going to argue this, at least provide some actual evidence.
Because the Orthodox Church believes the same as the Catholic Church does today!!
As I already said, nope. Otherwise, there would have been and would be no schism.

PROVING BEYOND DOUBT:
the Church Jesus established is NOT, it cannot be your many thousands and thousands man made "Bible & Faith ALONE" churches!
You've proved nothing. In fact what you're mostly doing is ignoring the substance of my previous posts, and then either reasserting points you've made before, or moving away on tangents.

You have yet to prove the priority of the Petrine seat in Rome in teaching and authority.
You have yet to prove an early church understanding of episcopal authority subsisting separately from scriptural and apostolic authority.
You have yet to prove and early church understanding of episcopal authority over and above scriptural and apostolic authority.

These are the essential points of what you need to establish - everything else is window dressing.
 
Sep 21, 2014
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If I named my dog "Bishop", would it give it any authority?
No.
Titles mean nothing. The Spirit that leads the men is all that matters.
I question your Gnostic tendency. Authority does not come from a title, it comes from ordination. There is nothing in the bible that gives any believer the authority to teach, that is the false doctrine of Individualism. A deacon, priest or bishop can only be ordained by a higher authority. A minister is authorized by the board of directors which hires him. This is not biblical. Having no bishops is not biblical either.

All those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, who are given His Spirit and a seal,
these are the ONE CHURCH.
The head of the ONE CHURCH is Christ.
Yes, these are truths you borrowed from the Catholic Church. We had them first.

The Church is not a religious government, but the grouping of all individual believers.
I wouldn't use the term "government", and its not an empire or corporation like the paranoid anti-Catholics think. She is modeled after the Davidic Kingdom in her hierarchy.

Exodus 28:1 and 19:6 – shows the three offices of the Old Testament priesthood
(1). high priest – Aaron (Ex. 28:1);
(2). Ministerial priests – Aaron’s sons (Ex. 19:6; 28:1); and
(3). Universal priests – Israel (Ex. 19:6).

The New Testament priesthood also has three offices:

(1) High Priest – Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1);
(2) Ministerial priests – the ordained bishops and priests (Rom. 15:16; 1 Tim. 3:1,8; 5:17; Titus 1:7); and
(3) Universal priests - all the baptized (1 Pet. 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6).

If you don't have the biblical three fold episcopate with a lineage going back to the Apostles, fine. But don't blame Catholicism because your spiritual forefathers decided they didn't need them.

DO YOU NOT KNOW WHAT THE WORD "CHURCH" EVEN MEANS?!?!
It means "the assembly".
When you think of "the Church", do you think of an organization? Then you are very and fully wrong.
The Church is the collective whole of all of those who have been redeemed by the shed Blood of Christ.
Who in the Church had the authority to determine which books belonged in the New Testament canon and to make this decision binding on all Christians? An unorganized group of believers?


Jesus said that the unity of Christians would be objective evidence to the world that He had been sent by God (John 17:20-23). How can the world see an invisible "unity" that exists only in the hearts of believers?


Hebrews 13:17 "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."

What is the expiration date of this verse?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I question your Gnostic tendency. Authority does not come from a title, it comes from ordination. There is nothing in the bible that gives any believer the authority to teach, that is the false doctrine of Individualism. A deacon, priest or bishop can only be ordained by a higher authority. A minister is authorized by the board of directors which hires him. This is not biblical. Having no bishops is not biblical either.


Yes, these are truths you borrowed from the Catholic Church. We had them first.

I wouldn't use the term "government", and its not an empire or corporation like the paranoid anti-Catholics think. She is modeled after the Davidic Kingdom in her hierarchy.

Exodus 28:1 and 19:6 – shows the three offices of the Old Testament priesthood
(1). high priest – Aaron (Ex. 28:1);
(2). Ministerial priests – Aaron’s sons (Ex. 19:6; 28:1); and
(3). Universal priests – Israel (Ex. 19:6).

The New Testament priesthood also has three offices:

(1) High Priest – Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1);
(2) Ministerial priests – the ordained bishops and priests (Rom. 15:16; 1 Tim. 3:1,8; 5:17; Titus 1:7); and
(3) Universal priests - all the baptized (1 Pet. 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6).

If you don't have the biblical three fold episcopate with a lineage going back to the Apostles, fine. But don't blame Catholicism because your spiritual forefathers decided they didn't need them.



Who in the Church had the authority to determine which books belonged in the New Testament canon and to make this decision binding on all Christians? An unorganized group of believers?


Jesus said that the unity of Christians would be objective evidence to the world that He had been sent by God (John 17:20-23). How can the world see an invisible "unity" that exists only in the hearts of believers?


Hebrews 13:17 "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."

What is the expiration date of this verse?
as a fact that scripture tells us all people to go make disciples of all nations. in fact Paul said the corinthian church members should be able to teach others. etc etc. I would highly disagree here. anyone can be called to teach by God. and everyone should teach each other..
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
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Blind shouldn't teach the blind.



[SIZE=+4]New Lead In Vatican
Bank Scandal Surfaces [/SIZE]
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By Greg Szymanski
Arctic Beacon.com
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[TD="width: 601%"][SIZE=+1]According to Illuminati insider, Ezio Giunchiglia of the Masonic Monte Carlo P2 Board of Directors, was in communication with Archbishop Paul Marcinkus, former head of the Vatican Bank, up until his recent death. Marcinkus was at the heart of the scandal and the death of Roberto Calvi, nicknamed God's Banker.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]In the early 1980's, the Vatican Bank scandal erupted in Italy, bringing to light corruption of unprecedented proportions within the Catholic Church's hierarchy.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]The scandal was covered on a daily basis by the Italian press, but very little was ever mentioned in America, as a veil of silence, still existing today, protects Vatican corruption from ever getting into the mainstream and even the alternative American press.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Researchers who cover the Vatican closely surmise the reason why is that the Vatican, through the many Zionist media owners it uses as a cover, is bought and paid off to keep the Vatican and their Jesuit Order henchmen quietly in the background, out of sight and out of mind.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]However, for those caught in the Jesuit trap of silence and for those who never heard of the Vatican Bank scandal, it brought to light Vatican involvement in money laundering with the Mafia. Corruption embedded in the Italian P2 Masonic Lodges was also revealed when several Italian and French publications disclosed how more than 150 high-level Catholic priests, bishops, and cardinals were practicing members of Freemasonry, many of whom were tagged as being Satanists.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]In several stories located in the Arctic Beacon archives, this publication has previously listed the names of the priests tagged with Masonic membership, along with their code names. It also should be mentioned that according to Canon Law, affiliation with Freemasonry results in immediate excommunication from the Catholic Church, something that never happened to any of the 150 or more priests mentioned by the European source of the information.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]In fact, the bank scandal which brought down the Bank of Ambrosiano in Rome, leading to the execution-style murder of the bank's president, Roberto Calvi, came on the heels of the assassination of Pope John Paul I. The Pope was killed several years prior to the scandal for wanting to clean up the Vatican Bank as well as expose the Masonic involvement of many high-level bishops and cardinals.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Although the Pope's death was officially listed as being "from natural causes," he strangely died after serving only 33 days in office an important Illuminati cult number * and was never given a proper independent autopsy or murder investigation.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]In fact, when family members and friends asked to have the Pope's intestines properly examined to check for possible poisons, the late Under-Secretary to the Pope, Cardinal Jean-Marie Villot, suspected of being at the heart of the Pope's assassination, officially released a statement that "the Pope's intestines unfortunately had already been burned."[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]With John Paul I out of the way, the corruption in the Church continued as usual with Archbishop Paul Marcinkus of Chicago , head of the Vatican Bank, given a clean slate and protection from Pope John Paul II. Archbishop Marcinkus was already under the wing of the Jesuits, and had been previously tagged as a CIA/ Nazi spy working underground in Poland to sell out his people, along with liberal priests who were sent to concentration camps and killed.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Furthermore, it must be noted that Archbishop Marcinkus, who died last year in Phoenix, Arizona, was at the heart of the bank scandal, having been indicted by Italian authorities for fraud as well as being suspected of having a hand in the murder of Calvi, found hanging by the neck under the Black Friars Bridge in London.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Although Calvi's death was classified as a suicide, a proper investigation was never conducted. Family members still pursuing justice claim he was murdered by the Vatican-led Illuminati, who feared Calvi was not going to go away quietly and take the fall for his bank's demise alone.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Further, researchers surmise Calvi was killed - found hanging with heavy bricks tied to his body -- because he was preparing to spill the beans on top-level Vatican and Italian government officials. These included Marcinkus, members of the Jesuits, P2 Masonic Lodge head Licio Gelli, and members of the U.S. government and intelligence community, all working hand-in-glove to defraud the Italian people and the European banking community.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Looking back, the story was big Illuminati news back then in Italy, with Archbishop Marcinkus indicted and at the center of both the scandal and the Calvi murder. However, with bribery being an important part of the Vatican arsenal, Marcinkus' case was never brought to trial, as he Vatican paid more than $250,000 to the Italian government to have the case dropped.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Meanwhile Marcinkus, under the cover of night, was given diplomatic immunity by the Vatican and U.S. government, quietly being shipped away to a Catholic Parish in Phoenix where his activities were limited to saying Mass and the Rosary.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Although Marcinkus was far away from the Rome scandal, the story and Calvi's murder always haunted him until his death last year. Italian prosecutors, as well as this journalist, were hot on his trail, trying to secure an interview just prior to his death.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]As for the Rome prosecutors, they recently re-opened the Calvi case, bringing several Mafia members to trial last year for their alleged involvement, as well as trying to secure testimony from Marcinkus, vital testimony being blocked by his Illuminati handlers.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]As for this reporter, never allowed to interview Marcinkus in the early 80's by order of the Vatican, it was this publication's intention, better late than never, to go to Phoenix to meet with Marcinkus. A dialogue to secure the interview was being conducted with a family member only 10 days before Marcinkus was found dead at the age of 81 of an apparent heart attack in his room at the Phoenix Parish.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]During the dialogue with the close family member, who insisted on Marcinkus' innocence, this reporter said he would give the Archbishop the benefit of the doubt, promising to ask questions about who then were the real culprits and promising never to release Marcinkus' video-taped testimony until the Archbishop passed on.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Leaving the conversation 10 days before his death at the point where the family member stated Marcinkus was aware of the Arctic Beacon web site and this reporter's stories, this reporter was told Marcinkus would be asked, despite his frail health, if he would consent to the interview.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Unfortunately, shortly thereafter it was reported in the Associated Press, local Phoenix papers, and the Catholic press that Marcinkus had suddenly died of natural causes due to a heart attack, passing away quietly in his sleep.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]When the family member was later asked if anything suspicious was found regarding the Archbishop's death due to the interview requests by both the Rome prosecutors and this reporter, the family member denied anything suspicious, saying he only knew what was being reported by the Church, which was that Marcinkus had died of a heart attack.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]With Marcinkus now gone, researchers and this reporter surmised the Jesuits were most likely pulling Marcinkus' strings since they control Freemasonry with the only names logical to pursue being the Jesuit General himself, Fr. Peter Hans Kolvenbach and one of his trusted henchmen, Jesuit Bishop Pavel Hnilica.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Of course, the Jesuit General refused a formal interview request by this publication, saying he was too busy spreading the word of God to be bothered with such trivia and trivial publications. And, with regard to Hnilica, it was recently reported by a Slovakian TV station that he recently passed away from natural causes.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]With this reporter out of leads, a stroke of journalistic luck or perhaps the hand of God recently intervened when Leo Zagami, a former 33-degree Freemason from the Monte Carlo P2 Lodge, came forward with vital information which could lead to what, in fact, Marcinkus really knew, whether he was killed or died naturally, and the identity of the real Vatican-Jesuit[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]culprits behind the bank scandal and behind the Illuminati-Freemason connection.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]"Marcinkus was a member of my P2 Monte Carlo Lodge. I know that for a fact," said Zagami this week from his home in Norway, after breaking loose form the Illuminati and leaving his home country of Italy, fearing for his life.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]"At the moment the majority pack of Barclays Bank is obviously in the hands of poor old Queen of England, who seems to sell out completely to the American Illuminati and their vicious games with Daddy Rockefeller and the P2.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]"All major U.S. Banks have ties with the P2 but he has a special deal with Brother Ezio Giunchiglia and the Vatican . The only person allowed to have direct contact with Marcinkus at all times until his recent death was and always has been Ezio Giunchiglia of the Monte Carlo Board of Directors, the best friend of the Jesuits. Contact Ezio. He should know everything."[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]For a more detailed look at the new Calvi murder trial opened up in Rome in 2005, here is a report from last year by Conrad F. Goeringer, reprinted in part:[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Among those linked to Calvi was Archbishop Paul Marcinkus. Ordained in Chicago, Marcinkus was posted to the Holy See in Rome, and served in the Vatican Secretariat of State.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]He rapidly moved up within Vatican bureaucracy from personal papal bodyguard to head of the IOR -- a post he held from 1971 to 1989. There he worked closely with international financier Michael Sindona to expand the Vatican's portfolio of international holdings, transforming the Institute for Religious Works into a quiet but reliable shelter for questionable capital. Sindona, laundering money from associates in organized crime, funneled huge sums of money through Banco Ambrosiano and the IOR. The Vatican Bank also worked closely with the United States government as a cover money conduit to groups like the Solidarity Trade Union in Poland. Thanks to Marcinkus, Sindona was to become a "man of confidence" within the Vatican who enjoyed unique access to officials of the Holy See, even the pope.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Michael Sindona had been among Calvi's patrons at the Banco Ambrosiano, and helped expand the small "Catholic bank" into an international financial institution. Sindona's financial manipulations make a story of their own, and investigations after the Ambrosiano collapse would document how his elaborate international network of banks and offshore companies served as vehicle for laundering dirty money earned from everything from heroin traffic to "soft money" investments.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Perhaps the most mysterious character in the Calvi saga was Liccio Gelli. A former member of the fascist Black Shirts Battalion and liaison between the Mussolini regime and the infamous Herman Goring SS Division in World War II, Gelli survived the conflict and amassed an impressive list of contacts. He also obtained sensitive information on hundreds of key political, military and financial figures not only in Italy but throughout Europe, Latin America and elsewhere thanks to his access of files from the Italian secret service (OVRA) and possibly British Intelligence. Gelli helped to smuggle Klaus Barbie, the infamous "Butcher of Lyon" to safe haven in Argentina, and even managed to sell his services to the CIA and NATO. He also ingratiated himself with the regime of Juan Person in Argentin[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]In 1963, Gelli began the takeover an obscure Italian Masonic lodge, Propaganda Due or P-2, and using the blackmail files of the OVRA and other information, began aggressively recruiting members of the military and intelligence services, as well as key financial and political figures. (The Grand Lodge of Italy quickly severed recognition ties with P-2 when it learned of Gelli's activities.) P-2 expanded its operations to Argentina, Venezuela, Paraguay, Bolivia, France, Portugal and Nicaragua. Associated of Klaus Barbie were recruited, as were leaders from death squads operating in Latin America. One member was the notorious Jose Lopez Gega, an Argentinean clerical fascist who also ran a cocaine smuggling operation into the United States.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Gelli, like Sindona, enjoyed unprecedented access to the Vatican thanks to his close friendship with Cardinal Paolo Bertoli of the Holy See's Diplomatic Corps. Bertoli is known to have introduced Gelli to Paul Marcinkus. Another close associate and member of this "Gang of Four" was Umberrto Ortolani, a former OVRA Intelligence Officer and co-patron for Calvi while he was moving up in the Banco Ambrosiano. Ortolani was also tied to a secretive Roman Catholic order known as the Knights of Malta, and was elevated by Pope Paul VI to the status of "Gentleman of his Holiness." He also sponsored Liccio Gelli for membership in the Knights of Malta.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]As the scandal enveloping Calvi and the collapse of Banco Ambrosiano unfolded, police raided Gelli's private offices on March 17, 1981 and seized a treasure trove of documents including one of the membership lists of P-2. Among the 962 members identified in the papers were 43 generals in the Italian armed forces, eight admirals, 43 members of Parliament, all of the heads of the respective security and intelligence services, editors and publishers of major Italian papers and, of course, Michael Sindona and Roberto Calvi. Word of several other lists eventually surfaced, and one P-2 member "went public" with charges that key functionaries of the Holy See were involved in the clandestine group. The cell was shut down by prosecutors amidst evidence that Gelli and P-2 were establishing a "state within a state," and were plotting what amounted to a fascist coup. He eluded police for years, was captured in Cannes, then escaped prison and recently died.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Among those on trial in the murder of Roberto Calvi is gangster Flavio Carboni, considered a "fixer" with ties to police, political groups, intelligence services and the Vatican. Banco Ambrosiano backed a risky construction project Carboni had launched in Sardinia. He also admitted being with Gelli in London with Calvi after the embattled banker had fled in the wake of the Ambrosiano collapse. Skeptics say that Carboni was a close friend of Calvi's and had no credible motive for carrying out the murder.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]A MURDER PLOT REVEALED?[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Beginning in 1998, the Calvi affair was back in the news when the family of the late financier had his body exhumed. The new autopsy confirmed that Calvi was murdered elsewhere, and his corpse then hanged from beneath Blackfriar's Bridge. Investigators caught a major break in the case when in December, 2002, Mafia kingpin Antonio Giuffee told police that Calvi was murdered in part for absconding with mob money being laundered through Banco Ambrosiano.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]It is known that as the bank collapsed, Calvi approached friends in the Vatican to cover losses. He allegedly told associates in the Holy See that unless Ambrosiano was protected, he would expose powerful men in Italian finance and politics. Calvi disappeared the day after those frantic phone calls to the Vatican, along with the briefcase packed with sensitive documents.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Leading the effort to solve the mystery of Roberto Calvi's murder has been Carlo Calvi, the banker's son who left Italy in 1977 and now lives in Montreal, Canada.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]His father, says Carlo Calvi, "was a dynamic businessman but not a good judge of people."[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Police and prosecutors have zeroed in on four suspects now on trial: Flavio Carboni; his former girlfriend Manuela Kleinzig; and Pippo Calo and Ernesto Diotallevi, two "fixers" with close ties to the Mafia.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]There are concerns, though, that the four could be scapegoats for a wider conspiracy, and that significant aspects of the case implicating the Vatican, government agencies, other banks and special interests could be conveniently ignored. The judge in the current proceedings, Mario D'Andra, has been vehement in demanding a swift trial.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]"Let's try to keep in mind that this is a trial about facts that happened almost 24 years ago," he declared. And Carboni's attorney, Renato Borzone has argued that there is no proof of his client's participation in any murder, charging Italian prosecutors with "relying on a phony testimony by turncoats" in order to make their case.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]On the opening day of the proceedings, Borzone told the court, "Today, a new battle begins to find the truth about Calvi's death.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Carlo Calvi theorizes that while mobsters may have executed his father, "the murder was organized by politicians. The Mafia had simply the role of carrying out the murder."[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Questions linger not only about who killed Roberto Calvi, but who ordered the murder.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]For more informative arcticles, go to Investigative Journal
[/SIZE][/TD]
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[SIZE=+1]Disclaimer[/SIZE]
 
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I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that I was on a timetable, or that I was obligated to reply to you at all, frankly. But, since you asked ever so nicely... ;)



[/U]As is yours. Do you have a point?
[/COLOR]
A student, but yes

Yes.

Yes.

Depends entirely on what you mean by flesh of Jesus. The modern Roman Catholic view of the Eucharist was certainly not universal, or even identical ANYWHERE, to the view held in the early church. Ignatius certainly doesn't offer a developed theory of the Eucharist, and most of what he DOES say is in response to Docetists who don't believe Jesus came to earth in bodily form at all.

Yep.

On the basis of apostolic authority, which progressively became more reliant on the Scriptures than on the men, as people became successively more generations removed from apostolic teaching.

Again, in so far as it taught what the Lord Jesus taught. As I said, you would be hard pressed to find a single church father who makes any argument of substance that does not find its foundation in the Scriptures. They didn't have a seperate authority, but the same authority - that coming from the apostles who were taught by Christ. The Scriptures very quickly became the authority on the basis that they were the more immediate access to that tradition, particularly after several generations passed, moving ito the Nicene era.

Yep.

Yep. But I suspect you and I have to different understandings of what that means ;)

Well, you haven't made your argument from Scripture all that much at this point. We've talked a lot of Ignatius, though.




Really? Apart from the fact that Rome and the Orthodox church don't believe the same things on a variety of issues (the Eucharist being one of them), they disagree profoundly on the most important issue bearing on your argument - the authority of the 'Petrine seat', as it were, over the rest of the church.

No, it doesn't prove this at all.

Nope, again.

Nope. If you're going to argue this, at least provide some actual evidence.

As I already said, nope. Otherwise, there would have been and would be no schism.



You've proved nothing. In fact what you're mostly doing is ignoring the substance of my previous posts, and then either reasserting points you've made before, or moving away on tangents.

You have yet to prove the priority of the Petrine seat in Rome in teaching and authority.
You have yet to prove an early church understanding of episcopal authority subsisting separately from scriptural and apostolic authority.
You have yet to prove and early church understanding of episcopal authority over and above scriptural and apostolic authority.

These are the essential points of what you need to establish - everything else is window dressing.


They ate the flesh of Jesus in the form of bread!
Your words .... Depends entirely on what you mean by flesh of Jesus. The modern Roman Catholic view of the Eucharist was certainly not universal, or even identical ANYWHERE, to the view held in the early church. Ignatius certainly doesn't offer a developed theory of the Eucharist, and most of what he DOES say is in response to Docetists who don't believe Jesus came to earth in bodily form at all.

I reply: The Church Jesus established had BISHOPS with the AUTHORITY to TEACH!! Thus the idea of "Scriptures ALONE" is a LIE! Martin Luther introduced the idea of "We do not need church, all we need is the scriptures" sixteen hundred years AFTER Jesus! These man made churches introduced the idea of symbolic communion!

Nick01 The Church Jesus established ATE the flesh of Jesus. You do NOT!!! Scriptures tell you; the early Church believed Jesus!
Scripture... So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup.29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

Nick01 You are again forced to twist the scriptures to say different!!! You cannot "Sin Against A Symbol"!

FACT: The Jews Jesus taught knew exactly what Jesus said..
52Then the Jews AND Nick01 began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

The Church Jesus established TAUGHT with the AUTHORITY to TEACH, coming from God!
Your words... Again, in so far as it taught what the Lord Jesus taught. As I said, you would be hard pressed to find a single church father who makes any argument of substance that does not find its foundation in the Scriptures. They didn't have a separate authority, but the same authority - that coming from the apostles who were taught by Christ. The Scriptures very quickly became the authority on the basis that they were the more immediate access to that tradition, particularly after several generations passed, moving ito the Nicene era.

I reply: Scriptures prove you WRONG.... "Go and TEACH all nations" & "I am with you ALWAYS"!

Jesus is ALWAYS with his CHURCH! His Church has BISHOPS, Jesus' Church eats the flesh of Jesus! His Church has AUTHORITY to TEACH all Nations!

Nick01 History proves you WRONG! You believe in "Scriptures ALONE!" Those Protesters trusting in the scriptures "Scriptures ALONE" MUST trust in themselves ALONE!!!!
THINK.. Use your head>>> "The TEACHING of Scriptures ALONE" forces >>YOU<< to become the scholar, if you trust ANYONE for information other then the scriptures, then you MUST reject the teaching of Scriptures ALONE is all you need for salvation!! Whack-Whack-Whack OH!

This teaching started by man: Forces you to become the EXPERT, in History, in Languages (Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic etc) in ancient customs, in scriptures etc etc...
THINK: If you trust anyone for information other then the scriptures then you MUST
reject "Scriptures ALONE for your salvation!!!!!!" You MUST reject the TEACHING of "Scriptures are all I need for salvation!

This LIE, this TEACHING of; "I do not need Church, I can find salvation on my own with JUST the scriptures" sends many Protestants to damnation!
Nick01 Thousands and thousands of man made churches! ALL these many churches claiming to have the ONLY TRUTH but none are the same!!!! All because of the teaching of "Scriptures are all man needs!"
HISTORY proves me right!!

Your many thousands and thousands of preachers are forced to become "Little Popes" teaching with authority!
Nick01 If you trust the teaching of your pastor then you MUST reject the idea of "Scriptures and Faith ALONE saves you!" It becomes "The Pastor, the experts in History, the experts in scriptures, the individual mans ideas of acceptance become what saves!!!"

Jesus established his CHURCH. He gave the Keys to Peter! Jesus' church will never fail the gates of hell will never win out!
The ONLY Church Jesus established cannot have root back to the "De-Formation".

IMPOSSIBLE for any man made church trying to RESTORE Jesus' body back to Jesus can be Jesus' Church! Jesus is ALWAYS WITH HIS CHURCH: Jesus' Church does NOT need to be restored! The Holy Spirit is FOREVER with Jesus' established Church, His church did not fail!

 
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If I named my dog "Bishop", would it give it any authority?
No.
Titles mean nothing. The Spirit that leads the men is all that matters.

All those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, who are given His Spirit and a seal,
these are the ONE CHURCH.
The head of the ONE CHURCH is Christ.

The Church is not a religious government, but the grouping of all individual believers.

DO YOU NOT KNOW WHAT THE WORD "CHURCH" EVEN MEANS?!?!
It means "the assembly".

When you think of "the Church", do you think of an organization? Then you are very and fully wrong.
The Church is the collective whole of all of those who have been redeemed by the shed Blood of Christ.
SolidGround I hope all is well..
I reply: HISTORY proves your view on salvation WRONG!

THINK: The Idea of "All man needs is the scriptures to find truth" forces each person to be the scholar!The Idea of "Scriptures ALONE is all that man needs" is an invention of Martin Luther SIXTEEN HUNDRED years after Jesus established his AUTHORITATIVE Church! Until Martin Luther the teaching was unheard of!!! FACT IS: This teaching is a TRADITION started by men. It is NOT found in the scriptures!

THINK: There were few bibles for the first seventeen hundred years, until the press! Bibles were costly works of art!! The One CHURCH Jesus established, the Catholic Church TAUGHT Jesus and salvation to the world! PROVING the idea of "Scriptures ALONE is all man needs" is a LIE with Satan involved in the forming of this teaching!

SolidGround There are thousands and thousands of man made churches today all because of Martin Luther's teaching of "Scriptures Alone"! ALL....
All these thousands of Churches claim to have the ONLY TRUTH!!
But none believe the same things.. Some reject the trinity, some reject Jesus is God, most reject Baptism and the flesh of Jesus, Sunday worship, even LOVE! All coming from the same scriptures all taught by these PROTESTING man made churches.

SolidGround To believe in "Scriptures ALONE" you are forced to reject the scriptures!
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
To my mind, it's always been a matter of common sense, whether one wants to base their beliefs on solely the reliable faith of Jesus Christ and His apostles, solid truth found in God's, Holy Spirit inspired scripture, that cannot fail, or start listening to corrupt men, who are adding to God's Book? And with a history of doing the works of the devil, fruits of lying and torture murder, at that? What is a good basis for faith, the New Testament, or an organization of men, whose Roman so-called church has produced heinous evils, such as the Inquisitions, which our Lord Jesus warns of, by likewise common sense?

Matthew 7:16-20 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

But if anybody wants to see a longer article, dealing with the legitimacy of Sola Scriptura, wants to see some finer points, here's a link that raises many of those points.

 
P

phil112

Guest
.....................Peter was the first pope Jesus spoke to him! ................
Making stuff up is how you displease God. Calling Peter a pope is make believe. Your religion has to twist, pervert, and totally ignore so much scripture to keep its evil ways it is unreal.
Catholicism claims the pope is an unbroken line of authority from Peter. Your popes were the driving force behind the murder of millions of Christians during the inquisition. Tell me right now - do you believe Christ approved of that? He had to, according to you, or that "line" would have to have been broken.

Paul got his gospel directly from Christ. Paul was chosen by God from his mothers womb to be the apostle to the gentile. Paul was such an authority that he got in Peters face and straightened him out when Peter was to be blamed because he was wrong. Your church belittles and rejects Paul teachings. The teachings that Christ Himself told Paul to give them.

You have no wheelbase for your false doctrine. I have made this offer before and I'll make it again: I have an authorized catholic book of doctrine and I'll go over it and demonstrate point by point the many errors. Care to defend your lies against the written word?
 

SolidGround

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Jan 15, 2014
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Since when does "belief in Christ" force someone to need to be a scholar?
A child can believe.
2 of you have called the Biblical view of Salvation through faith "gnosticism".
Please back that up.

I have not questioned your salvation. The Bible shows that a person can have doctrinal error and yet still be called a brother. This in itself is the opposite of gnosticism.



Authority comes through the anointing of the Spirit. Ordination is simply recognition of that anointing. Ordination has no authority in itself.

The Gospel is all that is needed for salvation. The assembly and fellowship of Believers helps us grow in the grace of our Lord. Milk and meat.
Both are needed.
The issue is that you have denied that the Church proceeded the institution of the Catholic Church, (including even the OT saints), and are proposing that the Church of Jesus Christ is exclusively Roman Catholic.

Surely the assembling of Believers (the definition of the Church) is necessary, and to forsake the assembly is to deny Faith,
but the RRC is not the whole of Believers,
and it's government is not the whole of all God appointed authority over His Church.

You have called for us to respect those placed in authority, yet you show no respect for the elders, deacons, pastors, teachers, and bishops of other denominations.
 
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Since when does "belief in Christ" force someone to need to be a scholar?
A child can believe.
2 of you have called the Biblical view of Salvation through faith "gnosticism".
Please back that up.

I have not questioned your salvation. The Bible shows that a person can have doctrinal error and yet still be called a brother. This in itself is the opposite of gnosticism.



Authority comes through the anointing of the Spirit. Ordination is simply recognition of that anointing. Ordination has no authority in itself.

The Gospel is all that is needed for salvation. The assembly and fellowship of Believers helps us grow in the grace of our Lord. Milk and meat.
Both are needed.
The issue is that you have denied that the Church proceeded the institution of the Catholic Church, (including even the OT saints), and are proposing that the Church of Jesus Christ is exclusively Roman Catholic.

Surely the assembling of Believers (the definition of the Church) is necessary, and to forsake the assembly is to deny Faith,
but the RRC is not the whole of Believers,
and it's government is not the whole of all God appointed authority over His Church.

You have called for us to respect those placed in authority, yet you show no respect for the elders, deacons, pastors, teachers, and bishops of other denominations.
SolidGround Good question..Since when does "belief in Christ" force someone to need to be a scholar?

I reply: There are thousands and thousands of man made churches all claiming they have the ONLY TRUTH!!
SolidGround not two of them believe the same!!! They all claim to "believe in Christ"!

Think without an "AUTHORITY" to point to the truth each person MUST decide for themselves what truth is!!!

If they go to anyone of help in deciding what truth is then they are trusting in the TEACHINGS of OTHERS and NOT...
Not Scriptures ALONE!!!

The idea of "Scriptures ALONE" scriptures and ONLY scriptures have the truth>>>> forces each person to become their own AUTHORITY!!

In reality with the teaching of "Scriptures ALONE" TRUTH becomes what each person will accept as true!
SolidGround there can only be ONE truth! 2+2=4

THINK: The de-formers replaced the TEACHINGS of the Church Jesus established, for many thousands and thousands of man made churches all claiming to teach the only truth!

The JW believes "Jesus is NOT God" because this is what their church teaches! The SDA believe "Saturday Sabbaths" because this is what their church teaches! The Baptist believes "Baptism does NOT save" because this is what the Baptist Church teaches!!! NO THING....

SolidGround Nothing has changed except: You have traded the One Church Jesus established with the AUTHORITY of God to TEACH for the thousands of man made churches with ZERO authority to teach a lick!

The idea of "Scriptures ALONE" first appeared sixteen hundred years AFTER Jesus.. It is Anti Church and UN-BIBLICAL!!
 

SolidGround

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Jan 15, 2014
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The majority of "Protestant" denominations view each other as brothers in Christ, and as all parts of His Body.

Those who reject basic Biblical truths OBVIOULSY don't hold Scripture as their final authority.
A person cannot deny a portion of Scripture and then claim "Sola Scriptura".
 
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Making stuff up is how you displease God. Calling Peter a pope is make believe. Your religion has to twist, pervert, and totally ignore so much scripture to keep its evil ways it is unreal.
Catholicism claims the pope is an unbroken line of authority from Peter. Your popes were the driving force behind the murder of millions of Christians during the inquisition. Tell me right now - do you believe Christ approved of that? He had to, according to you, or that "line" would have to have been broken.

Paul got his gospel directly from Christ. Paul was chosen by God from his mothers womb to be the apostle to the gentile. Paul was such an authority that he got in Peters face and straightened him out when Peter was to be blamed because he was wrong. Your church belittles and rejects Paul teachings. The teachings that Christ Himself told Paul to give them.

You have no wheelbase for your false doctrine. I have made this offer before and I'll make it again: I have an authorized catholic book of doctrine and I'll go over it and demonstrate point by point the many errors. Care to defend your lies against the written word?
phil112 Pointing fingers gets you no place!!!Your "De-Formers killed millions of Catholics.. The King of France for one. Your QUAKERS killed Old Ladies as witches!!!

FACT IS: The Catholic Church is FULL...
Full to the rafters with SINNERS!!! Clearly you are NOT a sinner and do not need saving! Catholic's sin, does not mean the Church is NOT holy!!

THINK: If the Body of Jesus is NOT holy then God would not be holy!
Paul was a CATHOLIC!!! Whack Whack Whack OH!!!
Paul answered to Peter the Chief Apostle the Key Holder!!

phil112 The Catholic Church has all of God' AUTHORITY to teach all nations; Scripture tells you so!
Only the Catholic Church was established by Jesus NONE OTHER!! ALL...
All other churches >>YOURS<< was started by a man!!! Luther, Calvin, King Henry, Joseph Smith, Russel, White, Knox... etc etc thousands and thousands of men and thousands and thousands of man made churches!! ALL...
All are forced to reject the words of Jesus to TEACH.. Jesus failed!! Jesus failed to establish a church!
Your man made churches MUST TEACH... Jesus lost his church he is NOT with his Church we us "De-Formers" must restore Jesus' body back to him!!!! Whack Whack Whack OH!!! See how silly it is but this is EXACTLY what you believe!!!!!

You believe "Satan somehow has overpowered Jesus; You MUST believe; Satan TOOK Jesus' Holy Church from Jesus and we NEED to restore Jesus' body for Jesus!!!!" To believe the TEACHING you MUST reject the words of Jesus! >> "I am with you ALWAYS" Matt 28!!
 

SolidGround

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Sola Scriptura does not mean that we forsake the teaching of the Word, such as the partaking of Communion and Baptism and confession of our sins.

It means that we reject any doctrine that goes against the clear teachings of Scripture,
such as the purchase of indulgences, making offerings such as prayers or incense to dead saints, or praying to anyone other than the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

It means that we reject the doctrines of Salvation by works or ceremony, not that we reject the ceremonies or neglect the works.

It means that we reject teachings that Jesus was anything less than God incarnate, and that God is one.

I have heard enough circular reasoning to know that this conversation is useless. If there was even a hint of a solid argument in favor of Sola Scriptura being somehow contradictory, then I would continue,
But your argument makes no sense from any angle.

The Word is clear. If it was not, then maybe you would have a point, but it is very clear in it's teaching.
 
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The majority of "Protestant" denominations view each other as brothers in Christ, and as all parts of His Body.

Those who reject basic Biblical truths OBVIOULSY don't hold Scripture as their final authority.
A person cannot deny a portion of Scripture and then claim "Sola Scriptura".
I am sure they do!!! view each other as brothers in Christ,
They have NO choice.. even they have acknowledged there are the THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of man made churches all claiming to have the ONLY truth!!

SolidGround Basic TRUTH.. Baptism saves!!! Baptism has always been taught by the One Church Jesus established! The Early Church Father's baptized with WATER to make for God his children!

SolidGround Basic TRUTH.. "The Bread and Wine >>ARE<< the flesh and Blood of Jesus!" This always has been taught as a truth, to have ETERNAL life Jesus must be eaten!
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Manand drink his blood, you have no life in you.54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

SolidGround Basic TRUTH... Confession of Sins to a Priest/Bishop!
21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

The Didache
"Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).


The Letter of Barnabas
"You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light" (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).


Ignatius of Antioch
"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

SolidGround
Basic TRUTH... Church has AUTHORITY!!!
Pope Clement I
"Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us [i.e., that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy" (Letter to the Corinthians 1, 58–59, 63 [A.D. 80]).

SolidGround Basic TRUTH is: Jesus established ONE CHURCH, The Holy Catholic Church and NONE OTHERS!!!!!!


 

SolidGround

Senior Member
Jan 15, 2014
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Galatians 2:11 shows Paul rebuking the "Pope". Scandal?
2 Peter also has Peter referring to the writings of Paul as Scripture.

You claim that Paul was under Peter? Show me the verse, and I will show you two more that declare equality among the Apostles, including Paul.